Wriggling 7 month old wont sleep!!

[TurboMum]

Thanks Nazmommy for your encouragement!! That does give me hope to carry on!!

I think there is quite some way before DS can drop his CN as he's only doing something like 2.5hr A at the most, which is quite short as compared to the guideline which says this age should be doing 2.75-3hrs A and some are getting more! I just hope that in these couple of weeks when I am doing AP, he can catch up some serious sleep and get energise so that we can move to the expected normal A time and hopefully independent sleep training again ()... I'm just worried that my AP will get in his way of sleeping better actually...

I love watching DS falling asleep in my arms - he's got soo many facial expressions soooo cute! But when he wriggles, oh dear, that's hard work! So I actually have the same question - DS cries and rolls all over the place when I try to put him down... he gets on his all fours and cry. If I just pat him and don't pick him up, he'll try to sit (he can now sort of sit up by himself with one hand supporting himself against the floor/mattress) and then sometimes he'll stop crying but start playing his teddy.. ... then he whines, plays, rolls, everything but sleep! When it's taking really long I pick him up and he'll fall asleep within a minute or two... but once I put him down, unless he's really in fast asleep, he'll instantly wake up and gets on his all fours and we start all over again! So, as you can imagine, that's what happened last night again- oh well, not surprisingly! While DS was rolling and playing in his cot, I can see that he’s very very sleepy as he keeps rubbing his eyes, yawning, pulling hair and ear, but he just doesn’t go back to sleep! I felt really hopeless sometimes that he’ll never go back to sleep! But I also cannot hold him for more than half an hour as even if I can bear the soreness of my arms, he’ll start to push me away and kick me… what can I do? Do I really have to get rid of me as a prop first in order for him to start sleep better? I’m sooooo afraid of the OT cycle you know… arhhh… someone got some advice for me to pass this two week’s AP so that he can catch up some sleep first?

Last night wasn’t good obviously. I got him down at 6.30 and he briefly woke up at 7.05 and back to sleep. So I was really happy and optimistic until 9.30 when he woke up again when we started the drama as described above and it lasted for over 2hrs!!!    DH and I were taking turns to get him back to sleep – I know we probably should just stick to one person but we both got really tired after dealing with our little monster for some time and needed other’s help. Oh Gosh… even APOP is so hard! 

Nazmommy – you are soo right that a consistent wake up time is soo hard to come by! So he woke again at 2.30 and then 5ish when I tried to BF him back to sleep – oh well he did until 6.15 (I wished we could make it to 7/7.30 as yesterday but it didn’t happen!  ) …. So short am nap again just now…you can see where I am going? Right – into that short nap vicious OT cycle again! 


Arghhhhhhh……

Sorry this is a bit long… and I’m moaning a bit from the beginning of the day… how great! 

[nazmommy]

Turbo Mom,
That's okay to moan!  That's what we are all here for!  I have done my fair share of moaning!  I am sure that I have more moaning to come! 
Last night sounds awful!  Those about how our nights go.  I am still doing apop right now.  Its harder on me but it has kept the ot monster away.  I am ready (or not) to start to pull the apop away slowly.  We don't have the 2 hour battle right now because of the apop.  Go with your heart.   
When dd woke up this morning around 3:30, she was happy!!  I let her talk in her crib till she cried and then nursed her back to sleep.   She woke up around 11:30, 3:30, 5:00, and 7:30.  Its so hard being a mommy, huh? 
Yes, it may be too early to give up the catnap.  We didn't give up our cat nap either till the OT monster went away.
I did lots of apop at this stage so we could get her out of her vicious ot cycle.  It really helped. 
My advice is go with your heart with the apop thing.  You will eventually give yourself up as a prop but right now, the OT monster is the one to beat, not yourself.  Once the OT cycle is busted (and it will get better), you can slowly work yourself as a prop away.   
Why is your lo taking short naps?  My lo jerked really bad at 30 and 40 minutes, and every 10 minutes or so afterwards. She jerked a lot from OT I think but she still does jerk at 30 and 40 minutes but she is way better at getting over them.   I had to stay by her crib for weeks and watch her nap so I could hold my hand on her when she jerked while she slept. During those weeks, I learned a lot about how she slept!  SLOWLY but surely, I was able to back off from that.  She has naps mostly independently now!  Thanks Becky!!
You are doing awesome.  Don't be afraid to go with your heart.  Pray and listen.  He will get you through. 
I am anxious to hear about what the ladies suggest with our wriggling LO's!

