Some EASY questions

[Hayleys]

Hi

I'd just like some help with an EASY schedule for my little one who is about to turn 6 months in a few days.  Up until now she has been doing short naps during the day, so I haven't been able to establish anything really.  She is an independent sleeper though (thanks to the PU/PD method and help on the sleep forum).  I'm so happy to say that she has now consistently also started to do some long naps, which is fantastic!  It means that it hopefully should be easier to stick to more of a routine.  Fingers crossed these long naps continue, it is still early days.

I just have a few questions:  Firstly for her catnap just before bedtime, what A time should I be working towards?  Her other activity times throughout the day are 2.25 - 2.5 which I believe is age appropriate.  She has two naps in the day usually about 1 and a half hours each.  When I work with these A times as well as her sleep cues, she always goes to sleep without a problem.  However, sometimes the evening can be more of a struggle for her and I think it's because her A time isn't right and she may at times be either UT or OT.  I've tired to play around with it, but not really sure what is the best time to aim for? 

Also, the other problem which I have is once she goes to sleep in the evening, she always cries after a time (the time can vary).  I have to try to resettle her back to sleep.  She usually will settle quite quickly but after a time she will cry again, so I find that I am running up the stairs every so often for as long as an hour to an hour and a half.  This has always been a problem since I tried to establish a bedtime when she was around 3 months.  It seems she is struggling to get into a deep sleep and in recent weeks it has got worse (around the time when she started to have some longer naps and begin to be an independent sleeper).  Not sure if there is a connection, but I thought I'd mention it. I don't think these are mantra cries, if they are they are a lot louder and harder than usual and I feel I need to place my hand on her and tell her that everything is ok.  This does more often than not seem to help her to resettle, but I have to do it very gently so I don't disturb her too much.   It was suggested in the sleep forum that if I need to then I can do the PU/PD method to help her transition into a deeper sleep.  I just want to make sure though that it is not routine related and it may be that the problem can be rectified with a tweak to her EASY.  I've also noticed that she tends to like to gravitate to a later bedtime and wake up time.  She always seems refreshed and happy when she wakes at 8:30 am.  If she wakes before then, she tries to get back to sleep and if she can't she will wake crying.  I've also noticed that the later her bedtime is then she will usually cry less in her early evening sleep or be far more easy to resettle.  Do some babies just prefer a later bedtime of around 8-9 pm with a wake up time of 8 - 8:30?  I'm happy to just go with what works for her but just want to try to get some answers to my questions. 

Any input really appreciated!

[yufeiisme]

Is your lo easily resettled after waking up after bedtime? I have friends whose babies were unable to fall deep asleep due to discomfort aka gas or reflux. If that is ruled out, it could be overtired during the day or even under tired?
As for bedtime, my DD is ALWAYS an early riser, no matter what time she goes to bed, she would always wake up at six ish( happily). So if that is what works for you bub, I'd say go for it. 8 is not late late yk? I'd kill to have my bub sleep till 8 if she would ever:P

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks!  Yeah I don't mind the later wake up time and 8 - 9 pm is not too late either!  Can anyone give me an idea on what A time I should be working towards after her end of the day catnap which usually lasts about 40 mins? 

I am beginning to think her waking is perhaps an OT issue but I'm just not sure.  I don't think it is wind or reflux.  It doesn't sound like a pain cry.  How would I know otherwise?

[yufeiisme]

For me I just felt there was sth not quite right with DD, because no matter how I adjust her routine, she never slept well, it felt like something was bothering her, she constantly gaged and had disturbed sleeping day and night. What was she like when she wakes up from nap, what's her crying like?

 And with O/T, ususally babies will settle eventually, but with pain they won't no matter what you do. HIH? Even mantra cry can change for the same baby as they grow. My DD's mantra cry used to be like humming, and now she screams until she finds her finger....

[Hayleys]

Ok, thanks that's helpful!  I think it is probably just an OT issues as she can easily be resettled!

Does anyone know what A time I should be aiming for at the end of the day after her catnap?  I'm hoping that if I get that right then maybe she will be more settled during her early night sleep?

[Ima shel Alon]

Does anyone know what A time I should be aiming for at the end of the day after her catnap?  I'm hoping that if I get that right then maybe she will be more settled during her early night sleep?

This is a tricky question as it's different from baby to baby. Some babies need a full A before BT, some need a bit longer and some will go to bed fine no matter how long their A is. My DS was like that, it doesn't matter how long was the A, even if it was 45min he would go to bed no problem. I think you would just need to try some things out and see what works for your baby.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you for your response! I'll just keep experimenting then!

I've always had problem with her waking during her early evening sleep.  Do you know if this is common at this age, she has just turned 6 months.  I'm hoping that this may change with age, just as how she has been able to start to take longer naps recently.

