Need help tweaking routine pls!

[nike]

He was pretty grizzly this afternoon but not displaying real tired signs, iykwim.  I managed to get another look in his mouth tonight while giving pain meds and it looks like he's getting top AND bottom canines.  Is this even possible???   Poor little guy, they really must be hurting.  I do think the teething tabs have taken the edge off, though.

He did perk up after dinner, which was at 5 p.m. (normally 5.30).  He has been eating like a champ since dropping that morning bottle

Bedtime was 6.30 p.m.  Went down no dramas.  Uh oh, he's just cried out.  It's only 10 to 7

[nike]

Ok, false alarm.  He ended up crying out 2x that night but didn't require any attention, it was just a brief grizzle.

BUT....this a.m. he woke at 6 a.m.   He woke yesterday just after 7 a.m., napped from 12 - 2.30 and was in bed by 6.30.  Do you think this bedtime was too early?  Or too late?  This is where I'm getting confused!

He hasn't woken this early for ages and when I tried to give him water he had a fit   So I caved and gave him a bottle...grrr.  He also hasn't had a bottle before 9 a.m. for ages.  So he went back to sleep (from about 6.10 a.m. - or at least was quiet) till just now, where he's woken again, 30 mins later:(  Now I know I'll have to get him up but don't know what to do now about nap timing???

If I can impose for some more advice please!!

[Aly Mac]

Nike, what was his tired signs like before the 6.30 bedtime? or have they gone (they did for us, but thank goodness they are back now!). It may have been too early. Not sure how you are going now, but just don't keep him up too long when he has an early night - vicious cycle I know.  Just keep watching and logging the times.  Idid htat, and have now found that L can stay awake longer for her last A time.

Good luck, and hope all is going well.

[nike]

Ok, well where do I start?  It's all gone to %$#@ again   I'm having huge mummy meltdown atm.  Gawd, I've really needed these boards more than ever in the last week!

So here's what's been happening here:  NWs have been every night   Sometimes hours at a time.  I finally managed to get him in to see our dr on Tuesday, who said he has a "severe" ear infection.  He prescribed antibiotics and said they'd take up to 48 hours to kick in.  Tonight will be 48 hours, except we haven't seen any difference at all to the NWs.   Like I mentioned previously, he is teething (his BMs are just rotten) and he does have this ear infection as well, poor little guy, but niggling away at me is this horrible thought that I've done the wrong thing by dropping the nap.  I am fighting with DH atm, who says after 10 days now that I shouldn't go back.  To do this would also mean reintroducing the a.m. bottle, which I really don't want to do!  I'm fairly certain he won't settle for sleep without it   Our new routine has been:

wake 7-ish
morning tea 9.30
lunch 11-11.15
bottle 11.45
nap 12 - 2 or 2.30
afternoon tea 3
dinner 5.15
bottle 6.30
bed 6.45

These times aren't exact but round about.  He seems to handle the increased A time really well, but sometimes (like today) he's only slept 1.5 hours, which I know is not enough, and I'll adjust bedtime to around 6.30.  Something that is consistently happening is that after settling easily for sleep at night, he will inevitably wake again around 8.30 or 9 p.m.  Sometimes he'll have just a brief cry and resettle, other times I'll need to give him a cuddle and more teething gel.  But lately he's been waking again in the early hours, crying for up to 5 minutes, going quiet for 10 or 15 (just enough for me to drop off again) and then waking again. This will go on for up to an hour, before I finally have to go in just to get some sleep.  Any ideas???  Does this sound like OT???  One morning after a bad night he slept till 10.15 a.m.   He wanted to go back for a nap at 1 p.m. and then slept till 3!  I put him to bed at 6.30 that night and he slept through.  Last night we had a doozy and he still woke at 7.  I should have stayed home this morning, I know, but I had to get out. I still managed to get him down for a nap just before 12 p.m. and he woke after 1 hour, grrr.  I left him for 5 minutes and he went quiet again, but then woke 20 minutes later. 

I am all teary and getting quite depressed.  I really can't read his tired signs any more and feel like a monumental failure as a mummy.  I'm also battling a toddler who's dropping his daytime nap, so am feeling really down about that.  He's so loud during his "quiet" time that I find myself going in and shouting at him.  Honestly, I think I just need a break from these kids and a decent night's sleep.  HELP!!

[nike]

As has been the daily - or should I say nightly - pattern now, he's woken up crying an hour after putting him to bed.  He cries for a couple of minutes, goes quiet for 10 minutes or so, then the cycle begins again.  Is this a sign of chronic OT? 

After NWs last night, he woke at 7 a.m.  I put him down for a nap at midday and he woke crying at 1 p.m.  I left him for 10 mins as it was really whinging, not full on crying.  He went quiet for 20 minutes or so then started up again.  So he really only had just over an hour's nap.  I had him back in his room, finished his bottle at 6.15 but then in the process of doing a burp he had a little throwup.  After changing and resettling, and waiting for hiccups to end, he was back in his cot at 6.40 awake but drowsy.  He's just called out again now

This is all doing my head in! 