[TurboMum]

Thanks Nazmommy!

I am also anxious to hear what others say!

Your kind words and encouragement really mean a lot to me! Thank you so much! But I'm really down at the mo as we had a horrible day - DS stayed up for 4hrs before bedtime  and both of us were crying until DH came back from work and helped. Even APOP didnt' work. Maybe because it is getting really hot here DS resists going to bed HARD!?!?!?  I don't know...   Grrr... ... just have to look forward to tomorrow as a new start. Just dread for tonight....

I think DS is taking short naps because I can't get his A right. His cues are very confusing. There were very occassional times that I got it right and he slept 2hrs without a peep. But then the next day it didn't work any more.... 

He used to jerk quite a lot at 5min, 10min and 15min mark into sleep and I couldn't figure out why until someone reminded me that if they do a lot of exercise during A time, they will jerk. So I have cut down his tummy time quite a lot especially half an hour before his nap time and that seemed help a lot. Maybe you can keep an eye on your LO's exercise during A time and see if that need adjustment?

Hope you have a good night....

T xx

[clazzat]

(((hugs))), T - sounds like you are having a difficult time.  The moving around in the cot is a very developmental thing - this phase will pass too, but it is difficult when they are OT with it.

If you are trying to APOP, don't put him down the minute he is asleep - as you have noticed, he will wake up again and you will have to keep going through the whole process.  Either put him down drowsy but awake, or, if you think he needs the sleep more than he needs the independence, hold him until he is properly asleep - probably at least 20 minutes.

Does he sleep in the buggy or the car?  If he does, maybe you should try getting him to sleep in the buggy/car for the first nap and the CN and work on independent sleep for the middle nap.  That way he should be getting just about enough sleep to keep the OT monster at bay, but you can also aim for a bit of sleep training.

[TurboMum]

Thanks clazzat! oh I really hope that passes soon... but I've just discovered DS is trying to crawl now... so oh well.. that's gonna add more fun to his bedtime, isn't it? Oh well....

Yep I always try to put him down drowsy as even if I'm APOP I don't really wanna go too far... but I found that it works when I first put him down for sleep every time but it is really difficult to do that if he wakes in the middle of his sleep (either nap or night sleep).... so I have to hold him for longer as you suggested, just my little nasty boy cannot tolerate me sitting down - I have to stand there holding him and swinging gently as well....otherwise he complaints with loud cries... nasty little monster! He just doesn't know how heavy he is huh? And Mommy is knackered without getting much rest huh? He doesn't sleep in buggy or in the car, so oh well.... I will try to hold him for at least 20min next time if it happens again...  oh dear... it's hard being a mommy, isn't it? (oh what can I say Nazmommy?!  )

Last night we had quite a few NWs (as expected! ) but there were a few times he woke up crying but then stopped quite quickly, we thought he went back to sleep so we sneaked behind the door and check on him - he was playing his teddy in his cot! Seems really good fun!   I was trying to leave him but he needs sleep! So me and DH had to pick him up and rock him to sleep each time! What do you think I should do next time this happens? Leave him or get him back to sleep straight away?

Thanks a lot for your kind advice! It helps a lot! 

T xx
 

[~inbalance~]

Hi TurboMum, sorry things aren't looking up yet!  I seem to remember going through so much of what you described, and never really knew why but can say that things did settle down.  Trying to crawl already!  He's quite the active little one!  At least it'll be over with now (although you'll be quite busy chasing him around!   )

My DS is the same with holding him, I can't sit down either (sometimes I just want to so bad!)

I would suggest NOT going to him unless he is crying for you (true crying - not intermittent or mantra).  Even if he is only playing, just leave him until he cries like he needs you.  The more you interfere, the less opportunities he has to learn how to just put himself to sleep.  The waking up and playing sounds developmental, so it will probably pass.

You're right, being a mummy is hard!!   

[clazzat]

I agree with Martina - if he is not crying for you then leave him be.  It is so frustrating when they are playing and you know that they should be asleep, but he does have to learn to sleep on his own - and also learn to stop playing so that he can go to sleep.

