NWs+EWs+bad routine+co-sleeping *Can I have a little more advice(March)*?

[Roseii]

I have done several posts about this and had some really great help, thanks so much to those who have replied  

DD is 16m, STTN (11 hours) maybe 7 times total. Did go through a stage that ended about 3 weeks ago of sleeping 9/10 hours a night, I was very pleased with this but was APing her to sleep and for any NWs.

I was lying in bed at 3am last night with DD clambering over me and DH and thinking I need to re-evaluate the whole situation and REALLY do something about it this time.

I can't handle GW it's tiring me out and I have barely got anywhere with it (my fault) I may be giving up too quickly but I feel DD may need a little "toughening up" iykwim. I am thinking about cutting straight to WI/WO and dealing with the screaming for a few nights...

So naps are now TERRIBLE. Even when I think I have timed her morning A time perfectly she wakes after maybe 55 mins, miserable but won't settle again. She is all but impossible to settle for an afternoon nap, sometimes she might kip in the car if I go out, but obviously I'm not always going out. I know she is in the 2-1 transition but for now I do think she needs 2 naps.
11 hour nights *seem* to suit her well, the times she has STTN have always been 8pm-7am or thereabouts, and if she goes to bed anytime earlier than 8 I cannot get her to sleep in past 6am whatever I do. Because of DH's working hours an 8pm bedtime is good too...

So an example of our days right now:

A 5am, out her in bed with me, generally goes back to sleep
A 7am
S 10.30am
A 11.20am (often miserable)

Then it's anyone's guess...on a good day there's a small chance I can settle her for another nap after say 3 hours A time, on a bad day she might sleep 30 mins of sofa...

Bedtime around 8pm
She tends to sleep well through the evening to say 12-1am, then might wake 1am, 3am, 5am.

I can't see any real evidence of teething, I have tried medicating the past 2 nights but no joy.
Last night I did get her to sleep for 7.15am thinking that might help, consequently she was up at 8.30pm, 9.30pm, 2.30am-3.45am and up for the day at 6am.

Sorry this has been a long rambling post.

What I am hoping to achieve is a 13 hour day with 2 naps but I have NO IDEA what her A times should be   Should they be the same in the AM and PM??

11 hour night e.g 8pm-7am with no/fewer NWs

WI/WO to get her off to sleep with a view to completing this process quite quickly and being able to put her to bed say night night and walk out for the evening.

Impossible?

Please please please any help or advice I would be eternally grateful  

[anna*]

((((hugs)))) this is not a test! There is no pass or fail!

I think your plan to go to WIWO is a good one. The 'rules' of GW were always too vague for me, I need a concrete plan, a concrete set of instructions

I would aim for something like this. You could stick to it for a few days until she is settling a bit more quickly and then review and see what is or isn't working.

7am awake for the day
11am nap max 1hr
3pm nap max 2hrs
8pm asleep for the night

Now this is based on my preference for the 2-1 nap transition, for a shorter morning nap and longer pm nap.

All naps in cot (not on sofa) and all NWs settled with WIWO.

What do you think?

[Shiv52]

I like Anna's routine.  We do 11 hour night-13 hour day and it suits us. 

We had a lot of sickness over Christmas which led to a lot of co-sleeping and APing at night.  We have been trying for weeks with GW but can't get out the door without there being major drama and its taking ages for her to fall asleep and DH actually said to me last night that we had to change things.  I actually agree.  Its like she checking we're still there and its stopping her from falling asleep.  So we are starting WI-WO tonight!  If I can do it, you can do it!  DH was all for just putting her in bed and leaving her to it (doesn't really have a clue) so have emailed him the info so he can have a read!   She is totally fine going to sleep for naps, out in 2 minutes with me sitting by the door but bedtime is a different matter! 

You can do it! Just think how nice it will be to put her to bed and thats you free to do what you need to do! {{{{hugs}}}

[Roseii]

Thanks so much for your replies Anna and Shiv, it's amazing how easily you can feel like a failure as a mother sometimes 

I definitely need a concrete plan, I won't follow it otherwise! I definitely think shorter AM longer PM naps are the way to go Anna and I am liking the look of that plan.

If she has had a bad night, how early do you think I should risk putting her down for the AM nap? I am just sure she wouldn't manage 4 hours from 7-11 if she had had NWs...I did 3 hours today and she just about slept 35 mins so maybe I did it too early?

So today so far has gone

A 6am
S 9am
A 9.35am
S 2.20pm (is now 3.10pm and I am dreading her waking up soon, I reeealllly want her to get a good nap!!)

And what do you do when they wake up too early from a nap?? I.e if she woke after 1 hour 15 mins from her afternoon nap, how long realistically should I try to get her back to sleep? At night obviously if it takes 45 mins that's not a huge problem because over all I'm hoping to keep her in bed for 11 hours, but what if it's a nap?? The longest nap she has ever taken is 1 hour 50 mins...

