Where do I begin?

[mokey_cat]

Hi T.  Im sorry you had such a long NW  .  That would get anyone sad!!

Im not too sure what to make of it.  Barbara - what do you think?  You may have some ideas of what caused it. 

I guess the fact he slept until 1.15am without waking is a great sign though and its normally wakings early in the night that indicate OT I think so I hope that means, you have the right last A time!!

After 1.5hrs try I was really tired and DH offered to help. BUT he lost his temper within five minutes being in there! I was sooo angry with him!!! He made DS suffer even more! How dare he! I sooo hated him!   Then after that five minutes I had to go in and to it myself again.. so until about 3.15 DS finally settled.... my poor little thing!

Men!!!!  They have NO patience eh.  I totally understand you on this one as my DH used to last only 5 mins trying to get DD to sleep before getting grumpy and leaving it to me!!  In fact, I have got up on my own during the night pretty much the full time as he just sleeps through everything and gets grumpy so its easier if I do it myself.  Its very frustrating!!

This morning I heard him again at 7.10 when I thought he just woke up.. but now I'm not quite sure about that... cos DS just went down for his nap at 9.45 (I didn't expect him to nap until around 10.30 though.. but....) because he was sooo sleepy and was falling asleep in my arms when we were downstaires.... so I brought him to his room and he went down easy! So I think maybe he was up waaaaayyyy before 7.10?  But when???  It is soo hard to judge the am wake up time if they don't make much sound isn't it? Even with a monitor!    I'm just gonna see if he's going to give me an UT nap....

This also happened to me this morning.  If they dont make a noise, you just cant tell when they woke so you have to rely more on tired cues.  I woke at 7am and looked in the video monitor and couldnt see her at all!!  There is a tiny bit at the bottom of her cot  that the monitor doesnt show and she was squashed right down there.  Oh my I really panicked  .  But then she was acting really tied after only 2 hours so she went for a nap after 2.5hrs and slept for 1.5 hours  .  mmmm so I dont know when she woke either.  It makes it really difficult to judge but I would just try and stretch him as close to his normal nap time as you can.  If he is getting really tired or grumpy, then put him down a bit before.  How did that nap go anyway?

Well done not doing a night feed!!!  He is clearly able to go without so I would defo stick to it!! 



I found feeds got very confusing around this time.  I dropped to 3 milk feeds at 7 months but before that I did something like:

Awake: 7.30
E- 7.45 (5oz) and solids 8.45
S- 10.30-12.00
E- 12.15 (4oz) and solids 12.45
E- 2.45 (4-7oz) and solids after nap at 5pm
S- 3.00-4.30/5
E- 7.10 (9oz)
Bed 7.30

Because she was drinking so little at her 12 & 2.45 feed, I combined these feeds to one at 2.30 ish and her routine has got a lot easier.  This is our routine when we are home all day and its pretty much the same every day just now.  Somedays her last nap is later but I wake her at 4.30 no matter what.

Awake: 7.30
E- 7.45 (5oz)
Breakfast- 9.00
S- 10.30-11.45
Lunch- 12.00
E- 2.00-2.30 (7/8oz)
S- 2.30/3.00-4.00/4.30
Dinner- 5.00
E- 7.10 (9oz)
Bed 7.30

How many milk feeds do you do just now?  Here in Scotland they advise to drop to 2 bottles by 8 or 9 months but I think that is very little so I am sticking to the 3 milk feeds for a while. 

Hope today has went ok for you 

XX

[TurboMum]

Thanks Laura!!

I know - Men! They offer to help because they think they are part of the family and they don't want to miss out the time with their LOs but they just can't do it the way you want them to do, can they? I had soo many heated conversation with DH before just because he wanted to do things HIS way! And that makes it really hard for me to keep DS's routine etc. Sometimes I just wanted to throw him out of the window!

Yea I think less than 3hrs A before bedtime is good for DS too... I'll keep that and hope it continues!

