Some EASY questions

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you!

I will keep the bedtime bottle as I can see that this relaxes and calms her. Also I'm going to wean her off those night bottles too!! I was thinking of using the method where you dilute the milk over a period of time. Have you heard about that? Cold turkey definitely isn't something I'm wanting to do.

So EASY wise things are continuing to go wonky. If she doesn't fall asleep on the bottle then I am having a very difficult time to get her to sleep! She is a bit hyper before bedtime and once she had taken all of the milk she wants then she pushes it away but is crying and trying to struggle out of my lap. I actually have resorted back to APOP now as she gets so upset with put down when she is like that. Perhaps i should still continue with put down though as I don't want to mess things up further but I've never seen her so upset like she is getting. Would OT make it harder for her to settle with put down?

As I said our EASY is vey wonky. We are bedtime problem if she doesn't fall asleep on the bottle, 45 minutes wake ups after falling asleep (and she is hysterical) as well as early wake ups. This was our EASY for the day after a disruptive night of sleep:

W: 5:20
A: 5 hrs
S  10:20-12:15. (Took 10 mins to settle)
A: 3hrs 25 mins
S: 3:40 - 3:50
A : 3 hr 10 mins
S: 7 pm

As you can see our days are starting to get longer now. Thankfully she is still going down on her own in her cot after 5 hrs A time. She did cry a little more than usual though today but then settled herself quickly. She also was struggling to get out of my arms when I was carrying her up the stairs, similar to bedtime. I'm wondering if that OT too.

After her nap it isn't long until she rubs her eyes again but she is happy and content in mood! She falls asleep with ease for her 10 min catnap which is in the car and would certainly sleep for longer if she could. I was wondering if she perhaps needed longer than 10 mins but I'm not sure.

Any thoughts?

[Hayleys]

Oops forgot to say that she does have 3 teeth cutting her gums at the moment but I am giving her meds for this before bedtime.

Also last night when I went into her at her 45 min wake up into bedtime she was extremely hot so this may have been the cause of the wake up.

I'm just also thinking that maybe it's time to ditch the catnap and go for EBT. However, I'm not sure this really worked last time. My worry is that she has such a long afternoon without the catnap but then I guess she is OT with it anyway.

It's been a week now that she has been having 5 hrs of morning A time. Could I start increasing it in a week if you think this is the way forward?

[Hayleys]

Hi

Sorry to be serial posting again, I was hoping not to feel the need to post for a few dàys but we had a shocking night. I think I made our night far worse those by trying to APOP her back to sleep when she woke. The problem is that my old prop of the pushchair just doesn't work any more as she now fights to get out if it and also won't let me hold her to sleep.  I was reluctant to use PD last night though as recently she has been so upset and it has been taking a lot longer for her to settle. Could this be because she is OT? Would that affect her ability to self soothe?

I'm feeling like I don't have any other options but to settle her in this way now though but I'm aware that she is teething. I'll of course give her meds but feel awful during the PD sessions when she is so hysterical. I am still sitting by her cot so she knows that I'm there but she gets so upset during the process. Ugh, feels heartbreaking! If her routine was going well, I'd feel much better about doing it. I'm just winder ing what your experience was with PD? Did you have to keep re-doing it like this and your lo would be worse than he was before?

With regards to EASY, I think we may make more progress with a longer A time in the morning and perhaps just set the nap, do you think this would be the way forward? Just wondering how I would increase the morning A time, 15 mins for a few days like before? Of course only after holding her A time at 5 hrs for another week!

[Ima shel Alon]

I was thinking of using the method where you dilute the milk over a period of time. Have you heard about that? Cold turkey definitely isn't something I'm wanting to do.

Sorry, I didn't hear about it. I would think though that this way she will get too much fluid (water) during the night, not sure if that's ok... What I did was reducing the bottles by an oz every 3 nights and that worked very well for us.

As I said our EASY is vey wonky. We are bedtime problem if she doesn't fall asleep on the bottle, 45 minutes wake ups after falling asleep (and she is hysterical) as well as early wake ups.

