Author Topic: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO  (Read 2378 times)

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Offline SierraKuo

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21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« on: August 02, 2007, 02:03:30 am »
My 21 mo dd has never been a great sleeper.  She was starting to sleep through the night a couple of weeks ago, but then last week she started waking again within 5-10 minutes of being tucked in during the night.  This cycle of tuck-in, sleep, wake & scream would continue for up to an hour and a half.  For the first few days of this, we though it might be teething or something, so we gave her pain medication and tried to give a little extra soothing.  When she started asking for rocking (and water and lullabies) through the screaming, though, we figured we were being manipulated. 

So we started WI/WO Saturday night.  (We still give her pain meds, but three of the four teeth have already broken through.)  Things from then until now have just gotten progressively worse.  Her normal schedule is to wake between 7 and 7:40a, nap at 12:30p for an hour and a half to an hour and 40 minutes, then bed by 8p.  Since we started the WI/WO, the night wakings have gotten marginally better (last night she got up twice, and only required two WI/WO for each before she went back to bed), but everything else is falling apart.

Her naps were fine (she went down easily and slept through), but since starting WI/WO at night, the naps got shorter and shorter until she wouldn't go down for a nap today, and after finally going down, she only slept 45 minutes.  She has always gone down fine for her bedtime (with the occasional exception), but now she is taking between 10 to 30 minutes of WI/WO to go to bed.  And last night she woke up and hour and a half after bedtime and required another 25 minutes of WI/WO before she would settle again.  (This in addition to the other two night wakings mentioned.)

I don't know how much more of this I can take.  I know they say give it two weeks, but after 4 nights, what little I had going for me in her sleeping routine is gone.  I really feel like she is just manipulating me & my dh (she'll try calling for both, even though we don't switch in the middle of an "episode", and she try asking us to do different thing, like get water or rock or lullabies), and I wonder if going in there every time only fuels her crying because she knows she'll get us to make an appearance.

The only way we got her to sleep through the night consistently in the beginning (even though she has been on EASY since day 1) is to let her fuss it out around 10 months.  It wasn't that painful (she never fussed for more than 10-15 minutes, although her "fussing" cry sounds like other children screaming murder).  She quite sleeping through the night when we moved into our new house, but we've been here for 4 months now.  And she was starting to sleep through the night just a couple of weeks ago. 

Now that she is older, her cries are louder and more agitated, and when she uses words to call us in there it is hard to ignore, but if this WI/WO thing doesn't work (which it isn't so far), I am having a hard time seeing any other alternative to CIO.  I know some people go off on the "trust" issue, but to be blunt, I am tired of being guilted into doing something that isn't working for either my daughter or me.  I have enough built-in guilt as a mother.

If someone could PLEASE offer some advice, condolences, or just plain understanding and sympathy, I would appreciate it.  I am halfway through a second pregnancy and my dh works full time and has a major career exam coming up in a few months - we NEED her to finally sleep through the night consistently.
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Offline Layla

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2007, 02:59:27 am »
Hey there - can you tell me how you are doing the wi/wo?

With the nap - does she wake midway & is crying? Have you tried wi/wo to extend the nap? Do you offer her an earlier bedtime if her naps are only 45mins short (or no nap at all)?

How did she used to go to sleep? Was she rocked to sleep?

Quote (selected)
I don't know how much more of this I can take.  I know they say give it two weeks, but after 4 nights, what little I had going for me in her sleeping routine is gone.  I really feel like she is just manipulating me & my dh (she'll try calling for both, even though we don't switch in the middle of an "episode", and she try asking us to do different thing, like get water or rock or lullabies), and I wonder if going in there every time only fuels her crying because she knows she'll get us to make an appearance.
You really do need to give it more than 4 days to see the results. It can get worse before better, then worse again(regression) until she learns finally to sleep through again. It sounds to me though that she is just calling out for you/asking for things rather than crying, in which case I would let her be. What do you do/say when you go back???

Quote (selected)
Now that she is older, her cries are louder and more agitated, and when she uses words to call us in there it is hard to ignore, but if this WI/WO thing doesn't work (which it isn't so far), I am having a hard time seeing any other alternative to CIO.  I know some people go off on the "trust" issue, but to be blunt, I am tired of being guilted into doing something that isn't working for either my daughter or me.  I have enough built-in guilt as a mother.
Yes, there is a trust issue & CIO might make things worse. At the end of the day though - I/we can only give you advise & I can't physically stop you from doing something. I'm not playing the "guilt" card (having tried cio myself when my lo was just 14months) & 1 night later I knew it was not the way to go for me (or her!!!). I did wi/wo instead & having stuck to it, it worked great for us. I had a perfect sleeper before a new baby arrived, so thats what threw her off shcedule (along with switching from 2naps to 1). I was doing the wi/wo with a newborn next door crying her lungs out at the same time. Dh & I took turns as well.

