What has happened to my Champion night sleeper?

[~Natalie~]

Thought I would pop on too.  We don't have the long waking in the middle of the night, just crying at bed time.  I know how frustrating it is.  I definitely think wi/wo is the way to go when she wakes at night, hopefully that will break her of wanting to play with you. 

I also think maybe the naps at nursery might affect the sleep as a whole.  So maybe if you think about the amount of sleep she gets in a week rather than the amount during the day.  She was having 5 days of 1-1.5 hour naps at nursery and then 2 days of 2.5-3 hour naps at home so around 11-12hours of naps during the week.  With the longer naps at nursery now she is getting 15-16 hours of naps.  With James his OT and UT seem to build over days not just a result of a day.  He tends to self adjust his naps.  He will take maybe two days of 1.5 naps, then a 2 hour nap then a 3, then back down to an 1.5.  Maybe with Abi she has gotten into a routine of taking the shorter naps during the week and then making up for that sleep during the weekends, but not that she is getting more daytime sleep over all she is UT?

Okay did that make any sense at all?  It does in my brain but I just had weekend visitors and a lot of late nights 

[sherry lynn]

Paula - I know Abi is a much better sleeper than Lyle is, but when he has taken a 3 hour nap (which is maybe twice, ever) he was no where near ready for bed after 5 hours A time. I've been lucky lately in that he does yell and holler for me at the moment, but he just rolls around in bed and takes forever to settle. The last time he took a 3 hour nap he took 45 min to go to bed at night and was up early the next morning.

I wouldn't say decrease nap time at nursery either, just give it 3 days of a later bedtime like Becky suggested and see if that works. At this point there isn't much to lose, right?

Charm - I've been working really hard at keeping the 7:30 bedtime, regardless of naps. Like I said the weird wake-ups have ended, but I can't seem to get the first A time right. We were doing great at 5 hours and that seems to have fallen apart for whatever reason. Tried 5h15 and it was worse, waking up at 1h10m and not going back to sleep. At 5 hours he's waking up at around 50ish min, sometimes 1h10m or 1h20m and then going back to sleep for a while after that 

[EloysH]

Hi  Paula,


I would try 30 min later bedtime for a days too. It worked wonders for us.   J was constantly EW at 5:30am and it fixed it.  On non nursery days try to push the nap later too.

huge hugs.  you must be sooooo tired.   

[skatty]

I can't add anything except don't rule out teething as those second year molars really do move around a long time before they start sprouting and can cause hell, my DD will always wake in the early hours and find it very hard to settle again, perhaps you could try going in at 12 and giving her some meds while she sleeps and if she sleeps through you will know and if she doesn't you can rule it out? It just sounds really similar to what we went through while Leorah was teething and seemed to go on for ages, I actually thought teething was over and the last few weeks we had the same and even more molar sprouted! Also L is at nursery and is much more tired on those days than weekends, she can easily do a longer A time at the W/E after a longer nap but I have to be careful on weekdays though I do agree with pp that mucking around at bedtime can also be UT, hard isn't it?

[EloysH]

second that on the teething.  A while ago you said she was getting her canines, are they through?

Teething is wreaking havoc with us at the mo, Jarrah is refusing to nap in his cot every second day during the day and one day refused to nap at all cause he was so uncomfortable even with the meds.  He's been NW too.   Defo keep that in mind. This has been going on for about 2 weeks.