There is a tiny bit at the bottom of her cot  that the monitor doesnt show and she was squashed right down there.  Oh my I really panicked  .  

They do that don't they? squash themselves to the corner of the cot cos they wanna feel snuggled up to something, isn't it? DS did that when going down for his first nap today and I kind find it cute heehee....

And as I was expecting an UT nap this morning, I got a beautiful non-broken 2hr nap out of him!!! YAY!!!!!!!  I'm soo pleased but I'm also very very confused!   Did he really wake up waaaayyyy early this morning or did he just need a super short A in the mornings?

This afternoon we had a 2hr nap too but a bit broken. He went down after 3hrs of wakening from his first nap... so I'm not sure if the wakening in the middle meant UT?

However here is our day so far:

Awake 7.10  
E. 7.15
A.
S. 9.45 - 11.43   beautiful non-broken!
E. 11.50 BF + 12.40 solids (tried some finger food for the first time... oh dear... soo messy!! )
A.
S. 2.47-3.08-4.02-4.47 (UT wakening??)
E. 4.50 BF + 5.50 solids

I plan to put him to bed at around 7.15 (2.5hr A before bedtime) today as it worked yesterday so I hope it works today too!

I'm currently doing 4 milk feeds at the moment and always find the last two a bit too clustered and it's also difficult to fit in his solids feed. I think I might do the same drop to 3 feeds during the day and that should make things really a lot easier!

I notice you give lunch and dinner before her milk feeds huh? How much solids does she eat for the moment? Does that affect her milk intake?

I'm now just a bit not sure what A time I should aim for tomorrow ...  3hrs am (he's only done 2.5hrs today if counting from his *official* wake time) and 3hrs pm? What do you think?

Oh I also hope we don't get the horrible NW again... fingers crossed!  


How was your day anyway? Hope you have had a nice day too!  

Thanks millions!  

T xx

[Barbaara]

Hi ladies,

just got back from a dinner with friends, going to bed now because I'm really tired, will post again tomorrow.

Have a good night!

x

[mokey_cat]

Hi T

Great news about the 2hour nap  .  But how do we find out that A time   .  Its always the way isnt it, just to confuse us!!  I would maybe assume he was up at 7am, played for 10 mins before you heard him so that would make it a 2hr45 A time that gave you the lovely long nap.  I think you have tried it before but maybe we should try it again.  We can see how he gets on with the shorter A.  The pm nap I think was UT because he had such a good am nap.  So tomorrow why dont you try a morning A of 2hr45, if it is a good nap, then 3hr25/20 second A time.  If the nap is broken, cut that A time back a bit and then stick with your 2.5 A before bed.

How did the rest of yesterday go?  Did you get many NW's?

Yeah, I do lunch at 12ish before her milk feed at 2ish now.  It works well for us and takes a good amount of milk at the 2pm feed (usually 8oz).  Then her dinner is at 5pm and last milk feed at 7.10pm.  She usually takes about 4 tablespoons of solids at each meal just now and sometimes I give her a banana or yogurt with her 2pm bottle as a snack.  I think because the bottles and solids are pretty spaced out, the amount of solids doesnt really affect her milk intake.  The only time that happens if her dinner is later than 5pm, then her bedtime bottle will be a bit less.

I really hope you had a better night.  Let us know how you got on!!

XX

[TurboMum]

Thanks Laura! I think I will try that 2hr45min A tomorrow morning and see how it goes. We had 3hr10min A this morning and we got a broken 1.5hr nap (ok but not great!  I really want that beautiful 2hr nap to continue...  )... It was very confusing this morning.. he was a bit grumpy so I tried to put him to bed at 3hr A but then he kind of resisted (I think!?) and eventually he went down 3hr10min A....but tbh I'm not quite sure the resistance was due to not willing to go to bed yet or OT? I'm guessing maybe OT cos we got broken short nap, what do you think?