[Aly Mac]

OH you poor love.  I"m feeling your pain, we've had some nw too.  they do tend to have a little regression (or so I have heard from other mums).  YOu are not a failure - you are a great mummy, trying to do the best for your boys.  There is nothing wrong in 'going back' to 2naps if he needs them.  this is quite normal in the first couple of months as they can get ot.  Esp him being sick and with teeth - he needs to rest.  If he has a bad night, try and put him down for his morning nap - give it half hour - if he doesn't settle, get him up and then put him down for his normal one nap time.  If he does sleep, give him only half hour, then his 2nd nap 2.5hrs later.  I can't remember sorry, if he did a long am or pm nap - this is what I would recomend if he had a short am nap.

The waking up early in the evening is OT.  I would put him to bed about 6.15 for a 6.30 sleep if you find that he hasn't had a good night the night before and didn't nap well that day. I'm doing the same things - she just needs to catch up a bit.

REally love, if he has an ear infection and teething, you need to just do what he needs to do to sleep,and get back on track once he is better.  Don't try and force the one nap while he is sick, if he can't handle.

hang in there - you are doing an awesome job xx

[nike]

Thanks Aleesa.  We had another bad night last night, except this time Mummy slept on the couch so I couldn't hear it and Daddy handled it I am hormonal and emotional atm, in desperate need of some time out!  I have no family here and no other help with the boys, so whenever I go through a rough patch I slink into a bit of a black hole and of course start second guessing myself.  Feeling much better today, though, after some good z's last night.

Ok, so I am going to go with my instinct (and your great advice) and revert back to the 2 naps again.  We actually had an EW this a.m., which reassured me even more that it's the right thing to do.  So I am officially "slave to naps" again, which is a little depressing in itself.  It was great to have a couple of weeks of the boys being in bed at the same time during the day and getting a little break, apart from the unsettled at night aspect of course!  When he recovers from all his ailments and/or catches up on some lost sleep then I'll work out where to go from there.

Anyway, this morning he woke at 6.20 and I put him back to bed at 8.50.  Our routine in the past has been to have a little warm bath after breakfast and a little play, our version of wind-down.  I did revert back to giving him a bottle before his nap (20 minutes before), but I feel more positive now knowing that when the time comes for dropping that nap that he'll easily drop that bottle too.  So he went down for the nap VERY easily and he's still asleep now, 1 hr 30 mins later.  I don't think I'll wake him from this nap but let him catch up.  (To answer your q'un, he always has had a great a.m. nap and I've always had to wake him from his p.m. nap). I'm fairly certain he will give me another nap later this arvo. 

I don't know what I was thinking trying to extend his A time so much, so quickly!  He was always a predictable wake, 2 hours up, down for nap, three hours up, down for nap, three hours up and bed.  I definitely misread the fighting bedtime as not being tired enough, when really in hindsight it probably was the teeth or the early signs of the ear infection.

Anyway, we shall see how it all goes.  Thanks for your most amazing support.  I hope the nap thing all comes together quickly for your little princess too.  She's a very lucky little girl to have you as her mummy

[Aly Mac]

Thank you   Your boys are lucky to have you too. 

Sounds like you are doing the right thing - when they are sick you just do what you ahve to do to get them the much needed rest.  And remember, the switch to one nap, is a transition period - not something that you just change to, so there may be some tooing and froing from 2 to 1 for a while.  I still do 2 naps when I know she needs it. There are no rules about these things.

take care, and enjoy your weekend

[nike]

He ended up having a great 2 1/4 hour morning nap, waking at 11.10.  Of course now I can't get him down for a p.m. nap   I've been trying for 45 minutes now, even offering more of a bottle, which he took but then still wouldn't settle.  He looks really tired.  It's just a catch 22, isn't it?  I thought by giving him a long morning sleep he'd catch up on last night's missed z's, but now he's going to be overtired tonight if I can't get him to take a p.m. nap.

I don't remember it being this difficult with #1

[Layla]

More {{{HUGS}}}

If you are going to let him take a nap in the morning, try not to let him sleep for too long. I would probably do 45mins at most and then offer a pm nap about 3hrs or so later. He probably won't take a pm nap on such a long am nap and you're best to do an earlier bedtime (5.30-6pm)

[Aly Mac]

Nike, for today, just do an early bedtime.  It's hard when they have a long am nap, even if they are sick and need to catch up.

take care

[nike]

Thanks ladies.  He wasn't having a bar of that p.m. nap and was pretty happy for the rest of the day, surprisingly.  I managed to get him to bed at 5.50 p.m. and kept looking at the clock for the rest of the night til I went to bed, waiting for him to cry out.  HE DIDN'T   He slept right through til 6.30 and has been a real happy chappy this morning.