[huntersmummyinoz]

huge hugs hun

i dont have anything new to add as my thoughts were PITA teeth, later bedtime or accumulated sleep with the extra napping as natalie suggested.

the dreammed is a good option to try as you can test it and see really quickly and easily.

if you go later bedtime, i would try 15mins later at first, and then another 15mins later if no change after a while. (just as when we did this with hunter the 30mins extra made bedtimes even worse! scaled it back to a 715pm bedtime which worked for a couple of weeks then got monkey business again so did 730pm bedtime which is where we are at now. i think once they have had a set bedtime for sooooo long that they are very sensitive to it)

napping, i do think the total sleep in the week is a big possibility. previously she may have always been playing 'catch up' for her naps on the weekends. if this is the case then i guess it's a decision as to whether you would rather limit her naps to keep night sleep amount where it was, or the later bedtime and slightly less night sleep to even out the total amount of sleep. hope that makes sense??

thinking of you both
kirry

[anna*]

Paula, as you know I'm rubbish at toddler sleep (the bags under my eyes will testify ) but I'm sending hugs and sleepy vibes and so pleased the amazing BWs have given you such great advice. (((hugs)))

[charmie]

I wouldn't limit naps if they are lasting 1hr.  But maybe if she's doing more than 2hrs since I seem to remember long naps do affect her bedtime. 


xxx
charm

[huntersmummyinoz]

napping, i do think the total sleep in the week is a big possibility. previously she may have always been playing 'catch up' for her naps on the weekends. if this is the case then i guess it's a decision as to whether you would rather limit her naps to keep night sleep amount where it was, or the later bedtime and slightly less night sleep to even out the total amount of sleep. hope that makes sense??

sorry should have made that clearer (my brain is fried after dealing with poop and a sick bub all day )...my thoughts for shortening were to keep all naps to around 2 hrs as she prob doesnt need the longer weekend ones if she is getting good sleeps at nursery

[* Paula *]

Thanks ladies for all your replies, I really appreciate it.

OK so I increased A time by 30 mins today and it still took her 40 mins to fall asleep    At first she started crying when I put her to bed, but when I walked in she would get off her bed and try and get out of the room.  So I had to leave the room and shhh and pat on the door for her to calm down.  Then the crying turned more into a winge so I came down stairs, put the monitor on and she then started chatting and then shouting and she went to sleep after that.

She did sleep through the night last night after a 3 hour nap and 5 hour A time.  It was about 5 hours by the time she settled after the fight last night.  Ok so this is the first time she has slept through for about a week now, the only thing I did differently was offer her a piece of toast before bed.  She had just had her milk, and then a piece of toast and went to bed.  Could this be a co-incidence, or is my little madam just a really hungry child?  She does not stop eating.

Her nap today was just over an hour, so back to normal.  I do understand about the longer naps during the week and looking at the total amount of naps during the week, rather than on a daily basis, but the days that she actually took longer naps at nursery were days that she did not sleep well at night, so basically was making up for lost sleep.

One thing I do find is that she gets tireder a lot quicker on the weekends when she has a longer nap than she does during the week.  I am wondering if cause she is so busy during the week at nursery, is that she does not really think about getting tired, but when she is at home and a more relaxed atmosphere she seems to get tired more quickly.  Does that make sense 

With regards to teething, no those PITA eye teeth have not popped through.  But she does not seem to be showing many signs of teething.  Usually when her teeth are bothering her, she is off her food and milk, but seems to be eating more than ever, so am not sure.  I guess I should not rule it out though.  I did give teething gel both last night and this evening before bed.

Charm, with regards to the longer naps, previously we generally did well with a 25 hour nap on the weekend, it seems that the 3 hour one is the one that plays a bit of havoc.  I let her nap longer yesterday due to being up so much the night before, but guess, that could be creating a problem, as the longer nap could be robbing from her night time sleep.

Also I am not sure what ages SA peaks, but am wondering if this could be playing a part with it too.  Especially for screaming at bedtime.  She was not doing this last week, but when MIL tried to put her to bed on Friday, this is when it started, do you think that SA could aslo be a cause?  She seems fine all the other times, except when we mention sleep.

Thanks again for all your replies 

[sherry lynn]

Hi Paula - I think that makes a lot of sense. I say that in regards to the napping at nursery being better when the night sleep was worse. It sounds like she caught up last night. I would start giving her a snack before bed and seeing if that helps. Sounds like she is going through a growth spurt or something. I think we are definitely at the age where SA could be playing a part.

