Need to make a decision (sorry long)

[Bryony]

Emma - just wanted to give you a BIG HUG!!!  I don't have any answers for you right now as I haven't been following your "journey" - but I really feel for your frustration and exhaustion.  Try not to take one night as being an indicator of it all going downhill though (easier said than done, right?!) as sometimes "one-offs" happen, even to the best sleepers. It sounded like you had made massive progress and that isn't going to "go away" after one bad night

HUGS

Bryony

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks but its really getting hard to convince DH to stick with this.......going to check out your post to see how things are for you

E x

[Peek-a-boo]

What Bryony said is just right.  Don't let one night dash your hopes.  Now that you've gone a bit without feeding her at night (last night excepted) perhaps it would be okay for you to take over again.  There has been a lot going on--colds, etc.--so set backs happen, but try to focus on the over all trend. 

Sorry, I know that I asked this not long ago, but you could you post your current routine again?  I'll see if I can get somebody to take a peek at it.  Don't want to be overlooking a routine issue that could be complicating matters.   

[bethanys mummy]

Hi all

last night was a bit better... well she woke 4 times, but twice in the evening and twice at night, 3 easy to get back to sleep, the other tougher at half and hour but better than 3 hours....

I think she has been tired from the cold etc and then the NWs of course so yesterday gave her a very short day (8.30 am to 7.15 pm) with shorter A times. Similar today but slightly longer A times. Also one cheek went red / warm yesterday which for DD1 was a sign of teething. It may be a reason but bit sick of always using meds - soemone up there does not like me (cold, tummy bug, teeth, gale winds!!)

DH feels better after big lie in so recharged to carry on going.... bit worried that if I do it I will cave in TBH

Normal routine would be:

8am A - approx 2 hours, 45
10.45 - nap for 1,10 - 1,30
12.10  - A time for approx 3 hours, depending on nap
3.15pm - nap for 1,10 - 1,30
4.30 - A time for approx 3 hours to about 7,30 - asleep by 8pm (in reality the 1/2 hour gets swept up in A time or S time somewhere!!)

We trundle on...

And of course thanks again.....

E x

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

Emma, you are doing an amazing job.  Yes, there will be set backs and you can't always quite pinpoint what the reason is, but try try try to stay consistent, no matter what!  I have no ideas about the early mornings....we have that too still, and I remember Megan having it for just ages.  Just think....someday, they'll be old enough to get up on their own and play quietly on their own while you just sleep in....!

[Bryony]

Emma - I am no great expert on routines, but just wanted to say that yours looks good to me    Ours was v similar at that age (on non-45 min nap days anyway) except that I always tried to make sure that the last A time was the shortest as Katie doesn't sleep well at night if she's overtired. 

hang in there!

Bryony

[Peek-a-boo]

How old is she now--I think she was 7 months when this thread started, but that was a bit ago.  Is she 8.5 months now? 

[Bryony]

Emma - by the way, I think I got to the bottom of our 4-5am crib parties - I looked back at my records and we always seem to have phases of these when Katie needs to increase her A times and/or decrease her daytime sleep. So I reduced her morning nap to 1 hr, with a 1.5 hr afternoon nap, and so far it seems to be working.  Now I know there are lots of reasons for 4-5am crib parties, and they can also be OT - but thought I would mention it in case it felt like a possbibility for you!

Bryony xx

[bethanys mummy]

Bryrony

so glad you have got yours sorted (well for now ), although misery does like company....

I think she was OT from the cold and NWs, bit too shouty at nap  & bed time, too easy to get to sleep if I had to use the pushchair etc. 2 short days in a row now so hoping this will help lots, and the drugs....

Her final A time does vary - between 2.5 and just over 3 hours, try to base it on her day (and night!) before. DH walks in from work and I give him an estimated bed time to work to!! She is usually as happy as can be early eve as DD1 is about for entertainment (prob too much entertainment... but we try) so cues go out the window as she is distracted. So all I can do is estimate where we are heading for re bedtime and hope i have it right...

Yep she's 8.5 months old now... and yet to sleep through the night...

Thanks Erin for your thoughts, I think you are back at work now ( ) so extra busy

And of course special thanks to Bethany (the mod not the baby..) who has the patience of a saint

[bethanys mummy]

Hi again

last night was a tale of 2 halves....

Slept from 7.45 to 5.45 ish really well, so pleased. Could hear her stir (quite allot at 10.30) and resetlle, we did not have to go in at all

Then 1.25 hrs of PUPD from 5.45 - usual story in that she settled about 5 times but always rewoke. DH leaving room, trying not to PU too much etc but he says its almost like he's not there anyway as her eyes are shut. He was at end of tether so I fed her and she slept until 8.30 when I woke her

She must still be OT to go back to sleep, right??? and me waking her???

or somehow UT???

or habit??

Honest views please as I am at a loss at to what to do next. Was thinking of stopping df and setting alarm for 5am to feed her as some sort of odd W2S??

Need to break this dawn habit!!!!!!! its not in tracy's book anywhere is it?? Can't be her natural wake up time because she wakes up crying and then has soo much sleep

So near yet so far?? or miles to go

E x

[Peek-a-boo]

Hey hun,

I asked another mod to look at your routine and she thought it looked fine--no glaring issues.  Of course, keep watching her cues as these LO's change constantly. 

