Need help lengthening out day, currently 4:30 a.m.-5 p.m.

[Tao]

Score! She WAS UT at bed! So today went like this:

5 a.m. Wake (wake up is getting a bit earlier each day it seems, but hopefully this later bedtime will give me a better wake up.)

11:00-12:40 Nap (she woke at the 45 minute mark and I thought, Oh no, but then she went back to bed on her own and slept for another hour!!)

6:40 BT (instead of putting her down for bed at 5 hours and 30 minutes A, I pushed it 30 minutes more and she went to sleep instantly).

I think you Ladies hit it on the nose that UT=standing and fighting bed. If she's really tired enough she'll just go straight to sleep. Katie, I think the 11:00 set nap time sounds good until she starts waking later, consistently. She seems to do well with an 11:00 nap. Quick question: What do you do if they dont give you a decent nap, such as a 50 minute nap or something where you know 6 hours of A time after that will create OTness..

Honestly, lately if it's anything less than 1:15 which we've had lately a few days ago, DH will go in and hold her to see if she'll sleep a bit longer, which I know is a bad habit. I will try to leave her to it a bit longer to train her to just go back on her own; however, I've noticed that if she doesn't go back on her own within 20 mins and she starts standing then usually it's a no go. It's hard because I don't want to create a bad habit but at the same time, I need her to sleep long enough to make it to the later BT so the cycle of morning wake ups doesn't start again...

Any ideers?
Thanks Ladies! You always know what to do!

[alohahellokitty]

Oh great!! Yes Sophie is at the age where she will sleep when she's tired and fight it or short nap if she's not.

Its great she's going right down. That means she's actually tired enough to rest. GREAT.

So todays nap is the perfect example of Sophie being tired enough to go back to sleep when she cycles through sleep cycles. She does this at night when she's tired as well. So she'll be able to do it at naps if she is in fact tired enough to go back to sleep. I'm guessing the APOP you've been doing after naps she just dozes in and out but is more than happy to rest there with you, but not actually tired enough to get full sleep in the crib. So the best way I know how to get good naps out of tots this age is to ensure they are tired enough to get a good replenishing nap.

If she still got a short nap even though she was plenty tired, I would still stretch her a bit at bt. I would not continue giving these early bt's. This is simply going to train her body clock to go to bed early and wake early. Her doing more A in the evening here and there isn't going to create terrible OT'ness. I think you'll be surprised at how she will do (if she isn't teething/ill). Her body clock needs to be changed before it gets very set for good. And the only way to do that is to do later bt's. I would slowly stretch her and avoid early bt's unless it is a true disaster. Give her the opportunity to stretch out a bit. If you see her getting super hyperactive (more than just crazy silly toddler behavior) having a complete meltdown and exhausted then go ahead and do a earlier bt when she needs it. But I would avoid it when she's happy and content, stretch her out a bit. Teething and illness is a whole other story though.

Just think of it as letting her fully wear herself out in between wake and nap/ nap and bt. If she's fully tired she'll take a good nap, if not she's going to short nap it. And same with bt, she'll fight you.

Are you seeing any cues as you're stretching her? Any fussiness that isn't resolved by a bfing, snack, drink, change of activities? Eye rubbing, red around the eyes, general slowing down exc....... This is the best way to gauge how long she can go in between rest periods.

I would use the clock a little bit to know *about* where she might be getting tired but go with her cues. She fusses then distract her with: bf, snack, drink, new activity, another new activity exc... When you can tell she's tired (and its close to the A time you know she'll nap good at) then do a nap/bt.

If it were me, tomorrow I'd tack another 10 min's on to the time I start to *watch* (A time) for her cues. If you can tell she's ready around just 5 extra min's or 0 extra min's then that's okay. But I think you will be very surprised by her, just give her the chance to stretch out a bit.

She's doing so good already!!!!