NOw he is down for his pm nap but only after 2.5hr A .... he was unusually grumpy after waking up from his am nap - so grumpy that he wouldn't even tolerate me having my lunch! - and looked really sleepy just like he was yesterday morning, so I put him down (easy! AND I was able to walk out immediately! )... so let's see what this nap is going to be like....

Last night he went down after near enough 2hr50min A and woke after 45min ... not sure if he was still OT   Then the second NW was between 11.06-1.15 ... the same 2hrs awake like the night before... just this time Daddy didn't help and we didn't lose temper...   so it wasn't too stressful... but I seriously wonder what this waking was about?    Cannot self-soothe back to sleep or just simply really demands some comfort in the middle of the night??.... I don't mind that but I prefer it wasn't 2hrs long!

Wake up at 6.20 this morning and started the day! So now the NWs are down to 2x which is BIG BIG improvement! THANK YOU soo much!!!!!   I hope it carries on progressing!   And no NF again!

I think I'll try drop his milk feeds to 3 after weaning off his NF comfortably! And I think that shouldn't be long!

Will keep you posted about the routine later....

Hope you have a good day! Weather is not great but at least is not HOT!

 

T xx

[Barbaara]

Hi hi, finally able to answer you're posts!    I guess you two still aren't back at work right?   

T, I do PU/PD with DD.  I don't know how long you should try shh/pat for until you decide it's not working anymore, I just noticed DD resisted ssh/pat by arching back etc.  PU/PD is not easy, at least not for me.  I usually do a combination of PU/PD and WI/WO, because as long as I'm in the room she doesn't really do the I-need-you-cry so I shouldn't pick her up, but she's not settling either.

I think if you're LO is already sitting up when you go into his room, then I would just do the PD part. Maybe you could try laying him on his side facing away from you so you're not too much of a distraction?  What do you think?

I'm soooo happy naps and NW's are improving!   Don't know what to make of the 2h wake ups though...    If I were you I'd stick to what you're doing for another 2-3 days and see if the situation will improve.  If not you could also post on de NW board to get some more advice.  My expertise on NW's is not that great! 

Good job on getting rid of the NF as well!!  Maybe that's what causing the long NW?  He could still be expecting a feed and it takes a while for him to accept the fact he's not going to get one.  It's been 2 nights since you've stopped giving a NF right?  And 2 nights with a long NW?  I'm willing to bet that's the reason.  What do you think?

I've already dropped to 2 milk feeds. She's not really drinking as much as what she's supposed to be drinking according to BW standards, but that's the way they do it over here in Belgium.  So I do bottle at 7ish, vegetables+patatoes at 11ish, fruit at 15ish and then bedtime bottle. 

Weather is improving again over here, a nice 25°C and partly sunny/cloudy.

See  ya later!

x

[mokey_cat]

Hi T

I think the 1st nap may have been OT especially if he was still grumpy when he woke up.  I reckon we should try the 2hr45 for the next few days.  If it continues to be a broken nap, then I think we should gradually increase it.  I dont think he would have been awake for too long before you heard him the other morning so I think 2hr45 is a good starting point. 

It sounds like you did well following his cues for the next nap since he fell asleep so easily  .  TBH some days my LO's A times are all over the place.  She can be tired after 2.5 hours one day and then last 3.5 hours the next so now that I can read her cues a bit better, I usually go by them and I cant remember the last UT nap I got.  Did you end up with a long nap?