I am really interested to hear what actually goes on when you enter the room, what is done & said, how long to do stay there & is she still crying at the end of your count? Is she crying at all or just calling out?

Post back & we'll help you get through this.
Layla :)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 03:01:00 am by Isabella&Jasmine's mum »



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Offline SierraKuo

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2007, 17:33:36 pm »
Here's how our WI/WO routine goes - we put her to bed like normal.  She gets a bath, storytime, kisses & hugs from both parents, and then dh is normally the one to rock her and tuck her in.  She is never rocked until she is asleep, just until she is settled and sleepy - usually around 5 minutes.  (This has been her normal routine for a long time - the crying right after being tucked in is new since WI/WO.)  After she is tucked in the first time, if she starts to cry, then one of us will start WI/WO.  (Whoever goes in keeps going in until the "episode" is over - we don't switch parents per "episode".)  What we do each time we go in is just open the door, stay by the door (it is a small room), ask her to lay down again and please settle down with no more crying, and then say I love you and good night.  We try to give her a little time to settle herself while we are there, but we won't stay more than a few minutes.  She usually lays herself down if she isn't too worked up.  We usually wait 15 to 30 seconds after she starts crying (or keeps crying) before we go in again, although if this is the 15th or so time we have had to go in there, sometimes we will give ourselves a couple of minutes to help us keep our composure without getting upset.

Yesterday's nap was the first time she woke up what I would consider midway (the others she just woke up 5 to 10 minutes earlier than the previous day), and yes, she was crying.  I tried WI/WO again for half an hour to try to extend the nap, but she was so worked up she wouldn't even lay down.  I ended up giving up because I had a doctor's appointment to go to.

During "good" episodes, she will stop crying before we leave, but will begin crying with about 5 minutes (or less) of us leaving the room.  Or she will begin to cry as soon as we leave and shut the door.  During the rougher episodes, she will be very reluctant to lay down and will continue crying even after she lies down.  If she just calls out our name, we don't respond.  If she is calling out our name and starts to cry, then we go in.  All requests I mentioned are given through the crying and tears.

Sometimes I wonder if she isn't crying more with the WI/WO than she would if I just let her fuss it out?  Should I be waiting longer between WI/WO?
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Offline shelliz

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2007, 17:59:31 pm »
Hi there!!

 Our babes are about the same age so I know exactly what you mean when you say you feel manipulated at times...LOL.  They are at that age where if they can just 'get you in the door' maybe she can get some more time with you (ie: water, snuggles, etc.)

WHen looking at your schedule I was thinking that since she is in the overtired cycle at the moment...could you put her down 30 minutes or even an hour earlier at night?   I can almost guarentee you that if you can do this for a few days that you will see alot of the trouble go away. When my dd gets 'off' on her sleep schedule, if I can move her nap time forward and/or her bedtime forward just a bit, it helps her catch up on lost sleep and get out of this viscous cycle.  My daughter lately (it MUST be the age...LOL) will take up to an hour to fall asleep. She will chat to herself, ask for more milk, ask for her bunny lovie, etc...  We have a video monitor which she doesn't know we have, and we have even seen her doing summersaults.  We try to offset her antics by laying her in her crib at least 30 minutes earlier.  THat way she has time to 'do her thing'!

As for the middle of the night thing...I really think that alot of that may go away if you can get her out of her overtired cycle.  It is AMAZING how easily they can fall into being overtired!!It is also really easy to miss the fact that they are overtired b/c at our lo's age...there is so much to do and to be practicing that they may not seem tired when in reality they are past that point.

Maybe you could give the earlier bedtime/naptime a try and see what happens?

GOod luck and hugs!

BTW...here is our schedule just for you to compare...

6:30 or 7:00  Wake
12/12:30 (depeding on wake time....always 5.5 hrs after wake even if she wakes at 6:00 I will put her down at 11:30)
6:45 or 7:00 bedtime. 

**If she took less than an hour and a half nap, I will put her to bed earlier. An earlier bedtime always helps us with nixing the night wakings and helps her not wake at an awful hour of the morning to start her day. Hope this helps!