[Ima shel Alon]

So she always did that? NW that occur in the first part of the night usually indicate OT - either from the day or just in BT.
If her A is age appropriate and gives you restorative naps (1.5-2h) then those NW should go away and if they don't then they could be habitual. Is it always at the same time?

[Hayleys]

Hi

Sorry I haven't posted for back for quite sometime, I could really do with some more of your advice as similar issues are still occurring!!

Well my little one is now going to be 9 months in a few days and I'm having problems establishing an effective EASY routine.  I dropped the catnap quite sometime ago and she now has two naps in the day.  I had a lot of problems dropping the catnap and I ended up feeding her to sleep on the bottle for her night sleep (all of her naps she was going to sleep independently though).  Anyway now I want to rectify this and get her down to sleep on her own.  Her activity time is at the moment is 3hr 40 mins.  Does that sound age appropriate?

There are a couple of problems which I've been finding.  With a 3 hr 40 min A time, its hard to fit in 2 good length naps into a 12 hr day.  I've been experimenting with her A time before bed and it seems that after a good sleep she does need a full A time so then again it makes the day harder.  Does this sound like a familiar problem?

Anyway, over the last two days I thought I would try something a bit different.  She seems to be more tired in the morning so I thought I'd see if she would be receptive to a shorter A time.  It was actually only 2 hr 30 mins as she was rubbing her eyes on both days, quite short though I know.  She went down for her sleep without a problem (no crying at all, happily babbling and then fell asleep).  She slept for 1 hr 20 mins on the first day and then 1hr 15 mins today.  For her second nap I kept the A time to 3hr 40 mins.  She slept for 1 hr 20 mins on the first day and today she slept for 1 hr 15 mins today.  The first day she was hard to settle though and did cry and needed me to intervene.  I thought that perhaps she was a little OT, not sure though.  Today also she cried a little but not nearly as much!

So then, for bedtime again I kept the A time to 3 hrs 40 mins.  The first day she went down like a dream, no crying whatsoever.  I was thrilled and thought that maybe at long last I may have found a routine which works for her.  However, today at bedtime she did not go to sleep easily at all.  She initially went into her cot fine and was babbling away,. she then went quite and I thought she was going to drift off but no she started crying (so I intervend with words and a hand on her back).  This was followed by more quietness and lots of eye rubbing and crying.  Perhaps OT, I thought.  Anyway in the end I rocked her to sleep as 45 mins had passed.  I know that she can fall asleep on her own, I think I just need to get the timings right for her. Is that how it works with independent sleepers?  Would they struggle getting to sleep if OT or UT, or has my bottle feeding to sleep at bedtime during recent months created this problem?

Regarding her early night wake crying (as mentioned in my previous posts) this is still occurring, I think it may be taking less time to settle her now though. Usually it occurs any time between 30 - 45 mins after falling asleep.  Interestingly last night it was after 45 mins but tonight she has not woken at all.  Her A time before bedtime was 4 hrs as she could not get to sleep until I rocked her. Still not sure why she has been doing this.  It is quite rare for her not to cry during this period.

I hope the way I have written about my EASY makes sense.  She has woke at 7:30 on both days and I tried to get her to sleep for 8 pm.  So it was a 12 and a half hour day.

The other thing I'm wondering is if a 1 hr 20 min and 1 hr 15 mins considered to be a short nap.  If so should I be reducing the A time afterwards and again if so by how much.

Any advice really appreciated!!!!  I really want to try to get this sorted out!!!

[Ima shel Alon]

Her activity time is at the moment is 3hr 40 mins.  Does that sound age appropriate?

Yes, a bit on the high side, but very normal. If you look here: chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months at the last sample, there's a baby there that is doing 3h for first A time and has a short nap and then 3.5h A time before second nap and before BT.
You are right, when A times are getting that long then one can't fit anymore 2 full naps. My DS did it by himself, but when he was 9m old he only CN in the afternoon. IIWY I would be looking at shortening one of your naps so your day fits. So rather shorten one of the naps than A time.

Would they struggle getting to sleep if OT or UT, or has my bottle feeding to sleep at bedtime during recent months created this problem?

Is this something you stopped in the last few days? If you did, then it could be that she was fighting BT because she got used to the bottle. But I am not sure really why you stopped with it. BT bottle is the one that most of us DO give and let LO fall asleep with as it helps them so much to start the night in a good way, yk? If you are concerned that she will get used to feeding to sleep then you can still offer a bottle and then do a nappy change or a lullaby and only then put her down.

The other thing I'm wondering is if a 1 hr 20 min and 1 hr 15 mins considered to be a short nap.  If so should I be reducing the A time afterwards and again if so by how much.

