15 month old ... lost trust... OT loop

[~Sarah~]

Im guessing I try for a nap at about 3:30pm?

That's what I would do.  I was having luck if I did nap #2 at about 2-2.5hrs.
Honestly, it was like he flipped a switch.  I got him off the OT loop, had a week of 2 weird naps, and then this week boom! 1 x 2-3 hr nap every day.  In fact I am geting a little nervous, Ryan has been asleep for almost 4 hrs, so I am preparing to wake him.  I know he needs it- I am pretty sure he is growing and teething, so any sleep he gets I take!

DD1 was a pacifier kid and I also put a handful of pacifiers in her bed every night.    She was a much better sleeper IMO, because of the pacifier.     Marlow won't take a pacifier.

This is me now with Elise-I can't get her to take a paci or bottle!!  I REALLY pushed paci as she has reflux too and it helped Ry so much, but she won't have it.  It also makes it hard to settle the screaming when she gets OT.  Ry used to just take the paci and melt into my arms like "thank god my old friend is here!"

I think I hear a baby--Good Luck I hope she gets some sleep and you get some relief!!

[marlowsmom]

No luck with the second nap so off to bed ASAP.   It's 6:30pm and she's still eating.   She is the slowest eater.    I think paint dries faster than this kid eats.

[~Sarah~]

That really stinks!!  Ryan is pretty slow too.  I know there were a few days when dinner started at 4 so we would be done and in bed early enough.  I knew he would be waking for a bottle, so I would just give him as much "heavy" carb stuff as I could so it would last in his tummy longer and I also avoided giving him too much fruit or veggie as we were having trouble with poo in the middle of the night.

I really hope things come together for you-I KNOW how maddening this is!

[katie80]

Sharon,
You've gotten a lot of great advice on here.  The 2-1 was tough for my DD as well, especially early on!

Here's what I've noticed.  I do think she's clingy because she's really tired, just as calebsmummy has said.  My DD acts the same and did especially at the beginning of 2-1.  Also, especially after today, I think the long am isn't working for you either, like henry1 mentioned.  Unless you are able to force that pm catnap to happen, like in the stroller or in the car, I think it's going to be hard to get it to work, because she keeps refusing it.  So, after today's nap, I think you really would have to do a quite early dinner and bedtime at about 6 pm.  It does sound scary, just like Mommy Mertel has said, and I was anxious to do it too, but the first time I did was right around 15 mo and my DD slept almost 13 hrs.  It really helps get out of and prevent OT.

The other option is to obviously do the short am, long pm.  I fought this for the longest time, because just like you I could never figure out when to put my DD down for the second nap as her cues were very unreliable after a CN.  So, I kind of had to work it by trial and error (not really my cup of tea, but worth it in the end).  I knew if I put her down early she would most likely roll around and then fall asleep close to the right time for her.  But if it was too late, she would throw an OT fit.  So, after a couple days of putting her down a little early, I was able to find the right time.  This was, and really still is, the best way to get out of an EW or OT for my DD.  She sleeps much better at night after a longer PM nap.

I think today you probably put her down significantly early.  What was her latest consistent morning A?  I might try around 3.5 hr A in the morning followed by a 20 min CN.  Then go for about 2.5 hr A after and see what happens.  She may go straight down and then you'll know, or she may play around for a bit and then fall asleep.  After a couple days you should pretty much be able to guage the right time.

I really hope something in here helps.  It is a hard time, I remember it well.  Lots of hugs!

[*Jo*]

Sharon, honey, whatever you do decide to do remember to stick with it for a couple of days, if you go and change on her every other day then you wont see the real results. I went back and forth between the long AM/ short AM route for weeks and didnt give Caleb a chance to really "get" it and that created an OT issue in itself.
We are here for you, wish you lived closed, i could pop over and help you out!

[katie80]

Really good point by Jo! 

[marlowsmom]

Her most recent consistant morning A was about 3 to 3.5 hours.   As a general rule she in bed by 930am for her short nap.   She was up by 10amish and down by 1230-1pm.

Jo- Good point for me to remember.   Thanks.

She was in bed by 730pm (and we rushed to get there) but it took her 45 min to fall asleep.  She wouldn't be still.  I hate seeing her like this.   I don't think she has ever been this OT.    

So this morning, she woke up at 7 and by 9am she was playing and then would just lay down for a few seconds.  So after 2 hour A,  I took her upstairs and she was calm at first but within a few mintues she started doing the OT squirm in my arms, bouncing her leg, pulling my hair, and rubbing her eyes.    She seemd tired to me.   It took me 2 hr 15 min to get her to sleep.   Bedtime it takes me 40 min to get her to sleep after a 6 hour A.   What's that all about?   Am I totally reading her OT signs wrong?   As I wonder that, I also remember that I gave her a 5 hr A yesterday morning and it took me 2 hours to get her to sleep.   I didn't even get her to sleep; my MIL did.    How long should I try to get her to sleep until I give up?    Should I give up?      I'm guess I'm questioning if I'm doing the right thing.

Thanks for all your support and advice.   It's comforting to bounce ideas and vent with others about this since DH doesn't understand rule #1 about BW.

[janecharlotte]

Hey,

With my DD I have stopped watching for tired signs as my main cue as she was doing similar things to yours. It sounds like she can definitely handle a longer A time, if she fights it that much. It does sound like you need to find a time somewhere between 2A and 5A and stick with it for a few days and see if it is easier to get her to sleep. 6A is probably too long too (confusing isn't it). My DD who is of a similar age to yours does about 5-6 A but she has been one one sleep for a couple of months.

Good luck, we have been on a rollercoaster for the last few weeks. Can't wait for things to get back to some kind of normal.