[clazzat]

Oh, and I could never sit down with dd1 - but dh could...

[TurboMum]

Thanks Martina and clazzat!

I know that I shouldn't go in too quick but it is just hard to hold back for a little longer when you hear your LO is crying in there (oh like everybody else! ) and especially at night when all you want him to do is SLEEP! I think I can hold back with his mantra cry but sometimes he does what Matina mentioned intermittent cry (or not quite intermittent ?!?!) that I'm not quite sure if it's real cry or soothing cry  ....so after I wait for a bit(probably about 1min or so) and then go in. DH is worse in this - when I held him back at the door sometimes, he was literally stepping his feet wanting to go in straight away... oh dear... and strangely the same here, DH can sit with him! 

I think I will really try very very hard to hold back for a bit when he cries.... hopefully I can figure out the difference of his real cry and not so real cry () soon... fingers crossed! 

Thank you ladies soo much for being this supportive!  That's why BW is the only website I'm in everyday now! hoho....

T xx

[clazzat]

If it's an intermittant cry, he almost certainly doesn't need your help - I have often been guilty of listening to her cry on and off for a while, have her go quiet on me while I'm on the way to her room and then gone in the minute she has cried again: it has never been the right thing to do!    I have to wait until she has been crying solidly for a couple of minutes to be sure that she actually needs me.

[nazmommy]

Turbo Mom,
I can't sit with DD either.   She just won't tolerate it.  At night after nursing, she will let me and that's so sweet.  She will fall asleep on DH if they go for a walk but that really ruins our nap schedule! Oh well.
Keep at it!  You are doing a good job!  Go with your heart!
I love this website too!  It has really been a life saver.   What a blessing!
I struggle with going over too quick too.  Her crib is in our room so all I have to do is get out of our bed and I'm there with her.  So, its hard to not just go over there.  I am really tired though and so I am getting better and just laying really, really still for an extra minute and seeing what kind of cry it is.  Those cries are hard too read, especially at night! When she wakes up happy and chatty though, I let her play until she cries.  She talks really cute, so I enjoy laying there and listening! =)
I will thinking about you and praying for you and your lo today!  Many blessing to you!

Question:  is it normal for my dd to cry EVERY time she goes to sleep?  Its not a horrible cry, just a going to sleep cry.  But she does it almost every time.  Am I not timing something right or is she just soothing her self?

[~inbalance~]

nazmommy - I think it's totally normal for a baby to cry as they're going to sleep as a method of self soothing - as long as she's going to sleep easily I don't see any problems. 

I think one of the biggest mistakes I made in the beginning was jumping on my LO's every wimper.  I hardly read any books at the beginning and knew nothing!  So every noise he made I went to him.  This went on for months and months and I really believe it is a MAJOR part of all the struggles we've had with sleep.  Even once I wised up (when he was about 6 months) I still had a hard time not going to him.

I agree with clazzat, if it's intermittent and stops and starts, chances are he doesn't need you.  I too have listened to DS do that on and off for awhile, and one of two things will happen:  if he really needs me, he'll turn it into a proper cry, then and only then will I go in, or he will go to sleep.  The more he goes to sleep on his own, the better he will get at it.

Don't feel hopeless or that you're not getting it right, it really is hard and it took me a really long time to sort out what was going on.  And we still don't always get it right!  But it's so much better now, and I feel so much better having gone through it because now I know my baby so much more than before. 

[Ethan's Mom]

Hi Ladies, I posted my DS's wriggling problem in this thread some weeks back and still couldnt find any solution yet. (((huggss))) to all of you having the same problem. For Turbomum, so sorry to hear DS's problem, guess we are having almost the same type of son who would scream and cry sooo LOOUDD...