1:15h and 1:20h naps would usually be UT for most babies, but they are very close to what one is aiming for, I wouldn't be so worried about it. Like I said I would try and shorten one of the naps and not the A time. And I could imagine it could work better with the PM nap, so you give a full A time in the morning, then have a full nap, full A time and a shortish nap. The, what could be happening is that you'd need to shorten the A time before BT, but this is something you'd need to experiment a bit.
Of course you can also try and cap the AM nap (that would also help with the 2-1 transition which is coming your way) and then you'd need to experiment what kind of A she'd need, it's very different from baby to baby.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you so much for such a quick response and you've given me much food for thought!!

OK, so I will definitely take your advice and try to cut back on the PM nap and not on the morning activity time, if you think that is advisable. 

The only thing is she slept incredibly well last night.  No early night wakes which is a real achievement!! Also she will usually wake at times in the night for one bottle or crying as it appears she has flung herself around in her cot and wakes (not really sure what she does though).  Last night although we had a rough start, she didn't wake up at all until 6:00 am.  She then drained a bottle and went back to sleep until 7:25 am - heaven.  She sleeps in her own room, but I have the monitor next to my bed so I can hear her and I didn't hear a peep!  Of course it may be coincidence or she was exhausted with such a long time until she eventally slept after being put to bed.  Plus the bottle which she drained 45 mins before being put down may have contributed to such a good night too!  Today she has gone down perfectly for both of her naps (I have only just read your reply so I did the same A times as yesterday).  Anyway just thought I'd mention it all in case it holds any significance.

OK, so from tomorrow I will stick to the full A time of 3 hr 40 mins.  I have found in the past that recently this will usually give her a longer nap than 1hr 20 mins, so fingers crossed as I think she will need it if I cap the PM nap.  Would you say that I should be hoping for a nap anywhere between 1hr 30 - 2 hrs?  Also just checking for the PM nap, you do mean to actually wake her up don't you? How long should the PM nap be?  I'm also a little bit nervous about how much A time to give her before bedtime as I don't want her to be OT or UT  If she short naps then I'm guessing it will be less then her usual A time.  Should I try to decrease by 20 mins and then 30 mins etc until I find a time which works, any suggestions?

I'm so pleased that you said that lots of mums do actually feed to sleep at bedtime.  My reason for stopping this (and yes it is something which I have done in the last few days) was that I was worried that it had become a prop.  Also I can't burp her before putting her down and I worry a bit about that.  I was also trying to discover how much A time she needed before bedtime and I thought that the bottle may not be giving me an accurate picture as it may relax her and make her fall asleep earlier than what she would do otherwise.  Like I mentioned, I gave her the bottle 45 mins before bedtime so she wouldn't fall asleep on it and I could find out what her A time is before bedtime.  I am still a bit worried that if I do feed to sleep then it may become a problem in the future.  This is not your experience then, no?

Thanks again!!!

[Hayleys]

Hi

Just wanted to say that after her going to sleep independently for her two day naps, again I had difficulty at bedtime! I gave her a bottle 10 mins before she was due to go down, thinking she may well fall asleep on it. She nearly did but then pushed herself upright to burp. I then sang her sleep song and put her down! She started babbling and then throwing herself around the cot and crying! I intervened and in the end rocked her to sleep in the pushchair like last night!

I feel so perplexed as to why bedtime has become an issue! Maybe the short A time at the beginning of the day is affecting this? Before I was giving her a bottle a little past her full A time before bed, so I was sure she would fall asleep in it. Just don't know if it would have been an issue then or not.

On a very big positive note it has been an hour now and she has not done her usual early wake ups around the 30-45 min mark!!! Amazing!!! Hope I'm not speaking too soon!! This may very occasionally happen but has never happened two days in a row!! On both days when she hasn't done this I have had problems with bedtime and she has fallen asleep much later than her usual A time. So this has got me wondering if the early wake ups may be an under tired issue, and the problem with settling at bed time too!! Ummm...........

[Ima shel Alon]

Of course it may be coincidence or she was exhausted with such a long time until she eventally slept after being put to bed.

I think so, yes. But how did today go? You said that you had the same routine like yesterday, so how was BT? Did she fight it again or went down ok? If she went down ok and slept well tonight then I would actually stick to what you did in the last two days. Sure, it's not what's usually works, but every baby is different and BW is all about listening to YOUR baby's needs.

Would you say that I should be hoping for a nap anywhere between 1hr 30 - 2 hrs?

A restorative nap would be anything more than 1.5h. At her age and because you need to fit everything into your day I wouldn't let her nap more than 2h.

Also just checking for the PM nap, you do mean to actually wake her up don't you? How long should the PM nap be?