The best thing I can tell you about the dawn wake up is to keep being consistent.     I wish I had something better.  Trying W2S seems like a reasonable plan. 

I tend to think this waking sounds more like habit or OT.  If it was undertired, I think she'd be more awake and in a better mood for that hour she's up.    What is her normal wake time?  I would wake her then rather let her sleep late and throw off the timing of her routine.  In a weird way it might be reinforcing the dawn waking to let her sleep in later than her set wake time. 

Did you feed her when she was awake and she fell asleep nursing? 

[Erin (redstarfalling)]

I agree with not letting her sleep in too much.  Honestly, not much we did made a difference when Megan was waking at 5 am....until she dropped the morning nap.  I found that the days she slept less in the am and most of the nap time was in the afternoon, she'd wake later in the morning the next day.  With Samantha now, if she wakes anytime after 5:30am, I just get her up for the day (but the girls' usual wake up time is between 6 and 6:30).

FWIW, I think W2S is a good idea for the next step too, but I'm not sure if I'd feed her then....it might just get her used to being hungry and being fed at that time.  Part of sleeping all night is our bodies getting used to NOT eating until we wake for the day, IYKWIM.... It's just harder with kids because they're only just starting to move away from eating overnight...

[Peek-a-boo]

Emma pm'd me, but we decided it would be better to continue the discussion on the boards.  Here is her pm:

I have to sort whats happening with Bethany, I can't go on like this

Last night I went to bed quite happy. I had decided that I would plan to drop the bf and hopefully she would go from 8-6 regularly (ish) I would feed her then and let her sleep for another 1-2 hours. I thought we could at least take a break with this thought for a week or 2 then tackle that early morning feed when we were ready & re energised. I was so happy I actually could not get to sleep for ages, big mistake

She was up breifly about 1.30. And then from 2.30 to 4.30. The usual. I did not feed her to sleep but in the end was able to pin her down and pat her off

WHAT IS WRONG??? I am now wondering if she is UT, I just don’t know at all. I can only give the following info’ and see if you can help….

•   For the last few days her routine has been a short day, as we have thought she was OT . So bedtime had been 7.30pm (or earlier) to 8.30am
•   So 13+ hours sleep, less the average 2 hours she has been up = 11
•   Always had to wake her at 8.30 – this am I was in tears as did not know what to do
•   Nap totals have been 2-2.5 hours, with A times of 2.5-3. So total sleep in 24 hours about 13.5 ish. But obviously a short day of 10.5-11 hours
•   She has gone down really easily for naps and at bedtime
•   Naps have not been as easy to extend as usual – some fighting and PUPD
•   PUPD has worked in that we can hear her put herself back to sleep in the evening and at night up to the point that all hell lets loose
•   Last 4 nights been up for an average of 2 hours. Not playing and not trying to interact. Burying her head. Chewing lovie. Sitting up. Crying allot. Settles umpteen times then up again. Still crying (eyes so red…).
•   DH honestly trying everything with PUPD (staying, leaving, voice etc). Got to trust him as its partly worked???
•   When she finally does settle, it takes a long time for her to go into deep enough sleep. The times I fed her it took 30 mins for her to relax to sleep, probably similar when I held her down and patted her last ngiht
•   At this age DD1 had 11 hours at night + 1,10 + 30 mins…….

I know you cant perform miracles, but I really value your support and input. I cant let her CIO but I cant live like this either, so the boob in the mouth is looking tempting again.
She is smiling away at me and all I am doing is crying

If she is UT then do I stretch her back to a 12 hour day all in one day??

[Peek-a-boo]

Okay--so, let's run with the theory that she is undertired.  If she's been averaging 13.5 hours of sleep, let's assume that she needs about that much--maybe a hair more--so let's call it 14 hours.  If she's sleeping 14 hours, that leaves 10 hours of awake time, divided over three A periods is A time of about 3.25-3.5 hours or a routine that looks something like this:

7 am wake
10:15-11:45 nap
3:00-4:30 nap
8:00 bed time

I arbitrarily choose 7 am as a wake time for this sample routine.  Since her long wake spells are often starting around 5:45, it might make sense to try starting your day at 6 am (sounds yucky to me  , but if you're a morning person . . .).  You've also mentioned having to divide her nap on days when you pick DD1 up for school.  As we're looking at trying to reprogram her routine a bit, you might try arranging her day so that the school pick up no longer interferes with a nap.   You would want to increase her A times gradually, adding 10-15 minutes every few days. 

A less mathmatical solution  , would be to just start adding 10 minutes to each A time every 2-3 days until you reach that point of balance were she's having enough A time during the day that she doesn't need to create it during the middle of the night.  It helps in my head to have a routine toward which I'm working, however.

Hope that makes sense . . . let me know what you think.   

[Bryony]

Emma - I would agree with Bethany. And the only way to find out if she is UT is to give it a go...  for us cutting down the morning nap by half an hour did solve this 4-5am restless sleep thing.  Obviously all LOs are different -  but sometimes parenting is a matter of trial and error    so you only know if you try it out.

HUGS!  You will get there 

Bryony