Shiv sorry you have been having troubles too, glad she at least settles well for naps for you. Good luck for tonight! How are you going to go about WI/WO? I'm not even sure what the "rules" are with that? I mean what if she screams constantly with no let up, do you still leave the room for a few seconds?

And Shiv, how long does Maeve sleep for in the day?

Thanks again so much I feel better already feeling like I might be on the road to improving things 

[anna*]

What's her temperament? I would be inclined to stick to set nap times and set bedtime tbh. The 2-1 transition is so tough, I really think you need to do anything you can to give it a bit more structure. Bedtime can be 30 mins early if it has been a crap nap day.

Re short naps, I would do WIWO for 15 mins. You'll know by then if she's going to settle or not. The nice thing about doing a short am nap is that if she gives you an OT nap it doesn't matter too much.

Hope she gives you a good nap today.

[Roseii]

Is there a temperament quiz for toddlers? Looking back I think she was a touchy/spirited baby...

I think set nap and bed times might be the way forward...

Well she woke after 1 hour and I wanted to cry  She wouldn't settle, haven't started WI/WO yet and figured then probably wasn't an ideal time to start! I brought her downstairs and let her sleep on me for another hour so at least she had a 2 hour nap in total, in the hope that might help bedtime tonight...

[anna*]

It's here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52284.0

When do you think you're going to start WIWO?

[Roseii]

Oh brill, thank you, I will do that later when she is (hopefully!) in bed. She seems very tired right now, not narky just clingy and cuddly, but I am going to push her to 7.45pm as she woke at 4.30pm...

Well she has really bad nappy rash right now which she never ever gets, it is making her quite miserable, so I am thinking I want that to be better first (got some cream from doc today) I also need DH to be totally on board so I will talk to him tonight. I am thinking Saturday night if she seems ok bottom-wise! I actually don't really have a clue how to do it though!! I don't want it to turn into controlled crying but also need to get somewhere with it and not  turn it back into GW where I just end up staying in her room all the time!

x

[anna*]

OK let's talk about controlled crying. With controlled crying, you let them cry and go back in 1 minute, then 2 minutes, then 5 minutes, then 10 minutes, then 15... etc. There's no listening to the way in which they're crying, and when you're a tiny person with no sense of time, 5 mins crying for your mama must seem like an eternity. Some CC advocates going in and giving them a little cuddle and lying them down at the designated times - some recommends peeking in on them without them seeing you - so that you're satified they're 'OK', but as far as they are concerned they have been alone the whole time.

Then there's CIO: With crying it out, you don't respond at all. You just let them cry until they fall asleep, however long it takes.

Now I won't lie to you, there is going to be a LOT of crying when you do WIWO. Hysterical crying. She might cry until she throws up (I'm just saying it's a possibility). But there are a few critical differences (and please keep in mind that BW is not a 'no-cry' solution). One difference is that you will be listening carefully to what she is saying with her cries. If she is yelling angry, you might leave her a little longer. If she is mantra crying or stop-start crying, you will leave her to figure it out. If she is sobbing fearfully, you will go in sooner. If she's genuinely crying, you won't leave her longer than maybe a minute max. And another difference is that when you do go back in to her, you'll be offering her guidance - letting her know what it is you need her to do.

WIWO teaches a lesson. You have to go to sleep in your cot by yourself, but mummy will ALWAYS come to you if you cry.

Here's how it goes: you do your usual wind-down, give some lovely cuddles, give her a kiss, tell her it's time to sleep now, leave the room. Listen to her cry. Listen to it for at least 15-20 seconds, probably more like 30. Count out loud to yourself, or watch the second hand on your watch. Then go in, lie her down, tell her it's time to sleep, leave the room even though she will still be crying and getting to her feet. Repeat. It is critically important that you listen to the crying for 20-30 seconds every time. If she stops crying even for a moment, stop counting, then start counting again when she starts crying. So you will only go to her if she has been crying continuously for 30 seconds. And when you go in, you don't pick up, don't cuddle, don't pat back - just lie her down (perhaps with a quick kiss on the forehead) and tell her your key sleep phrase.

As time goes on, you can stretch the Walk Out part for up to a minute. I used to have a pencil and paper on the landing and would mark off how many times I WIWO'ed just as a distraction from the crying.

The same rules apply as for PUPD. At nap time, you do WIWO for 45 mins, and if after that time she's not settling, you abandon the nap, bring the next nap forwards, and do WIWO again for the next nap. At bedtime and for night wakings you just keep going until she sleeps.

[londonmama]

Just reading along.  I am a MAJOR wimp with crying - I just can't tolerate it (feel sad for him, plus the sound gets in my brain!).  So I always try to solve things with routine tweaks rather than WI/WO (though you may have to do some WI/WO at some point and Anna's post is so helpful with the details).