[alohahellokitty]

One more thing Christine. With the set nap........ B/C you are not trying to solidify a 2-1 nap transition, you are trying to move your day back further I would (Katie/Wendy what do you think?) move the nap back if she happens to wake 30-60 min's or so later. Now if you were doing a 2-1 switch I would keep that time set in stone. But you aren't, you are trying to move her day back further to get a later wakeup. So I would adjust the time you start to *watch* her accordingly. Same with bt.

Good luck!! Tomorrow will be a great new day.

[Tao]

Hi Liana,

You have given me such great advice!!! Last night I put her down at 6:40 and while she woke at 5 a.m. because I think her clock is set that way right now (early wake ups), she went back to sleep! It's now 5:45 and she's still sleeping! I will watch her today and still give her the 6 hours A that I gave her yesterday morning, and just watch her like you said.

Actually, yesterday, I took her to my classroom while I was getting things ready for the school year and she was really fussy even when I changed activities but it was weird because it was only after 4 hours A, so I ignored it thinking that she was itchy because she kept scratching all over--maybe from all the dust. I stretched her out two more hours and she had a longer nap.

It's odd, I'm learning so much because I'm realizing that when they are babies they have different sleep personalities than when they become toddlers. It made so much sense to me when you told met that yesterday she was tired enough to get through sleep cycles. This whole time I kept thinking, shorter nap (50 minutes) must be OT because that's what it meant when she was a baby, but it makes perfect sense that she's not tired enough to keep sleeping, which is why she stands afterwards and just cries and wants me to get her right away. Also, this was so true last night. Not only did she go down right away, she didn't wake up very much whining. She slept straight through without any noises!

This is sooo helpful! Okay, it's 5:45 and she's up now. On these days, I find it's a teenie bit tricky because I don't know what real "wake up time" to count. SHe was up at 5, then at 5:20 or so went back to sleep until 5:45. So do I count 5 or 5:45?

Thanks!!! Have a great day!

[alohahellokitty]

I would go with 5:45 and watch cues

[katie80]

I would probably split the difference and go with 5:30 am, but Liana's right, keep looking for those cues.

After I've thought about this more, and seeing what happened yesterday, I agree with Liana about not setting the time in stone.  It seems like the 6 hrs A in the morning, and then maybe 5 hrs A in the afternoon (or as long as you feel you can push it) is going to be the way to go to get that later bed time and later wake up.  (Keeping those cues in mind, of course.   )Then, when she starts getting close to where you want it, you can 'set' nap time there and have her even out accordingly.  Does that make sense?

It's great that she fell back to sleep this morning!  Sounds like good progress!

In terms of a busted nap, I still might do a somewhat early bedtime, but not before 6 pm.  I just wouldn't want to slide too far into an OT loop, but it seems like Sophie's been handling it pretty well.  And, looking at your ultimate goal of pushing your day back, I don't think the APOP that your DH is doing will cause a major problem.  You're giving her the time to fall back to sleep on her own (Claire won't do it if she's been up for 20 min either); it's not like he's going right back in and not giving her the chance to do it, iykwim?

Hope the day goes well!

[alohahellokitty]

Yes Katie is soooooooooooooooooo right!! Just keep moving the day back (based upon her wake up letting you move back and a little stretching her as well) until you get your day where you'd like it and then do that 'set' nap. That's perfect.

How did yesterday go?

[Tweakster]

Sounds like things are getting on track!  I think the girls are giving you fab advice here :-)

[alohahellokitty]

Oh Christine, I wanted to tell you the wake up and then putting her self back down was because she was tired enough (later bt) to actually go back to sleep (like with naps).

She can only sleep a certain amount of time in a 24 hour period. So you have to realize that and figure out where you want it at. If you want your early evenings then put her down early, but she's going to wake up earlier. If you want a sleep in, you will have to move her day out and put her to bed later. When she wakes a bit early she'll put her self back to sleep if she needs it (like a later bedtime, so she's still tired).

