7 mo old with 6 - 7 NWs every night. Getting desperate for help

[Emma-Rose's mom]

I'm sure everyone has their share of lack of sleep, but I am getting desperate to the point that I am getting rather depressed. And, I am normally a very happy person.

I've posted before about NWs, but I'm not sure what else to do. DS just turned 7 months. I had him in swaddle, and just recently weaned him from it, hoping that swaddle weaning would help his night sleep and improve his NWs, but so far, his wake patterns at night have not improved.

He wakes 6 - 7 times every night. I'm so frustrated. He used to sleep independently when he was swaddled, but since we have just weaned from swaddle, he is having to learn how to do that all over again w/o swaddle. For naps currently, he sometimes is able to drift off on his own. Othertimes I have to rock him and pat him to sleep in my arms then lay him down. I feel like by the time he finally gets to sleep and I finally drift off to sleep myself, I get 20 minutes of a snooze in before he's crying out again (or more like screaming again). He keeps waking up every 40-45 minutes. If I'm lucky, he'll sleep 1.5 hours before waking, but on average, I'm up 6 times per night.

Then daylight comes, and he's a happy boy. What the heck is so different from day and night? He's a textbook/angel baby by day and becomes touchy/spirited at night.

His day starts around 6:30 AM. Takes two naps, one in morning, and one in afternoon. He usually gives me one power nap of 45 minutes in the morning and one long nap of 1.5 - 2 hours in the afternoon, or sometimes that gets switched around. A time is about 2.5 hours - 3 hours. He does not take paci, does not nurse to sleep. But he has a night time lovey. When I lay him down initially to sleep at night, he can fall asleep on his own half the time. During resettling at night, I am APing by rocking back sleep after NWs because when I get up that many times a night, he's OT and is not able to do it by himself, and pu/pd seems to only agitate him.

Has anyone else battled multiple NWs? What has worked? What didn't? DH is ready to let DS CIO and I am totally against it. But, we are both sooooo tired.

[Chazziesmom]

Mine just turned 7 months today and started this last week!  Some friends say maybe teething, cause its crazy!  I had him sleeped trainied from 4 months on the EASY plan and now he is out of whack!  Wakes a lot at night, fights his naps, usually I have to stay in there with him and talk or touch his back until he is asleep, if not he ends up screaming and working himself up- maybe a little seperation anxiety too cause that started 2 weeks ago!  Help me too!

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Chazziesmom, I TOTALLY feel for you. These NWs are driving me crazy, too. Definitely hop on here and see if we can take a look. I know I'm struggling too, but maybe I can offer some support.

Jane, yes, with solids, we started at 6 months. And yes, I was wondering if this might have something to do with DS's NWs? He was constipated so badly, even when he was ebf. He actually went 9 days w/o poop! Now that he's on solids, it's aweful. He's still constipated, and he has a really hard time. I always have to "help" him poop by yanking his knees up, like I'm helping him give birth. Kinda funny in a way, but I feel for him. I'm wondering if it's causing discomfort. Anyway, I give him prune juice every day, and he's still constipated. But, with that being said, he has a great disposition and naps relatively well during the day, so I'm not sure if it's solids either. Can solids change night-time sleep patterns? He also popped 2 teeth recently. Got his 2nd one yesterday, and his first one two weeks ago. He's been popping teething tablets. But all of this has me confused, just because he started the NWs at around 4 months. Could he have been working on teeth this entire time?

Routine... a little different daily, but yesterday, he did this...
6:30 solids/bf
9:00 nap (goes down after 2.5 hours for A time, usually for morning and usually sleeps independently here)
9:45 wake (sometimes will nap longer until 10:30)

10:30 bf
11:45 lunch
12:45 nap (A time usually around 3 hours for mid-morning, and sometimes sleeps independently, sometimes not, but gives me long nap here, around 1.5 hours minimum if he gave me 1.5 hour morning nap, but can be 2 hours or more if he gives me a 45 minute morning powernap)

3:30 bf

6:30 dinner/bf
7:00 bath/bedtime routine
7:30 bed

First two NW at 8:15, 9:00
10:30 df
More NWs at 1:30, 2:30, 3:30... the 3:30 one, he was up for over an hour, totally wide awake, then finally slept until morning...

Routine does change a bit everyday because of DD1's schedule of activities. Sometimes night-time he can get OT, and he does squeeze in a catnap around 5:45 for 20 minutes or so, but sometimes he's fine and is up.

Ideas, ideas?

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Jane, that does help. Thank you. I totally agree with you about the nighttime A time being too long and that he really needs an earlier bedtime. I just don't know how to do it and make it work with our family's schedule. DH doesn't get home until 5:45, so that's when I start to make dinner, and he also wants to spend some time with his son, too. I try to get DS down earlier, but by the time dinner is on the table by 6:30, the earliest I can get DS started on his bedtime routine is 7:00, etc. etc... But, maybe I can try to get him down, even if it is just 30 minutes earlier.