The only thing that I think might be happening is like we talked about before, that she is ready for just one nap and that this CN in the afternoon is messing your BT. I would really drop that now. I know you are scared to do it, but I really think that's the only way. She will be tired for a while, but she will adjust, like any other toddler .

My worry is that she has such a long afternoon without the catnap but then I guess she is OT with it anyway.

I think it's a phase you will have to go through and push the AM A time a bit more so that the first A time is longer than the second one. Hopefully she will also sleep 2-3h at lunch time which will shorten the A time before BT. So to your question, yes, I would try and push the first A time by 10min and let her settle into it for a week.

I'm feeling like I don't have any other options but to settle her in this way now though but I'm aware that she is teething. I'll of course give her meds but feel awful during the PD sessions when she is so hysterical. I am still sitting by her cot so she knows that I'm there but she gets so upset during the process. Ugh, feels heartbreaking! If her routine was going well, I'd feel much better about doing it. I'm just winder ing what your experience was with PD? Did you have to keep re-doing it like this and your lo would be worse than he was before?

Hugs for the rough night . I think it's teething, sounds like it anyway. If there is AP that works for you now, but only if there is one, then it's ok for a few days. If you don't manage to settle her in any way then I would continue with sitting next to her or standing next to her and doing PD for a few days. After that if there are still problems with settling and PD seems very distressing then maybe she outgrew it? I would then try WI/WO (Walk In/Walk Out vs. The Gradual Withdrawal Method (HOW TO CHOOSE)) I don't have much experience with it though as I always used PD (again and again after having rough patches with teething/SA/moving to another country.

I think we may make more progress with a longer A time in the morning and perhaps just set the nap, do you think this would be the way forward?

Yes!
I think you can already increase it by 10min for another week.
Let me know how you are doing

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks for your support!

PD is a lot better now thankfully, we have dropped the catnap and it well could have been this which is making the difference.

Our EASY had been going well for a few days, but only because I think she needed to catch up on some sleep after the terrible night which we had on Friday.  She was sleeping for 11 hrs 30 mins and one day she even did a 2 and a half hour nap!  If only it could stay like that!

The last two days our nights are getting shorter, around 10 hrs - 10 hrs 30 mins and our nap is about an hour and a half.  I've now increased the morning A time to 5 hrs 10 mins, it has been like this for 3 days now! This is going well, in fact I think she could handle longer and is taking about 20 mins to settle herself (no crying).

This was our EASY for today.  Due to the early wake up, I went for an EBT.

W - 5:30 am
A- 5 hrs 10 mins
S - 11:00 - 12:30
A - 5 hrs 30 mins
S - 6:00 pm

I feel really cautious about the EBT as it didn't appear to work for us last time and she started waking at 5:00 am.  This made our A time in the afternoon even longer!!!  I'll see what happens in the morning but I'd like to try to stick to a 7 pm bedtime really.  Having said that though, she went to sleep at 7:00 pm last night and woke at 5:30 am so perhaps she needs it?

As we had a couple of good EASY days, I noticed that she could handle a 5 hr A time before bed without waking at any point after 45 mins.  However, if it was 5 hrs 30 mins then she would wake.  I'm so keen to set a nap time and bed time for her.  Do you think we are close to doing this, obviously I don't want to give her too much of a push though!

[Ima shel Alon]

I think that right now there is no way around an EBT, there will just have to be days of that.
If you can push her A time in the morning even more then great, that will push her nap and the second A time wil;l not be so long, which is what I think causing the OT EW.
After you push the nap a bit I would try and set it and would set BT as well.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks! So I've been using EBT when necessary. Her EASY varies from day to day at the moment. She has had nights when bedtime has been 7 pm and she hasn't 't woken until 6:15 am, which is fab! But then another times going to bed at 7 pm again and waking at 5 am! Last night she fell asleep at 6:15 pm and woke at 5:15 am.

I can see that she is coping better with one nap a day now though and more often than not she is not waking within 45 mins of going to bed. This has really improved and she will generally sleep through even if she has had 5 hrs 30 mins of A time before bed, which was causing her to wake before.