Im not sure about the 1st waking after bedtime  .  Maybe OT??  I think if he was fine the other night with 2.5hrs, then stick at that if you can (easier said than done eh!!).  And Im really glad NW's are down to 2!!  But I really dont know what is causing that looong NW!!  Barbara may be on to something with the feeding thing.  I would agree with her to carry on as you are for the next 3 days as it may be that he is taking some time adjusting to his new A times etc.  How does he wake up during this NW?  UPset, happy, playing?  Does he calm when you enter the room?  What do you do during the 2 hours?  I also am not too experienced with NW's and agree that a question on NW board may help you more with that long NW.  But I am glad the NW's are reducing in number.  I would continue with dropping the night feed so he knows there is no reason to get up 

Barbara - Our guidelines in the UK are also different from the BW way.  We are encouraged to increase solids pretty quickly and drop milk so my LO gets around 20oz of milk which will reduce to 16oz when we drop another bottle, but I trust my new health visitors advice so am happy to follow her advice.  I am due to start back work in 3 weeks today so I probably wont be on as often then  .  T - are you returning to work as well?

XX

[TurboMum]

Thanks for your replies ladies!

But tonight is NOT going to be good as DS is super OT just now!    He woke from his nap 2 at 4pm and didn't go down until 8pm!!    He struggled and then resisted going down .. I'm also in a very bad mood right now cos just had a go with DH  ... Grrrr....

So overall today's naps were ok although they are broken. Nap 2 he slept for altogether 2.5hrs cos he seemed sooo tired....and I had to wake him up in the end as well...but he woke in between for a few times so I suppose he needed that extra time to rest well...but I don't know what went wrong at bedtime? 

Here is our day -

Awake 6.20
E. 6.30 BF   + 7.30 solids
A.
S. 9.28-10.07      10.15-10.50
E. 11.05 BF + 12.45 solids
A.
S. 1.30 - 2.09 - 3.07 - 4.02 (I woke him)
E. 4.10 BF + 5.15 solids
A.
E. 6.25
S. 8.00    (aimed for bedtime at around 6.45.. but... )

OK he was sort of getting tired around 6pm so we quickly give him a bath and then I BF him. He was dozing off during BFing... so I get him off the breasts and try to lay him down drowsy as usual. But then he became wide awake and cried. Then he sits up and then play a bit, then cry a bit, play a bit, then cry a bit... so I left him in his room waited for his real cry. Then when I finally go in there I can quickly calm him down and get him sleepy but then he'll wake and try to find my eyes... or push me away... then I leave him in his cot and walk out and he doesn't cry instantly...he plays a bit, then cry.. then I go in... then repeat for a few times like this! ....until finally 8pm! I was soooo shattered!

I'm also a bit confused. He was clearly tired around 6/6.30pm.. but then later he didn't seem to be soo tired....I'm aware part of the dragging on was due to the unable to self-soothe issue... but his signs are just sooo confusing! Today's A were no where near what we've done in the last couple of days but he slept ok naps... and he slept at 8pm ....now is one hour on and he hasn't woken up yet... Erhh... usually he would... so I'm totally confused... lost.... He didn't treat that dozing off at my breast as CN, did he? Or was nap 2 the real messer? 

I'll try to stick to your suggestion for the next few days... but just as you said.. it's easier said than done, isn't it? I tried to stick with it today, but it just ended all messed up! 

I know Barbara could be right about the feeding thing... but I also suspect the self-soothe issue as well.. as when we have that loooong NW, it is pretty much the same as our bedtime today.... picking up asleep.. put down awake and play...grrr.... he doesn't really cry for feed at night (he never used to really)... it's only me just feed him once a night as I thought that's what baby of his age needs....but then he could have been used to it by now... so still expect it even without hysterical hungry cries... could be either really...so yea... I'll carry on doing what I'm doing right now for a few more days and see if we have any improvement.

That said, DS used to cry so little and that's why I still couldn't figure out what his cry is what. Barbara - I know it is SOOOO HARD to do PUPD as I actually tried it before (well.. not consistently) but just couldn't take his cries... it breaks my heart!.. so I stopped. That's why I'm really really reluctant to do it! I really hope I can help him to self-soothe and achieve lay-down-awake with GW method... as I'm trying to leave sooner and sooner every time when he sleeps... I kind of find it ok to do at his naps but not really NWs... so I suppose his self-soothing ability needs to be strengthened... 