I don't give water during meals, but I bf after solids to wash it all down, so to speak, and to deal with his thirst. Should I be giving water instead?

As for the morning A time, it varies a lot, because DD1 has swim lessons, storytime, and various activities that are scheduled for her during the day, so sometimes DS has a shorter A time, and othertimes I can fully stretch him out to 3 hours. It's always better when we can be at home, but having two babies that are two and under makes it challenging. I've had to compromise a lot and I've had to try to make EASY work within the constraints that I have. But, it's not always ideal.  But, I totally agree with everything that you said, and I'll be working on it and trying to make it a better routine for DS when I can.

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Okay, I'll try that today. Offer water with meals, 1 hour after bfing.

Chazziesmom, how are things going with you?

[JLSPAS09]

Emma Rose,

I just read your first post and could've written it myself about my LO. She is 8 months tomorrow and has been having 5-7 NW for the past 3 weeks. It's been torture. She was also swaddled until 7mos. We weaned because she was rolling over and getting stuck on her face and also busting out every few hours. So, back to square one. Is your LO on the verge of crawling at all? Have you seen any signs of separation anxiety? I have noticed that my LO is in a developmental phase where if I leave the room (even for a few seconds) she cries. I've read where this can definitely affect night time sleep because our LO's wake up and find that we're not there. Also, if they are on the brink of a developmental milestone (such as crawling or pulling up) they can get fascinated with 'practicing' at night to master their new skill instead of sleeping. Obviously, they're tired so they cry from exhaustion and frustration.

My LO is eating plenty during the day, so we've ruled out hunger. She also has no teeth yet (so teething may be possible) but teething tablets and/or motrin haven't reduced the NW's so we've ruled that out as well.

We are completely sleep deprived and running on fumes in our house. I'm sorry that I've been no help BUT I'm glad to know that my LO isn't the only one out there going through this!! I'll keep up with this thread to see if anyone offers any helpful suggestions Until then, hang in there! We're trying to do the same!

Jamie

[lhosk]

just hopping on...

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Jamie, I'm so sorry to hear that you are struggling with the same issues, but at the same time, I must admit I'm glad that I'm not alone in this. Sometimes I feel like I've just been a terrible mommy. DD1 thrived on bw and sttn very early, thanks to a great routine and sleep training. But, I, sometimes feel as if maybe DS2 has had less attention and less routine, less of everything and somehow that has translated into bad sleep patterns. But, I'm starting to feel that it has a lot to do with temperment as much as anything else. From day 1, DS2 has always been a more "difficult" baby. Great disposition, generally, but much more prone to cry, more colicky, more needy, etc. I have to admit, I'm not surprised that DS has sleep problems, but I'm starting to accept the fact that it's not all my fault. Thanks for jumping on. We can definitely help each other.

Yes, you are definitely right about the SA. DS can't stand it when I leave. He plays independently in my line of sight, but if he seems me leave, it's instant cry. I've actually started to turn him away from me before I leave the room for a few minutes to just go to the bathroom or do simple tasks. He popped two teeth, but sleep habits are still bad, so I'm sure teeth exagerated an all-ready bad situation, but I'm ruling that out as the main culprit.

But, I was meaning to ask you, with regards to developmental milestones. Is your DD really active, physical when you put her down? I feel like DS is sooooo active. He's always fighting everything. If I pick him up, he pulls against me, arches his back, kicks, squirms, but doesn't cry. He eventually calms down so I can rock him. Yet, at the same time, if I put him down, he's not happy either and kicks and squirms on the floor or in his crib, only he cries and cries. Sometimes I feel like I can't win. So, when he has his NWs, I'm dreading it, wondering how long it will take me to get him settled enough so he would fall back asleep. Half the time, I'm hoping I won't drop him as he worms around in my arms. I feel like I can't even properly sleep train, can't sh/pt in crib because he's squirming, screaming; pu/pd used to work but now just agitates him and everything escalates. It's like...uh... where did I go wrong? Now, I can't even go back to swaddle. Way too old for that and he's too strong for swaddle now, anyway.

Well, anyway, I'm sure I wasn't much help with your situation, but I hope that you get a nap in, maybe when your lo goes down for her nap? Sending sleepy sand!

 

[mommytot]

Oh, I feel like we are talking about my DD in here!  Maybe it's the time of year? HAHA!