So with regards to her morning A time I have pushed this by another 10 mins to 5 hrs 20 mins. This has been for 4 days now. However, I'm not sure if she needs more than this as it is taking her about 30 mins to settle, I'm wondering if she is not tired enough! The other thing is every day now as she has had lunch before her nap she has pooed whilst standing in her cot soI have had to change her. I still feel that she is perhaps UT though and this is why it is taking her a long time to fall asleep. Do you think I should push it more or just try to set the nap now? When setting the nap, do I need to take into account what time she wakes in the morning, as generally she is waking anywhere from 5-6 am.

Any suggestions?

[Ima shel Alon]

How long is she napping for?

I think I would set the nap now IIWY, I am not sure it takes her so long to fall asleep because she is UT... It could be OT as well or OS. When I did it I didn't take under account when was WU, I just set it and set BT and only on really hard days I offered the nap earlier.

[Hayleys]

She has been mostly having a nap for an hour and a half. Some days, nearer to 2 hrs but generally not. Today though she only slept for 1 hr 20 mins. You could well be right about being OT as she is at the moment and generally is very tired in the morning, especially if she wakes at 5 am.

What time do you think I should set the nap for. I remember you said you started with 11:30 am, should I do the same. It would be a long A time in the morning though if she wakes at 5 am. But so can really see what you mean now by the fact that she she be OT but then get used to it!

Also she has had a few bad nights due to teething, I think. I haven't started night weaning yet but I think things may have settle a little as she is not putting her fingers in her mouth all day like before. In recent months, I have got in a real mess with feeding her at night and she is now consistently having 2 bottles and waking around every 4 - 5 hours for one. I was thinking of weaning her from them one at a time . Starting with the first one she has around 11 ish. Did you have to wean more than one bottle? Do you think I should do one at a time?

[Hayleys]

Also forgot to ask, when I set the nap should I set bedtime for 7 pm and not do EBT anymore? And do I just let her sleep for as long as she needs in the morning or should I be waking her at 6 am or not later than 7am?

[Ima shel Alon]

Can you give more details about the 5AM WU? Is there crying to she just lays there? What are you doing to settle her or you just start the day then?
If she is not crying then I wouldn't even go to her, just let her rest in her cot and hopefully she'll fall back asleep. IF she is crying I would do PD for the EW, but would defo not start the day then.
If she lays in bed and is cooing and chatting she still gets some rest, yk? And then your A time till 11:30 will not be that long. What do you think?
I wouldn't set BT just yet, I would more go with the flow on the one and see how it goes. Would you say that EBT is working for you? Is she tacking on sleep?
In the morning I would just let her sleep if you can. Perhaps not after 7:30-8, but I would give her a chance to catch up on sleep.

Re the NF I think we talked about it before and I really think it's time now to get rid of them. It will give all of you a better opportunity to sleep. IMO it's easier to wean all of them gradually than to fight her and do PD when she wakes up at 23, yk? But that's me, you need to do what is right for YOU.

[Hayleys]

Hi!

So with the 5 am wake up, she usually wakes chatting. I leave her and then after 20 mins, she isn't crying but shouting/grizzling. This I when I have been going into her and starting the day. It's really tricky at that time in the morning as she I don't want to disturb my husband too much as he has work the next day. Also I have been giving her a bottle at 6 pm and she falls asleep at about 6:15 pm so this is only short of an 11hr night. She is happy whilst awake, sometimes showing signs of tiredness later into the morning. If you think I should respond with PD when she is shouting/grizzling, then I could but it feels more like she is calling me to get her up more than struggling to go back to sleep, not sure though.

However, yesterday after going to sleep at 6:15 pm again she actually woke at 4:30 am. She was crying then so I went in and did PD with her. It took an hour for her to fall back to sleep but she did thankfully and slept for 45 mins! I was so pleased that she went back to sleep but she was crying when she woke, during PD she started being chatty as she was trying to settle herself.

In response to your question, I don't think EBT is working for us. She is still only doing an 11hr night at the most so a I don't think she is tacking on extra sleep. The most she has ever slept is 11 and a half hours but that was a while ago.

I don't know if this is possible at this stage but it would be really good if we could try a 7 pm bedtime again and her to wake closer to 6 am as I am going back to work in 2 weeks!