Your routine from today - if I had to guess, I would say the 35 min nap was UT this morning.  But then she did nearly 5 hours of A time until the second nap - is that because she wouldn't go down earlier or is that just what time you tried for the nap?

If she wouldn't go down earlier, I would personally chop that AM nap down shorter.  My guy (who is 13.5 months, but low sleep needs) does 20 or 30 mins in the AM and never earlier than 9:15 no matter how early he gets up (which is often v. early).  Then I do about 3 hours - 3 hrs 15 mins until Nap 2.  If nap 2 starts later than about 1:30, then bedtime gets pushed out too late and he ends up OT.

So your DD woke at 6:00 this morning but because of the late nap, she didn't go to bed until 7:45.  That is a nearly 14 hour day.  Here that would be a very long day.  So if it were me, I would try to get her down for nap 2 earlier and down for the night not much more than 13 hours after waking. 

Not sure if that is helpful, but would be great if you could avoid too much hysterical WI/WO by getting the routine smooth first!

Re: the sore bottom.  My DS only ever gets that when he is teething.  Could she be getting some nasty big teeth that are making sleep even harder than normal?

[anna*]

Totally agree with Londonmama on her assessment of today, and on the nappy rash/teething.

[Roseii]

Anna that is great, thank you, I didn't know half of that about WI/WO. I like the idea of reading her different cries and not necessarily having to intervene at every single cry, much as it will be hard to sit outside her room listening to it.
Marking times/numbers with a paper and pencil is a good idea too, I need something like that to concentrate on.
Trying for 45 mins for a nap sounds do-able, even sitting right next to her it sometimes takes half an hour. Hopefully after one or two days she might get the hang of that. Need to coach DH now!!

Thanks for your reply Londonmama, I wish all it was was routine issues, and obviously there are a lot of them, but unfortunately DD has never learnt to fall asleep independently so I either need to do GW or WI/WO if I want to get her to self-settle (which I really do as baby #2 is on the way) And I realised afterwards that it was a long A time between the naps, that's the time I tried, she didn't refuse prior to that...And you're right, 14 hour day is waaaay too long, I was just so hesitant to put her down any earlier as any less than 3 hours A time between nap and bed has always been a disaster...And she did fall asleep within 5 mins when I took her up so either I timed it right or she was totally whacked and it will impact tonight!! (I am dreading NWs tonight, got work tomo)
I can't see any evidence of teething but it is always a possibility, she only has 8 teeth so far, plenty more to come! The nappy rash is fungal poor baby but we have got some cream to treat it so fingers crossed it will clear up quickly. I gave her calpol before bed as she didn't seem herself.

Praying for a good night tonight as she is at MIL's tomo and never naps well there. I am going to encourage MIL to get her down for 2 naps, normally she only tries for one with easily 6 hours A time beforehand 

[Roseii]

^ could not get rid of that random "oops" on the third line even when I previewed my post, how weird! ^

[londonmama]

Sorry, just read the part about needing the 8 pm bedtime.  That is tricky.  I would love an 8 pm bedtime, but my DS has pretty much never woken up in the 7s.  He does best with a 6:30 pm - 6:00 am schedule.  If I push bedtime later than 7, he wake at 5.  Every time.

If your DD is waking at 6, could you try a 7:00 bedtime just to try to stabilise her with 2 naps (1 short AM, 1 long PM) and an 11 hour night and then try pushing the whole day later bit by bit?  I just think it will be hard to perservere with the 8 pm bedtime if she never wakes later than 6:00 or 6:30 because the OT from doing 10 hour nights will just build and build.  I don't think even good naps can replace a nice long night sleep, in terms of avoiding OT.

But I have resigned myself to early beds (more time to myself in the evening) and early rises (not fun, but I would rather he STTN and wake at 6:00, than have NWs...and this seems to be my choice right now) so maybe I shouldn't advise re: bedtimes!

[londonmama]

Poor her with the fungal rash.  Hope it clears up soon.

Don't worry too much about her day with MIL...my DS does 6.5 hours A time usually before his 1 nap at daycare (!!).  No idea how he copes.  He then only sleeps for 1.5 hours or less.  On the days he is home with me we do 2 naps and he seems to catch up.  I also do majorly early bedtimes on daycare days (like 5:55 pm both daycare days this week!).

The independent sleep will come and it will be so much easier when the routine is better.  On your 2 nap days, try to keep her up until 9:30 or 10:00 (then 45 min nap, or whatever time you're doing) then get her down by 1:30 or 2:00 ish in the PM, then you should be able to fit in your 3 hours before bedtime (agree that less than that is a disaster...here too) and go with a 7:00 pm bedtime whenever you can and whenever she's been up early.

Really hope things get better!