I feel for you guys!  My DD (will be 8 months on May.15th) was at the point where she was sleeping a good 7 hour stretch each night, and then for the last 6 painful weeks has been waking to nurse a minimum of 5 times.  If I send my DH in, she just screams until I come and bf her.  The only good things right now is that she does go right back to sleep after I nurse her...but I don't!!  It takes me forever to fall asleep probably because I am overtired. :-(

My DD spent the first 6 months sleeping on my husband's chest.  We finally got her into a crib by swaddling her, and then she started rolling over, so we now have her unswaddled.  What gets me is that she can and does put herself to sleep great!  (This has only been over maybe the last 2 weeks...)  I nurse her, then change her into her jammies, read a book and put her in her crib.  She always rolls to her tummy, and loves to have a paci in her mouth, and another in her hand.  At this point, I don't care if she wants to have one for each finger and toe...it works.  It takes her anywhere from 5-20 minutes, and occasionally some fussing, but she puts herself to sleep without crying.  I don't see why she needs to nurse back to sleep every 1-2 hours!!!

My DH is like yours, Emma-Rose's Mom...we have tried so much, and he basically can't see any other option BUT to let her CIO.  

And my DD's naps aren't always great.  I'm starting to think it might be a small part of the equation.  For example, two nights ago she had 3 naps (the last being from 4:15-4:45) and went down at 8:30.  She only woke 3 times that night.  Yesterday, she had only 2 naps, but of greater total length than the day before, had way too long of awake time (From 2-8:30) and was up every 1.5 hours.  But I don't always see such a correlation.
And it's hard too, because I do have an older DS who is in school (he's 7), and so we do have to ensure we pick him up, take him to school, etc..

I really wish she could just tell me what it is causing this issue, so I could fix it before I go crazy from lack of sleep. :-(

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Hi mommytot, welcome to the thread.   It sounds like nursing has become a prop for sleep for your DD. Are you really nursing everytime she wakes at night? Have you posted on the props board? Maybe you can get some help there on how to gently ease your DD from needing to nurse to sleep without CIO, if you can. I know we can get so desperate to choose that option, especially when we are only running on steam, with the help of coffee... he heee... How is your EASY routine? Are you nursing to sleep during the day for naps, too?

On my end, DS is down for nap #3. Had a weird day today, probably because he was OT or OS from yesterday. Went to a big outdoor dance party at the zoo... it was great fun, but not so great for the day after... But, he put himself to sleep for 2 out of the 3 naps. And get this weird twist... he was sttn the night before last (the first time in over two months)!  I woke up at 6:30 AM, wondering what the heck just happened, and not sure if my DS was still breathing. But, as it turns out, it was a fluke because last night, he went back to having 5 NWs. So, really it's obvious he CAN sttn. I just don't know what makes the difference between when he does and when he just keeps waking up.

[mommytot]

Thanks for the welcome! :-)  

About six weeks ago, DD got a cold, and was nursing more frequently in the night, so I went along with it, thinking she needed more fluids/comfort with not feeling well.  It just got worse and worse.  To the point that she wakes every 1.5-2 hours. :-(

I don't nurse her to sleep for bedtime or her naps, only when she wakes in the night.
I can't even drink coffee because I noticed the two times I did that she seemed to be affected by the caffeine.  Like I REALLY need her up more... haha!

As for our routine, it varies, but it goes something like this:

E: 7:30am bf, solids at 8 (about 3 cubes worth...)

THen we take my DS to school, and come home for her nap at 9

S: 9-10 or 10:30 (sometimes only naps for 45 min)

E: 10:30 bf, solids at 12 (3 cubes)

S: 12:30-1:30/2 (Again, sometimes might only be 45 min)

E:  1:30/2 bf

A:  1:30-3 when we leave to get my DS from school

S:  OK, this is where a slight problem comes in.  She still very much needs her third 'catnap'.  I try to get her to take it, but she fights it SO bad.  THe only way she will is if we drive around for 30 min.  This tends to make our nights a bit better, but not where they should be by any means.  So, if I can get her to nap, it's about 4-4:30 or 4:30-5

E: 4:30 nurse, solids at 5:30 (3 cubes)

A: 4:30-7/7:30/8

S: 7/7:30/8

Now, yesterday she got her 6 months shots (2 months late!), and had off naps all day, but DID nap from 4:45-5:30, then went down at 7, slept until 10 (but woke several times, just fussed and put herself back down), nursed, and slept until 7AM!!! She has never EVER done that before.  Granted, she was extra sleepy and feverish from the needles, but she CAN do it.

Tonight, however.  She napped great today!  Woke at 7, had two 1.5 hour naps appropriately spaced needing no help to fall or stay asleep, ended up having a cat nap from 5:30-6, and currently it is 8:45 and she keeps crying her head off everytime we put her down. :-(

Edited to add: she finally went down at 11:20 with plenty of crying on her crib with our hand on her back. I hope I didn't damage her trust letting her cry. :-(
But, she slept until 6:30, when I nursed her and she went back to sleep.