Yes when they change from babies to toddlers their sleep is VERY different. And what used to be OT is now UT sometimes... That's when the cue watching comes in. Sometimes the cues mean bordom or something else entirely. That's why I say to watch cues but also see where you are time wise to help you figure out what it is. Like yesterday she was fussy a few hours too early, that wasn't tired (you looked at the clock and it had only been 4 hrs so you know that it wasn't tired) she was probably itchy or bored. And I think as you begin gently stretching her out a bit (adding 10 min's or so before her nap and bt) you will begin to see real cues.

I think your doing great and I'm excited to hear how its going.

[Tao]

Hello Ladies,

Yesterday went so well. Here's what happened:

545 Real Wake up
11:30-12:45 Nap (I gave her 5:45 A time again. Didn't really see sleepy cues but that seems to be her "time" right now)
6:30 BT (she stood and wailed twice but then lay down and passed out right away. What I'm noticing too is that when she's TIRED enough to go to sleep she really doesn't wake at night. This totally goes against what I thought this whole time. When she was a baby I always thought OT would cause horrible NWs and such but I'm noticing these past few days since I've stretched out p.m. A time, that I don't hear her whining at all in the middle of the night as opposed to earlier BT's.)

AND....to make things even more wonderful:

Today:
615 Wake! (She didn't even wake at 5 like she usually does, she just slept straight until 6:15!!! So nice! So I put her down for a later nap)

12:00 Just put her down for nap and went down instantly. Again no cues, was playing happily but I asked her do you want to go night night now and she nodded her head. So, I put her down. Depending on how she sleeps (long nap) I hope, I may be able to push her BT until 7 p.m.!

Liana--I'm realizing how much sense this makes about how she only needs X amount of sleep during the day and it just depends whether she gets it at night or during the day. I'm also realizing that she really needs a lot less sleep than I thought. Usually she'll do an 11 hour night and then maybe 1-1.5 hour nap so really only 12 hours or so of sleep. Does this seem right at this age? I guess there is no right or wrong...every baby is just different.

I'm excited and looking forward to set naps once we get her doing more consistent 6 a.m. wake ups. I feel so much better having a normal night sleep too! Thanks Ladies!

[katie80]

Wow!  Really great update, Christine!!!  6:15 am!!!  She's responding so well!  

Did you sleep that late too?  LOL, I never do when I'm *waiting* for DD to wake.  

[Tweakster]

Yeah it's the worst when their out of whack body clock starts to set your body clock too!

I'm also realizing that she really needs a lot less sleep than I thought. Usually she'll do an 11 hour night and then maybe 1-1.5 hour nap so really only 12 hours or so of sleep. Does this seem right at this age? I guess there is no right or wrong...every baby is just different.

Finn does max 13 hours on a good day. He's always between 12-13 and no more.  Whether it's 'right' or not, it's what he'll do :-)  You have to work with the baby you have.  Also, try logging her sleep over a 2 week period, you really see how much they self-regulate at this age.

[alohahellokitty]

OMG Christine!! I'm soooo thrilled for you!!!!!

Yes Sophie can only sleep so many hours and it seems 12-12.5 is what she needs right now. (illness and teething might make it more) So now that you know that its much better.

These toddlers are TOTALLY different from babies in the sleep department. They sleep (actually pass out some times LOL!) when tired and play or fight going down when UT. Or they short nap/wake super early in the am b/c they've filled their sleep bucket for the night.

I have to look at Anna-Li and Jace's sleep soooooooooo differently! With Anna, my goal is for her to wake in the morn (its been 7:45 most days this week........... SOOOOOOOOOO nice!!!) and wear her self out until its nap time (We do set time at noon or 12:30 with a late wake up... we could do later but she goes to nursery/preschool two days a week and I want to keep her clock consistent) Then when she wakes I just let her wear herself out again until she's good and ready for bed. (typically 7-7:30 but can be as late as 8pm if we have a low activity day or she's just going strong) Most days she only gives me a hour or so nap. But she sleeps all the way through the night (unless ill) every single night and is pleasant in the morn. NOW if I let Jace (baby) wear himself out and pay no attention to A time he'd be BESIDE himself, with constant NW'ings and EW'ings! It would be terrible. They are so different (toddler vs baby sleep)