Yes, I do mean to wake her up. It's very hard to say how long to let her sleep. My DS did 1.5-2h in the morning and then 45min in the afternoon but his A time before BT was very short. I could put him 2h later to bed for the night and he was good with that. Perhaps you can try 1h and see how she's doing?

I'm also a little bit nervous about how much A time to give her before bedtime as I don't want her to be OT or UT  If she short naps then I'm guessing it will be less then her usual A time.

That's the trickiest part, isn't it? I would for sure not give a full A time. Shortening it by 20min sounds like a good idea and what you could also do is look at what time she woke up in the morning and aim for BT to be 12h later - that's if she is usually a 12h night-12h day kinda girl, many babies are doing 13h day-11h night.

Also I can't burp her before putting her down and I worry a bit about that.

Is gas still a problem? I found that in the early months it was an issue for us and I had to burp after every NF but when DS was older and his stomach matured then it wasn't a problem anymore.

I am still a bit worried that if I do feed to sleep then it may become a problem in the future.

I never found it to be a problem, but it was my experience, yk?
When DS was 1.5yo I changed the BT routine so he would lay down elevated, hold the bottle and drink by himself (till then I held it for him in a dark room, can you believe it?) and I would sit next to him and read him a story. When he was ok with that we changed to sitting on the chair with me, drinking his bottle and me reading a story and later on we changed it that we do the above and then go brush teeth so he doesn't fall asleep straight after drinking the milk. I found throughout the last 2 years with him that the more I wait the easier it gets, because he is older, he can cope more with change and understand more. But every baby is different AND! It's not only what works for your LO, but for you as well .
Let me know how you are doing.

Posted at the same time as you, going to have a look at your last post.

[Ima shel Alon]

I feel so perplexed as to why bedtime has become an issue! Maybe the short A time at the beginning of the day is affecting this?

Or maybe too much day sleep that is stealing from night sleep?
And I think she stopped waking after 45min (which could well may be due to UT) because it takes her so long to fall asleep and she is exhausted.

Forgot to ask how are you doing with solids? Is she taking 3 meals a day? And is she eating well?

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you again for your detailed response!

So last night she woke at 11:40 pm and I gave her a bottle.  She did seem hungry and had a fair amount.  I then put her back into her cot and she seemed to have drifted off to sleep.  However, 10 mins later she was crying and throwing herself around in her cot.  She seemed very frustrated, like she wanted to sleep but just could not.  As the pushchair was already in her room from the difficult night time she had had, I put her in that and tried to rock her to sleep.  She seemed to be trying and had her eyes closed and was by no means wide awake.  However a few times, I tried to transfer her in her cot when it looked as if she had drifted off and this woke her.  I did eventually manage to transfer her but this was an hour and a half later than when she had originally woken!  This is highly unusual and I don't ever usually have such a long time to settle her at night if she wakes, maybe 10 mins max (unless she is unwell).  So not a great night, but she did then sleep solidly until 7:10 am and she woke happily babbling in her cot.

This morning she did seem tired and I was in two minds as to what time to put her down for her first nap.  However, she seemed to perk up and I actually kept her awake for a full A time of 3 hrs 40 mins.  I thought it would be best as in response to your e-mail, bedtime had not gone well, so thought I needed to change the morning routine back to a full A time before a nap.  Also very unusual for her to have a night wake like she did in the night.  She went down for the nap without a problem.  Just waiting to see now as to how long her sleep is.  I'm crossing my fingers for a restorative nap!!!

So in response to your questions, gas isn't usually a problem.  Like you, it was in the early months, but have not had any recent problems as such.  It was on my mind though as last week she woke after 20 mins of sleep at bedtime when she had fallen asleep on the bottle.  She was quite upset and my husband said that while she was holding her she was burping.  Usually she will burp without a problem.

Solids have been a slow process for her actually.  I started to try to wean her at 6 months.  She was not intersted at all and did not accept anything in her mouth for several weeks.  She then seemed to want some food but had a big relapse while I think she was teething and for about 2 weeks she did not want anything put in her mouth.  (no teeth sprouted but she was very grizzly during the day and not herself at all).  Actually I can now feel her first tooth under her gum, so I'm thinking that it won't be long until it pops up! Then with regards to weaning she suddenly was a lot happier in the day and started to want the food.  Now all considering I think she is doing fairly well.  She does have solids 3 times a day but sometimes she only wants a few mouth fulls and other times she will happily eat quite a large amount - just depends really!!  She still wants her milk and is taking a good amount for her.

OK, so with regards to how things have been over the last few days, like you suggested, I'm wondering if she may be getting too much day sleep.  If this is the case then she has consistently been having 2 hr and 35 mins!  I'm just thinking that if she does have a restorative nap now and then a catnap it could well equal this, no?  Or would it be better as she would be more tired at bedtime due to the catnap!  Umm ..... perplexed again!  Any thoughts?