I was thinking that since naps were back to normal at nursery today I think I would have went with the normal bedtime and see how that went? I think 30 min later is a lot for just the one hour nap. What time did you put her to bed tonight, and what time did she finally fall asleep? Is she falling asleep around the same time these nights?

Hopefully last week was a fluke and things will get back to normal soon.

[becky1969]

Yay on STTN! You said the only thing you changed was the food before bed, but isn't the A time post-nap longer too?  Weren't you doing more like 4 hours before? And when all was said and done it was 5 hours when she fell asleep.  I think with that 3 hour nap she really was able to stay awake closer to 5 hours -- and since she slept thru the night it's pretty clear she wasn't OT! 


With a 1 hour nap you're probably going to have to keep A time post-nap closer to normal length -- so more towards 4 than 4.5.  But really, I think more A time on long nap days will help a lot.

Teeth can absolutely be at work here too.  Those canines are worse than the molars for most babies.  They are working under the gums and causing pains (and tiring them out!) even when they aren't showing typical teething signs.  Experimenting with pain meds might give you a clue.  The canines were like no other teeth we got! Even the 2 year old molars were easy compared to those buggers.  They are sooooo pointy I think they must really hurt, even under the gum.

There is a big SA phase at age 1 and another at 18 months.   So you could be seeing the beginnings of the 18 month one.  It's possible having gma do a sleep period caused some worry in her.  We had a similar problem when I had to go out of town for work 3 random days in a 3 week period.  To help my son, I started saying at nap time "When you wake up, mommy will come in and say 'hello Owen! Did you have a good sleep?' And then we'll hug and play!"  Giving her that speech before nap and bedtime -- letting her know you WILL be there when she wakes up -- may help to alleviate whatever worries she may have with regards to separation.  Seems goofy, but it really works.

[* Paula *]

Thanks again for your replies ladies.

Well I guess the other night was just a fluke, as things are back to BAD

After putting her to bed at 7:30 last night, she still took about 30 - 40 minutes to settle, crying on and off.  She slept soundly from then until 1:00am where she woke and only went back to sleep at 4:45

She was crying on and off, more of mantra crying.  I had given her pain meds and teething gel but still she would not settle.  She was climbing out of bed and walking round her room - something she has never done.  I would put her back on her bed, she would throw her lovey on the floor and then start crying for it.  Everytime I went in the room to try and settle her back down, she would sit up as if I was getting her up for the day.

I really don't know what is going on. I don't think that she was OT last night cause even when she has been OT previously we have never had a problem with night time sleep.

She napped for 1.5 hours at nursery today and I put her to bed 5 hours later, she mantra cried on and off for about 10 mins and then went to sleep.  Fingers crossed I don't have another night like last night, as I am really finding it hard to cope on not having any sleep and then still doing a full days work

I know she is tired and she keeps on snuggling up to her lovey and is a bit off balance and keeps on falling over.  Other than than being tired, she is so happy, and eating like a horse. 

Thanks Becky, it does not sound goofy at all.  I generally do tell her it is sleepy time and that when she wakes up mummy will come and get her.  I am thinking the nanna thing did throw her off a bit and this is why she is fighting bedtime and crying so much.  She has not really done this before.  Even when she has not been tired enough, she will generally just natter or sing to herself.

This evening, I have given her some paracetamol before bed, and will top up with ibuprofen before I got to bed at about 10 - 10:30pm and see if that helps at all.  I know that the teeth moving up in the gums can be really painful, so this could well be the reason, it just seems strange that she is not showing any signs of teething at all - but definitley giving pain meds to see if it makes an improvement.

Thanks for all your support 

[anna*]

More ((((hugs))) wish I had something useful to add.

[~Natalie~]

{{hugs}} Paula. I hope the top up of pain meds works tonight and you both get some rest!