Its WONDERFUL that she lets you know when she's ready for bed. Anna does this as well. Its super great since she's not giving cue's at the moment. I'd rely on her when you start nearing the A time you know she's been good at, just keep asking her. That's just what you want. She knows when she's tired and needs a restie! Let her tell you! When Anna starts looking tired and we are near nap time I ask her if she's ready for nap and 9X out of 10 she will say yes. But if she doesn't then I tell her in X amount of time (5-15 min's) we will be going to nap. Also with bedtime, when she looks/acts tired I ask her if she's ready for her milk. Again she almost always wants it and knows that means bedtime. If not I also give her X amount of time before we go to bed.

As she's waking later in the am, move her nap and bedtime out further until you are getting the wake up you want. I've moved Anna back a bit once I had Jace. I just needed more time in the morn to bf and get around before she needed me. So do what works for you. Also if you want a wee bit more time with her after work (once you get back) then just set her clock now for what you'd like. You might even like a 8pm bt with a 7am wake. That's ideal for a lot of working parents so you are able to spend a bit more time in the evenings with them, if that doesn't work for her you can always do a 7:30 bt... but if she's open to it (as she tolerates moving her day back) go for it if that's what you'd like.

I also wouldn't set your nap until you are getting the bt/wake up you are wanting. Just keep moving backwards first. Then when you are at your ideal set it and your DONE!!! You and DH can both enjoy a sleep in EVERY morning.

Oh one more thing, also give her a bit of time after wake up and naps to go back down. I never leave Anna to scream/cry or get angry. But once I started giving her time in the morn/after naps she would sing and play and soemtimes go back down again. Now she plays VERY happily in her crib for up to a hour (which is a God send to me now that I have 2) and once she starts screaming 'mama mama out, down, stuck, help, poopy diaper' (all the words she can think of to get out) I go to her right away. You'll know when she's over it and just go to her telling her of the great job she did.

Your beautiful Sophie is growing up mama!!

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

A great day today!

6:15 Wake
12-140 Nap (went down instantly and quietly!)
700 BT (went down instantly and quietly!)

I'm now realizing too that she doesn't need THAT much A time before bed. I was giving her 6 hours before but it looks like even 5.5 and she's tired enough. The "taking to her" really makes a difference. I tell her "Sophie and bearbear are going to sleep now okay? I love you and will see you in the morning." It's so cute she nods so vigorously as if to say, "yes momma. I know"... I just feel like squishing her when she communicates with me. It's so cute.

So, tomorrow I'm off to my MIL (4 hour drive). Based on your great advice. I've equipped and ready to go. HOpefully all turns out well. I"ve got my white noise machine, all her fav books toys, her bear bear, a new toy to play in the car, a bunch of DVD's to keep her busy and lots of watermelon (her favorite food.) I even was as crazy as to go out and buy the same black-out drapes that she has in her bedroom to put on top of my MIL's curtains so as to create more familiarity. I'm going to try my best to put her down for her BT and hope that with all WD and things the same, she won't put up a fight since she will be sleeping in her travel crib for the first time since she was 6 months old. I even brought the same blankets to put around the crib as she has in her real crib...But, I've talked to myself and reminded myself that if she doesn't nap, it's okay, I'll do what Anna-Li did and just once she is completely exhausted, will just nurse her to sleep and put her down. It's only 3 days.

My DH thinks I"m crazy for stressing so much. In fact I think I'm crazy for stressing so much =). I'm sure it will go better than I think. Things are going so great now, I just don't want it to mess things up but I will go back to our routine when we return on Monday.

Wish me luck Ladies =).

[katie80]

Another great day!!  Woo-Hoo!!  That is so cool!  Way to go on reading her bedtime cues.  That routine looks fab!   

Hope the trip goes well, Christine!!  It sounds like you have a great plan!  I think if you do everything the same and keep talking to her, she might surprise you and just do it!  We all know she can sleep now and sleep well!  Expect it from her!