Did I mention he also got a cold on top of the ear infection and teething

I am going to put him to bed this morning for first nap at 9 and am getting DH to wake him at the hour mark.  I'm taking DS1 to the circus and can't be back til 1.30 at the latest, so I will have to put him to bed a bit later, say at 2 p.m., hence letting him sleep an hour instead of shorter.  (The little monkey won't take a bottle from even his Dad )  I hope that plan doesn't completely backfire on me, but previously that has been our nap routine - nap at 9 and nap at 2.

I have some q'uns please!

When should I start stretching him out in the morning? Do I wait for him to start faffing around til I know he's not ready for sleep so soon?
When you say to get him up after 1/2 hour trying if he is faffing around, shouldn't I try putting him back down in another, say, 1/2 hour or do I go straight to one nap in the early afternoon???
How long do I let him sleep for?  (Obviously if only one nap, til he wakes, but if it's 2?)
What do I do at the other end of the day?
If I keep waking him, how do I know what his "true" awake time is?
What time do I make bedtime?

This all seems so crazy to me, especially when I have DH in my ear saying "just let the poor guy sleep; if he sleeps 2 hours that means he needs it"....and you know what, he's probably right!  But with a toddler as well, and having appointments to keep, I need some sort of predictability to my day!!

TIA

[nike]

I am officially freakin losing it

He went down for his first nap at 9.15 and I gave instructions to DH to wake him after an hour, which he did.  Well guess what, he won't go down for his 2nd nap   If I had have known he'd only take the one nap then I would have let him sleep a decent sleep.

I tell you, I've had it   I have another DS to care for who's not even three.  I can't prepare dinner for 4.30 every night and have him have a completely different sleep schedule from DS1.  I am sleeping on the couch for $%#^ sake so I can get some sleep.  I honestly need a break.  I'm sick of it

[Lissybits]

Hello Nike!
I just read your post and couldn't not post - you poor thing, your really going through it at atm.

I don't really have any advice on routine - I'll leave that to the experts, but I just wanted to say that when my DS has had an ear infection in the past which has totally thrown naps, BT and generally sleep all haywire, it always takes 2 weeks or so to
 a) get out of all the bad sleep habits
 b) recover from the ear infection (which is extremely painful)

So don't despair, once he's feeling better (poor thing with the ear infection, cold AND teething!) you'll be able to sleep train to get over his OT and get him back on track and things will get better - they will!
In the meantime, try to stay calm (difficut, I know!) at least DH is helping!

We had a bad night last night - think DS is coming down with another cold - just hope it doesn't go to his ears or that will be another 2 weeks sleep training - sigh!! It never ends!!

Lots of love and hugs to you and your gorgoeus boys!
Lis
xxx

[nike]

Thanks for your vote of sympathy, Lis   I hope your LO doesn't end up catching a cold and that it's just the change of weather sniffles

Well, despite all our good efforts our little monkey refused point blank to sleep this afternoon   I managed to get him into bed just on the dot of 6 p.m. and I haven't heard a peep out of him since, touch wood.  Hopefully he'll/we'll have a good night.

I just don't get why on one nap a day of up to 2.5 hrs, waking at about 2.30 and going to bed at about 7, that he can have NWs from being overtired - but when being awake from 11 a.m. ( ) to nearly 6 p.m. he sleeps through?  Is it because the closest period to their night sleep is always the most restorative, meaning the A time between wake up and first nap needs to be the shortest?  I just re-read that and anyone who understands what I'm saying deserves a medal   What I mean is: is a shorter awake period in the a.m., even with a shorter nap and no p.m. sleep, much better than a longer awake period in the afternoon before night sleep???

If I can get the answer to that q'un then I will know how to tackle the 2 to 1 transition with my little guy! Eg, would it be better in his case to let him have a long morning nap, realising he won't take a p.m. nap any more and in that event put him to bed very early OR just stretch him out and let him nap as long as possible for a midday nap and still put him to bed very early??  In the event of scenario 1, when he starts to shorten his nap or faff around in going down, will that be the cue for pushing that nap back?  What do I do if he happily keeps snoozing at that time for a while?  Does that mean we're stuck with super early bedtimes??  Aaargghhhh.....

I already said I don't remember it being this difficult with DS1 but I think I've hit on why.  With only one little guy to worry about, it's not really a drama - you can still devote all your time to their routine and it's even not so bad (within reason) having to attend to the NWs.  BUT...with two I'm finding myself having to devote most of my time to the LO while my oldest (who is still very young) is left to fend for himself.  I'm exaggerating, I know....I just feel that I'm losing time with him whilst having to sort out this nap mess with the little guy and having to keep saying "Mummy will be there in a minute, I'm just trying to put N to bed AGAIN".  Now I'm skipping dinner with DS1 altogether as I'm having to bath and put DS2 to bed    Does anyone else feel this way??

Anyway, enough of the rant.  Thanks for listening