Laura - your hv gives you advice? Mine's already disappeared after we met her for the first time! She doesn't seem to care how we are doing and I don't know what questions I should ask her.... (as if I'm doing pretty well without her! but as you can see I'm struggling with DS's sleep problems... ) .. oh well.. I suppose she can't really help me anyway... so why bother?

Yep I'm returning to work but not until the end of this year... ... which is great! I want to spend more time with DS before returning work full time... so... but sometimes I really wished I was already back at work especially when I get frustrated with DS... oh well.. just like everybody else! 

Anyways....I'll see how tonight goes and will TRY stick with our suggested routine/A time for the next few days ... will keep you ladies posted!


Thanks a million time! 

T xx

[TurboMum]

Hi ladies...

Morning update....

After that super OT bedtime last night, we had 1 NW at 9.40 (1hr40min into sleep.... ) and then he sort of STTN till 5.56/6.00 this morning!   I am VERY impressed! 

However I don't quite understand his bedtime stuff. As I recall, about a couple of weeks ago he did that partial STTN before. That day he had CN between 5.55 and 6.30 and resisted going down until 9pm (when I aimed for 8pm bedtime) and he slept until 4.55 when I BF him and he went back to sleep until 6.30.  Hmmm... does he need a super long A before bedtime? But then these couple of nights' A weren't consistent either... perhaps I just need to experiment a bit more to find out the pattern? 

But I think Barbara could be right about that feeding thing causing the long NW - perhaps he just got the hang of it last night and didn't bother waking up for it? only God knows... heehee.....

He just went down for his nap 1 after 2hr45/50min A...so will see how it goes....

Weather is LOOOOOOOOOVELY here..... you ladies got any plans for today?

Hope you have a good day! Will keep you posted!

 

T xx

[Barbaara]

That's great news!!   Good job to you mummy! 

If second nap was good, my DD can go almost 3h to bedtime as well.  Although not lately, her A times have decreased again, so I'm guessing she might be teething.

I'm at work today, but I'm taking the afternoon off, so am going to enjoy the lovely weather over here. 

Have a good one!

xx

[mokey_cat]

Hi T - Sorry I have not been on.  We went over to DH's parents to visit and ended up staying overnight.  As I expected, DD did NOT sleep well 

Thats great news about last night!!  Maybe he does need that long A time before bed.  I actually find DD sleeps a lot better if she has a long A too  , but I cant find the right A to keep it up haha.  So maybe you need to just experiment with these longer A's to see if it helps.  I think he has realised there is no point waking as there is no feed  .

XX

[TurboMum]

Hi ladies,

Thanks for your replies and hope you both are well....

Sorry wasn't able to post in the past couple of days as I"ve got some situation at home...DS fell out of his cot the day before and I was really petrified    ...took him to A&E to check up and he seemed fine...(really lucky!) ....so the days were a bit off the track... Although I tried to keep on to his routine, his As weren't quite consistent and we are getting less than 1.5hr naps in the morning and very broken naps in the pm... night was a bit mess as well but overall wasn't too bad...I hope these are just temporary and hope we can get back to normal soon...

Will keep you ladies posted....

Thanks,
T xx

[mokey_cat]

Awww T  .  I hope he is OK!!  DD fell off my bed a few weeks ago and we also had to go to A&E to get her checked - Its very worrying isn't it!!

Take care 

X

[Barbaara]

OMG, I hope everything is ok!

Do you think the fall is related to his routine being all over the place?

Hugs!!

x

[Barbaara]

Helloooooo ladies! 

How are you guys doing?  I hope your LO's are having perfect days and nights (yeah right!  )

Axelle is almost 8,5 mos now, not crawling yet, but it can't be much longer now.  She'll be going to the next group in daycare, so my little girl is growing up waaaaay too fast. 

Hugs and 

Barbara