 :) Shelby


Offline SierraKuo

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2007, 01:50:52 am »
Thanks for the support and encouragement.  This is some tough stuff to get through - for us and for the LO!

From what you are describing, maybe DD being overtired is a major issue.  If she is overtired, should I be doing the WI/WO to put her to bed?  Or should I give her extra help to get to bed?

I tried her naptime early today - she got up at 6:40a and wouldn't go down again, so I started in on a slightly extended nap routine and got her down by 11:20a or so without crying, and she slept for almost 2 hours, so that was great!!!   :)

Tonight didn't go so great, though we tried to get her in bed about half and hour earlier than normal.  We still had to do WI/WO for about 1o-20 minutes.  *sigh*  Two steps forward, one step back!
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Offline Layla

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2007, 01:57:47 am »
Hey there - I agree with Shelby in that an earlier nap & bedtime shoudl help her with the whole overtired cycle. I still think you can do wi/wo.




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Offline SallyDom

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2007, 05:35:22 am »
Hi there,

just thought I'd give a couple of thoughts - from the point of view of a mum recovering from 5 months of sleep hell, not from an expert!

When Dominic's sleep problems started he started going crazy if we even attempted to close his bedroom door, even now we leave it open a bit. Would this help your dd, maybe she would feel you were still there, if she could peak out the door, even if you're not actually there. We shut all the other doors on the landing so it is as dark as possible but there is still a fair bit of light around at bed time.

It does get worse before it gets better but you said you had a good nap time and then it took 10-20 mins to get her to sleep last night. I think that's great. If you think to a few days ago when you might have spent an hour and a half settling her and finally getting her off then 10 minutes is so much better than that.

You are probably so tired and busy that you may not see how great you are doing, think of each little step as a positive and keep telling yourself how great you (and dh and dd) are all doing. wi/wo is a bit like a foreign language to your dd and it will take a bit of learning but once she's got it, then you're sorted.

This might sound totally bizarre but I'm also pregnant (26 weeks) and am rubbish at remembering to do my pelvic floor exercises. I've got into the habit of everytime I walk out of Dom's bedroom (when doing wi/wo) I do a few pelvic floor squeezes before I go in again. So hopefully soon not only will I have a baby that goes to sleep, and stays asleep, easily, but my pf will be fab - then I'll have to remember to do them some other time!!!

Hope everything is going ok
Sally
x
Dominic Luke 29/03/06
Isaac (Zac) James 14/11/07

Offline SierraKuo

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2007, 16:18:29 pm »
Thanks for the positive encouragement - it is hard to see the forest for the trees sometimes!  I keep waiting for the day to come when I can put her to sleep and be able to count on her staying there, that I forget the little steps we might be making!

We've tried leaving the door open, and I would really prefer it that way, but we live in a noisy house with creaky floors that really seem to bother her.  And her door opens right out onto the stair landing under a skylight, so that's an issue.  And the bathroom door opens onto the landing too, so all of my (frequent!) bathroom breaks are broadcast loudly ... *sigh*  Thanks for the suggestion, though!

Yesterday's nap was great, but then her nighttime sleep took a step back - and in a new direction.  Maybe you guys can help me interpret what is going on?  She went to bed with only about 5 to 10 minutes of WI/WO, but then woke up around 10:30p all the way through about 5a.  This time there were no real drawn-out episodes (we only went back immediately a few times), but she would lay back down and be quiet for anywhere from 15 minutes to half an hour, but her longest stretch of sleep was only a couple of hours.  Also, it was less of real crying and more calling for mommy or daddy until she was on the verge of tears.  Should we respond to that or wait until it escalates into full-blown crying?  I felt somewhat manipulated, but I ended up going in.  Fueling the arguments for going in were the trust thing and the fact that I would prefer that she call for me instead of scream for me.  But then again, I don't want to be going in there at night at all!   :P  Where do those principles take a back seat to getting a good night's rest?
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Offline Lola

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2007, 18:24:54 pm »
you know what..this is going waaay off but my 23 month old took a turn at really lousy sleep patterns about 1.5 months ago too...
she's getting her 2 year molars...a month of not sleeping and I know (from experience) that wi/wo will only work if it's constant. i did it for 3 nights nad hse went back to normal on her own. It was her teeth..for like a month. DROVE me nuts. Thought i was going to lose it...up at midnight..taking 2 hours to get to sleep...screaming for mommy at night...horrible...
now I see white in teh back of her mouth on the right top and bottom adn she's been fine.
go figure...
we go to bed at 7pm and wake between 6:30 and 7am. when she's overtired, she won't GO to sleep...
hang in there...xxx

Offline shelliz

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2007, 14:36:45 pm »
HI again...
 