I just wonder if anyone would take a look at my DS's routine and see whether there is any problem with it ( I posted at NW's & EASY's board but they say there is nothing wrong with my DS's problem, might be just teething, growth spurt and developmental milestones ). But I wonder whether it takes this long ( NW has been last these past 2 months ). DS is currently 7.5mo

5am  : EW & nurse ( mostly going back to sleep )
7am  : wake up & BF ( solid 1 hour after BF )
10.15am - 12.15pm  : S
12.15pm  : wake up & BF ( solid 1 hour after BF )
3.15pm - 3.45pm : S ( getting short recently, previously could handle 1 - 1.5h pm nap )
3.45pm  : wake up & BF ( solid 1 hour after BF )
6.30pm  : BF
6.45pm  : put to bed for night time sleep

DF   : already dropped the DF since 2 weeks ago

Problem :
a. NW & EW coincidently since the day he started solid ( 6 months old ). No food allergic so far.
b. NW  : varies day by day, one time he would wake up every 4 hour. At the other time every 2 hour. Before 6mo, he has been STTN since 4mo

Recent problem :
a. pm nap get wonky, he would roll over, wriggle all over his cot for though he seems tired ( yawn several times ). At the end he would scream and cry so loud due to OT.
b. I did APOP ( nursing ) lately to put him to bed ( except the night sleep, explain in point C below ). But seems today he wouldnt go to sleep without me nursing him. Im wondering if Im creating a prop
c. Previously he would easily fall asleep somewhere at 6-7pm. But this week he even refused nursing before 7pm sleep. He would wriggle and fight me everytime I take him to his room. At the end he got super OT and fall asleep at 9 - 9.30pm on my breast. ( Finally he accept the nursing after many tries ).

Need your help please... thank you before !

[~inbalance~]

Hi Ethan's Mom - I'm sorry we didn't answer your last post, I remember seeing it and meant to reply!!!  Here are a few of my thoughts.

With the pm nap, it might be worth a shot to try a slight increase in A time after his first nap (15mins only).  Since his first nap is 2hrs, he might be a bit UT for the pm nap.  You can always give it a try and see if that nap lengthens out again.

If you were using nursing as AP for so long, I think it's a really good bet that it has become a prop and is probably a part of the problem for NWs.  I did the same thing!  And for months DS would wake erratically thinking he would get to nurse.  He wasn't even hungry most of the time, but he was looking for the breast to help him soothe.  You may have to try pupd to help teach him how to settle without nursing.  Remember, if you are still feeding even once a night, your LO doesn't have the capacity to think 'ok, my feed comes at 3am so I'll just sleep until then'.  Every time he wakes up, he is thinking 'maybe I'll get fed now'.  One way to remedy this is to not feed at all during the night, then he will no not to expect it so when he wakes he won't bother asking.  Some moms and/or LOs aren't ready for this jump yet, some do it at the same age.  It's very personal.  I started thinking about stopping night feeds at 7 months, but didn't actually do it until 10 months!     But once I did stop feeding, DS stopped waking.

Developmental, teething and growth spurts probably all have something to do with your issues, so the people who suggested those things had the right idea.  I know it's so hard to figure out what the specific problem is at the time.  I think it's fair to say that sleep gets a little crazy at this time when all those things are going on, so we have to do our best to get through it and just know that all of those things are temporary and will pass.

I went though the same thing as you, we always had NWs for months and months and I would spend so much time wondering why.  Most of the time I never really figured it out, just had to do what I could to get by. 

With the solids, do you keep a diary or log?  Have you asked your LO's doctor about potential allergies or sensitivities?  Because you have mentioned that the NWs started at the same time, it might be worth looking into a little futher, just to rule out the possibilities of solids causing the problem.

Erratic NWs can be the result of teeth, or hunger from growth spurts.  Does your LO settle easily?  Does he seem to be in pain?  Have you tried pain meds for teething to see if that helps?  Sorry about all the questions!  Sometimes figuring it out you have to be a detective, and it's a lot of trial and error.

Hope that's a good start! 

[TurboMum]

Thank you ladies soooo much for your replies! Reading them makes me feel being cared and not alone.... I just cannot thank you enough!

Yup... I agree that it does take long to sort out what is going on... after all... each of our LOs is an individual person whom we just need to take time to get to know them better and better...... it's tough work but looking at his smiles when he's awake, it just makes me feel sooo worth it! 

I went though the same thing as you, we always had NWs for months and months and I would spend so much time wondering why.  Most of the time I never really figured it out, just had to do what I could to get by. 

Ethan's Mom - DS had NWs for about two months by now (before he was a really good night sleeper! I really miss that little guy!) but it is only recently that I believed it is the OT cycle... but TBH I'm still not quite sure... I'm just gonna take my pace and do whatever I feel is right

Nazmommy - thank you for your blessings! yOu are so kind! And your LO is indeed such a CUTIE! Enjoy her!



T xx