I totally get your question "What makes the difference between them sleeping or night waking?"  because sometimes it really seems like short of living the exact same day over and over, it's almost impossible to pinpoint any difference.
I hope that tonight is much better for you again!

[Lewa]

Hi everyone,

It must be the age, because you could be writing about my almost 8 month old DS too! 

Mommytot, you could try to extend your A time.  DS is awake about 3 hours now and he seems to nap much better for it - usually morning nap of 2 hours, afternoon nap of 1 to 1.5 hours.  We dropped the CN when he started fighting it and it was taking longer to get him to sleep then the actual nap!

I've been rocking DS to sleep for a couple weeks now as I don't want to do PU/PD during teething (apparently it doesn't work when LO's are ill).  DS has 6 teeth on their way through (4 through already in 4 weeks) but I know it is going to be a HUGE battle to get him to sleep by himself when the other two teeth are through.  Frustrating thing is he STTH from 3 months old (10 to 12 hours) until these last teeth starting coming and now wakes 3 or 4 times a night.  I now feed him about 3 or 4am as he isn't eating/drinking much due to teething pain, but I'm going to slowly reduce that amount in order to up his day intake.

Emma-Rose's mom - I know what you mean when you say active baby!  DS is always moving.  I find it easier to comfort him in his cot rather than pick him up, unless he is really screaming.  First couple of NW I just push DS onto his side and shh/pat very vigorously for a few minutes which usually works.  If he is already on his tummy I put one hand on his bum and the other hand pats his back so he stays still.

I'm interested to see if anyone else has ideas to help as our household is getting no sleep as well!

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Mommytot, I totally agree with pp with regards to A time. Although every lo is different, your lo should be able to handle a 3 hr A time by her age. DS is 7 months, and he is doing 2 naps (does catnap only on days when he has 45 minute nap intruder). Anyway, both naps should be about 1.5 - 2 hrs long, with 3 hr A time. Is your DD getting up at 7:30 to eat then is already down for first nap at 9:00? If so, she should really be able to stretch that out a bit. Might help to iron out that first nap.

Second thing that comes to mind with regards to bf at night. It might also be correlated with the amount of solids she's taking in. How long has she been eating solids? If she's eating too much solids, it takes up more room in her tummy and she doesn't get enough bm for her age. Just a thought... 3 cubes seems to me a lot, only because my DS who has a huge appetite is 7 months and does only half that amount of food, and 2 cubes for meals at the most. But, every lo is different, and DS only started solids a month ago.  I read on the internet the other day when I was combing for information that more food doesn't necessarily take care of hunger, but in fact, can have the exact opposite affect if los start waking up out of "thirst". So, I'm not sure if this applies to your situation, but just a thought for you to consider.

As for CIO, I don't think there is anything wrong with letting her cry if you are staying with her and she knows you are there. I do that often with DS, only because he is such a wiggle worm, and I'm just not strong enough to hold and comfort him when he struggles in my arms anyway. So, Lewa, I agree with you. I have to let him settle in his crib. He does tire himself out this way, then I can usually do pu/pd or rock him to sleep after he does most of the settling in his crib. Although, everyonce in a while, he puts himself to sleep w/o crying and drifts off. Now if I could only get him to do that more...

Lewa, you know I'm starting to wonder if teeth really was a factor for me, afterall. I thought that teething pains only factored in when they break through the gums, but maybe I was wrong about that. He's had sleep problems since 4 months, and last night, DS sttn again (twice this week! Yay!)   and it's been a week since both bottom teeth popped up. But, oh my, your lo seems like he's in a lot of pain. 4 teeth in 4 weeks? Yikes! But, from your post, it looks like you are doing exactly what you need to be doing. Just try to wean that night feeding a little at a time. Cross fingers that this will be over soon.

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Jane, thanks for that bit of info. 3rd day in the row, DS sttn.  He did a 10 hour stretch from 7:15 - 5:15. Okay, so he had an EW, but I'll take that over 6 NWs, right? So, maybe you were right. It was teeth moving under gums for the past 2.5 months causing such a problem. But, oh man, those teeth keep coming once they start, right? So more sleepless nights in my future, again, I'm afraid. But, crossing fingers that he keeps sttn until round 2.

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Oh boy. Had an entire week of DS sttn and was getting spoiled. Yesterday, he started drooling like crazy again, and bam! Last night, went back to 5 NWs. Should be a fun ride. Jane, I tried the teething powder and teething tablets the entire time first round, and it didn't work for him. He still had the NWs. A friend of mine told me to have him chew on green onions, which acts as natural anesthesia. Who knows? Maybe it will work.