[marlowsmom]

Well one minor bit of good news, she STTN.   She slept from 830 to 645am.     She hasn't had two naps in one day in over a week.  Every day has been a one nap day.   I think at this point I just need to bite the bullet and put her on one nap and quit struggling with two naps.     She had one nap yesterday waking at 12:45 and handled the resulting A time well.    She's always handled the afternoon A time well.    Anyway that seems to be the direction she's taking us.    So her last longest A that she was able to handle, if she did a long A, was 5 hours.     That's a nap time of 11:45pm today.     Opinion?

[*Jo*]

we are having similar issues here too, Caleb was up for hte day at 5.45am! i took him for a stroll in the pram at 10.15am because he was doing the whole fighting me issue and i knew he wouldnt go to sleep easily, the stroller walk seemed to really calm him and we got back at 10.35, i put him straight to bed and he slept 1 hour 50mins, woke up at 12.30 then we had bedtime at 7pm as per usual. this is really early for him but watching his tired cues and also knowing what he can handle helps. I think maybe you can try a similar thing? doing both watching tired cues, but more around the A times she can handle rather than as early as 2 hours. I think go for the 11.45 naptime, maybe a little less if shes starting to lose it though

[marlowsmom]

Well as hot and humid as it is here a walk does wear her out.   I may try that later.

[katie80]

I think at this point I just need to bite the bullet and put her on one nap and quit struggling with two naps.   

I think everyone gets to this point!  Trying to figure out two naps gets really frustrating.  It sounds like you have a good plan with the 5 hr A.  It might be worth it to stick with it for awhile and see if she will lengthen the nap out.  If I were you, though, I'd try to get her in bed earlier if possible (like 6:30 - 7 pm) if you're going to stick with the one nap, because those long afternoon As can really start to build into the OT.  And she may settle for bed quicker with an earlier time.

If you notice that she starts waking earlier and earlier and feel more OT settling in, then I'd go for a 2 nap day every once in a while just to  prevent going over the edge.  But, go back to your previous A of 3 to 3.5 hr.  I know she looks tired much earlier, but if she can do a 1.5 hr nap on 5 hr A, then surely you can stretch her past 2 hr in the morning.  It's tough because it sounds like she acts much the same whether she's OT or UT, so I'd try to just be as consistent as possible.

How did nap time go today?

[marlowsmom]

At 11am she started rubbing her eyes so we made the trip upstairs for a nice wind down.    We read about 5 or 6 books, I offered her some more milk and she passed on it so I started with getting her to settle.     If she's OT she does this bouncy move in my arms which she started doing.    I put her in the crib, told her night night, and left.   She cried for a minute, then just sat in the crib and did some general fussing.    She wouldn't lay down.   After about 10 min, she started really crying so I went in.   I held her, offered her some milk and she passed out on the bottle.   Whatever.   She's was asleep.    I felt victorious for getting her down in under 30 min.    I covered her up with a blanket.   That was a mistake.    She woke up 40 min later and her head was all sweaty.   
Now she's up after a 40 min nap.   I'm guessing I'll try to put her down in two hours.

Well, it seems that my test run of 4hr15min was a bit too much for this morning A.     That was her A time before I got her into her room.    After I got her in the room there was another hour from the time we started wind down to actually falling asleep.

[*Jo*]

how did hte rest of hte day go?

ok so we know at the moment that 4 hours 15 mins is too much for her, so lets start dropping it in 15min lots to see what happens, tomorrow aim for 4 hours A time, thats still a reasonable A time for her age. also I wouldnt put her down after two hours, but rather 2.5/3, we found that under 1 year old Calebs A time following a short nap was 2 hours but then it went up to 3 hours, no matter how short the previous nap was, whether 10mins long or 40mins long (it was rather annoying!)

[marlowsmom]

Well I tried to put her down after 2.5 hours.   She was tired but wouldn't go down.    I tried for an hour.    Singing, rocking, standing still, trying to calm her in the crib but nothing was working.    That's been the case lately too.   She is resistant to almost all APOP it seems.     We had promised my 4 year old that we would take her to see Toy Story 3 tonight.    My MIL came over and watched Marlow.    I asked her to feed her at 530pm and get her to bed ASAP.    She said she had her in bed by 645pm and Marlow didn't put up a fight.      I'm expecting an early wake up; I'm guessing 5am.   She's a early to bed, early to rise kind of baby.   If so, I'm going to give her a bottle and try to put her back down.

I was thinking of her last A time that she was able to handle for the morning A was 3.5 hours.    She would do about 20 min, then 3.5 (I think) A, then long PM nap.   Then I started having PM nap refusal and here we are.

Update: She woke at 3am, bottle, lots of rocking, and back in the crib asleep by 4am.    She woke at 520am and was not going back down.    She wanted out of my lap too.   I put her down and she pooped.    I cleaned her up and tried again to get her back to sleep but she wanted out.  

Update 2: Back in bed by 9am with meds after a 5:20am wake up.    After 15 min she isn't crying but she is talking and not sleeping.   

Update 3: Went in and checked her b/c I thought that she might have pooped some more.   She smelled like it but had not, so more bottle a bit of rocking then back to bed.   The rocking wasn't working.    It took about 20 minutes more for her to fall asleep by herself (yeah!!) without crying (double yeah)!!    She was asleep by 10:10am.     That's almost 5 hour A.   Now I'm torn if I let her sleep or wake her for a short nap.    I'm thinking that she had kind of a rough night and since it took her over an hour to fall asleep that I should just let her sleep.    Besides I have Alila that is singing with some kids at church today and then a church picnic.   UGH.    I don't care to go to the picnic but I need to go.

Thanks IKatie, Jo, Jane, and Mommy Mertel (I don't know your name) for helping.   I really appreciate it.