  For MY daughter...when she does one of those 5:00 am wakes it is usually do due to a too late bedtime.  Also...waking an hour (or so) after bedtimes usually indicates overtiredness. You may think I sound crazy...but it works like clockwork for us. After a rough night like that...put her down early for her nap.  If she was up at 5:00 a.m. without truly going back to sleep...maybe even try putting her down at 11:30 for nap. IF she doesn't take a good 2 hr nap...put her down early tonight.  JUST to get her out of this cycle.  If she is just calling your name and not really crying...try holding off. I know you don't want her to scream....but maybe she will go back to sleep (maybe :-\ ) IF she does begin all out screaming...can you just go in, don't talk at all, just cover her back up and walk out.  We do this over an over till she goes back. If it is relentless we will check her gums (maybe give her a teething tablet to rule out tooth pain or tylenol if that fails) and usually she will go back to sleep.

Good luck...keep coming back to fill us in!

Shelby


Offline SierraKuo

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2007, 15:18:17 pm »
Thanks for the feedback.  I have tried the earlier naptimes, and they have worked well the last couple of days.  I tried getting her to bed even earlier last night than the night before, and she only required two or three WI/WOs before she was asleep - yay!

But she is still on this new kick, same as the night before.  Before she was up from 10p until 5a (5a was when she finally fell asleep again - sorry for the confusion).  Last night it didn't start until maybe midnight until 5am-ish, and she was only up maybe 6 to 8 times instead of a dozen or more from the night before, but it still isn't great.  She only requires one to three WI/WOs (usually just one) before she dozes off again for half an hour or so, and she doesn't wake up crying, just calling out.  We are trying to just let her call out, and everytime we wait, it just slowly escalates in distress.  She is getting tylenol every night just in case, too.  Is this just manipulation?

I am still going to go with the earlier naptimes and bedtimes for the time being to see if that helps at all, but these new NWs are baffling me!
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Offline shelliz

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2007, 15:35:45 pm »
It sounds like it could be something else (maybe teeth or coming down with a cold ??? :-\ )  Usually when our's is up like that...there is a reason. Actually last night she pooped (usually doesn't poop after we put her down to bed) and she kept waking up and we didn't know why. We didn't go in as she was just fussing.  After about 4 or 5 wakings (w/in 15 minutes of each other) I finally went in to find she had pooped :-[

When she is waking up that often and it isn't normal for her...I would venture to say there is something else to it.  Is she due for anymore teeth? Lola might be spot on!!



Offline SierraKuo

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2007, 15:45:47 pm »
When DD first started waking like this, we thought for sure it was a cold.  But that was almost two weeks ago, and nothing has materialized - no runny noses, coughing, or anything.  Then we thought it was teething, and she has her eye teeth (canines) coming in, but they have all broken through.  She only has her last set of 4 molars to come in (all of the others are in), and I didn't think they were due in for awhile yet.  We've been giving her tylenol just in case, though.  When she woke up before with a cold or teething issues, she would always be crying or screaming.  These wakings with just calling out ... maybe it is teething and she just calls out instead of crying because of the tylenol and because she is older?
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Offline shelliz

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2007, 16:36:01 pm »
It is very possible she just wants to be with mommy and daddy :-\  If you feel that it isn't teeth or illness...then I would stick with your guns on the WI/WO.  Don't go in there if she isn't truly 'needing' you.  If she is just talking or fussing...let her do it. You don't want her to think that any peep will pull you all in there.  If she does scream at the top of her lungs, go in, do as little as you have to do...and then leave. It is incredibly repetitive...but it works. It may take a week or so since she is older...but keep at it and you can break the cycle.  You aren't giving her milk or a drink when you go in are you?  We made the mistake of doing that before and it caused these types of wakings. ANyting they can use to get us in there...they will do...LOL.  If all of her teeth (accept 2 yr molars) have actually broken through the skin already...then I would venture to say it isn't teeth. 



Offline Layla

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Re: 21 mo with NWs - seems to be getting worse with WI/WO
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2007, 23:23:19 pm »
This might be a crazy idea but do you think the tylenol might not be going down too well? How long are you supposed to use it for (how many days in a row???)

Keep the earlier nap & bedtime... she could just be needing to catch up on sleep before she can settle herself at night.



20/06/2012 - my angel baby