So, it has been 5 days now that she has been having a set nap time at 11:30 pm. I've noticed that she tends to get more upset when I initially put her in the cot and takes longer to settle and cries more than before whilst doing so. She has done a mix of 1 hr 20 and 1 hr 30 sleeps. Unfortunately no longer than this at the moment.

With regards to her night feeds, yes we did talk about it before. I just wanted to clarify if I could wean her from two bottles at the same time. Also the other thing is more often than not she wakes for two bottles but some nights it is just one. As it is not always consistent, I'm just wondering what I do with regards to the quantities of milk. So if she had had two nights of 4 ozs and then doesn't wake the next night but does the following should I still drop down to 3 oz's or give her another 4 oz bottle. Hope that makes sense?

The other thing is she is teething terrible at the moment I can see that she had a molar coming down now and her gums elsewhere are terrible swollen. The last few days she had not been eating much at all and refusing a lot of solids. This is putting me off doing the night weaning as I'm worried about her being hungry during the night. Do you think I should postpone it?

[Ima shel Alon]

Do you think I should postpone it?

Yes, I would wait a few more days, but only a few I would offer 4oz for 3 nights if she wakes up or not and the next 3 nights 3oz. If you wait for her to wake 3 nights in a row till you decrease the volume you might wait forever .

So, it has been 5 days now that she has been having a set nap time at 11:30 pm. I've noticed that she tends to get more upset when I initially put her in the cot and takes longer to settle and cries more than before whilst doing so. She has done a mix of 1 hr 20 and 1 hr 30 sleeps. Unfortunately no longer than this at the moment.

I think in general she is UT (because of the chatting in the early morning) but she goes down for this nap a bit OT. Don't worry about, it's fine, she will adjust.
If EBT doesn't work then we need to push BT to your desired time. Could you try like 3-4 days to do BT at 18:30 and then move it to 19? Hopefully this will help with the 5AM NW as well.
When you are at 19BT and she still wakes up at 5 then we can try W2S for about a week and if that doesn't help then I really think you'd need to do PD (and only go in when she is crying).

Hugs, hun, 5AM WU is a killer, but you have already made such a huge progress the last few months. She is lucky to have you

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks, that's such a lovely thing to say!

Well, we do seem to be making really good progress now.  She is going down for her 11:30 am nap much better now and is not crying or taking as long to settle like before.  In the last 4 days, she has done a 2 hrs nap, 2 hr 25 mins nap and two one and a half hour naps.  After sleeping for 2 hours or more she seems a lot more refreshed, but still tired at bedtime. 

The morning wake up has improved too.  When she went to sleep at 6:30 pm she woke around 5:20 am.  Last night she fell sleep at 6:50 pm and woke at 5:50 am this morning.  I really hope that this continues now and it isn't a one off!

When do you think I should think about moving the 11:30 am nap to 12:00 pm?  After waking up at 5:50 am this morning she didn't seem so tired at 11:30 am.  Having said that it did only take her 10 mins to settle and also she may not continue to wake around this time.  She just seems very tired at bedtime and the last few days she has been a bit teary before I start her bath etc.  This is very unlike her!  Thankfully, the wake up 45 mins into her sleep seem to have stopped now, which is so good!  When she is so shattered at bedtime, she tends to fall asleep really quickly on her bottle and I'm just concerned that she many not be getting enough.  Her teething seems to have eased now so I'm going to start the bottle weaning tonight!  I'm really hoping that it is a smooth process and I don't have to start doing PD in the night.

[Ima shel Alon]

That's indeed great progress! WTG mommy and WTG LO!

I wouldn't change anything right now. When things get rough again you can try and push the nap to 12, but for now I would leave it.
It sounds to me that your LO is like mine - EBT doesn't work and no matter what the night is 11h long. That's why when you put her at 18:30 she wakes at 5:30 and when you put her at 18:50 she woke up at 5:50. I would try and push BT to 19 and set it then and hope for a 6AM WU. I know that she is OT at BT, but there is not much we can do about it right now, other than not changing anything and setting BT so she could have a chance to set her body clock.

Good luck with weaning! I am sure it will be fine if you do it gradually.