Need help lengthening out day, currently 4:30 a.m.-5 p.m.

[Tao]

Hello Ladies,

With the help of the wonderful Wendy, Alohakitty and Katie80, I realized that my 15 month old was ready to go from 2 naps to 1 so I made the switch cold turkey as she wouldn't take a second nap in her crib or in the car. We have been doing 1 nap for about a 3 weeks now and we have not had any NWings, which I think means we are so far so good on the OT front.

In the beginning, she would have very short naps, 30 minutes-50 minutes and she would refuse a second nap, so I had her make up for it by going to bed super early at 5 p.m. and she would sleep 11.5 hours or so, without waking in the middle of the night except for the occasional rolling around. Her nap finally stretched out for 1 hour to 1.25 minutes which was working nicely. I noticed that if I gave her more A time in the morning, she would stretch her nap to 1.25. This is what our schedule looked like, roughly:

4:30/4:45 Wake (very hard for mommy. I leave her in her bed until 5:30 a.m. when she really starts screaming but she doesn't ever go back to sleep except for a few minutes here and there.)
10:10-11:35 (on a good day. Sometimes naps are an hour or 1:15)
5:00 BT

Here's where I need some help please:

1) For two days she started refusing going down again for her first nap time. I don't know if this means more A time or OT starting...

Day 1:
4:30 Wake
10:00 Tried to put for nap. Finally went down at 11:30-12:30
5:00 BT

Day 2:
4:20 Wake
10:00 Tried putting down. Went down for 10 minutes, then woke up because lovey was covering her face and then couldn't go back down. DH went in and held her APOP and slept  for 2 hours until 12:30!
5:00 BT

Today:
4:20 Wake
10:00 Went down right away which was nice, but then woke after 30 minutes. Went in to APOP again because I knew 30 was not enough. Held her and she slept for another hour until 12:30
6:00 Tonight I want to try putting her down for bed later since she woke later. I want to put her down at 6 to see if it lengthens a.m. wake time.

* I'm not sure if she's OT for first nap or if she's fighting it/short napping because I need to up her A. SHe had a recent surge in A time which is what makes me wonder if this is the case. A few weeks ago she was refusing her naps for an entire week until I upped A time drastically.

* How do I stretch her day out. This waking at 4:30 a.m. business is not working for us. Even though I don't get her until 5:30, I can't go back to sleep once I hear her whining and moaning for the hour. Should I just try to put her down later in the morning so I can at least make it to 6 p.m. BT

* I was a bit hesitant to go in after short nap and APOP. The nice thing is that she will sleep on me, but will this become a habit to where her body thinks, "okay i short nap, and then mommy holds me for remainder of the nap..." I'm trying to go for nap lengthening eventually to 2 hours, which would be heavenly.

Thanks for helping us sleep in just a little bit more. Mommy and daddy have been walking around like Zombies lately.

Fondly,
Christine

[alohahellokitty]

Hi Christine,

I'm soooooooooo glad to hear she's doing great with her 1 nap.

I'm wondering if she's not quite tired enough to sleep longer for this nap. Since she's waking up after just a little bit. But then she's sleeping when you apop her so I'm not for sure.

What's she telling you? Is she happy and content during her A time? If so I would give her a little more. She might be needing it.

I remember before she was fighting the 1st nap b/c she wasn't tired enough. Do you think she's not quite worn out enough to get a proper rest?

I would try to put her down later so you can stretch her bt to 6pm. Do you think she'd be okay doing a 10:30 nap? Just keep her activities as low as possible. Then if she responds well to that I would just add 10 min's a day or so (depending on how she's adjusting) to her nap time and her bt. Then you can eventually push nap to noon and bt to 7 or 7:30 granting you a 6:30-7pm-ish wake up. With touchy babes you have to be careful about pushing too fast. So if it seems like its too much of a stretch then hold off for a few days before you add another 10 min's.

Good luck!!!!!!!!

[Tao]

Hi Liana,

How have you been? It seems odd but I"ve missed chatting with you =). I hope your adorable ones are doing well. You know, she seems to be fussy all the time; although I can't tell if it's teething or just itching because she is so itchy lately all the time. We are taking her into the ped tomorrow to see what's going on. It'll be on and off, she will fuss and play, fuss and play.

I'm thinking maybe the APOP is working because when she first wakes up from her short nap, I don't go in right away. Like today, she went down at 10, woke at 10:30 and I waited until 11 to see if she would go back down on her own. She's expected to go down initially on her own but hasn't got it to where she can go BACK down on her own yet. So by 11 she was really frantic so I went in and APOP, so by then it was 11:20 when she finally went down on me and she slept long, so I'm thinking maybe by the time I APOP, she's really tired enough by then? Not sure. The odd thing is when I was in the room with her, it seems like if I left her to it, she could've slept for forever because there were instances where she would wake a bit, and then go back down, then wake and then go back down. So, she was laying on me the whole time. Unlike her bed, where she wakes, she pops up right away and is ready to come out. (I still need to work on getting her comfortable in there).

Tonight I put her down at 6. She seemed to go down well, after 10 minutes. Hopefully this will lead to a more normal wake up time in the morning so I can push her out to 10:30 like you said. That way, if she can at least sleep till 12, I can maybe shoot for 6 p.m. bed time again and see what happens. I've been really lucky that she hasn't had any NWs through all this...I think that would have thrown me off....

Thanks Liana, it's great to see you again...I think if I start missing our conversations, I will have to start posting random things every so often just so we can chat again...haha.

Hope all is well!

[alohahellokitty]

ha ha ha Ya I know, us and Katie really had a long chat going during your last few posts.

I'm just wondering if your getting ut naps. Are 30 min's naps usually ut for her?

The fussing on and off might be attributed to her eczema. Anna-Li has it as well. Most kids who have eczema also have different sorts of allergies as well (food/environmental).

Here's a list of things I do for her:
All free (no dyes or fragrances) detergent
downy free (again no dyes or fragrances) fabric softner
I use NO soap on her! Only cetaphil gentle cleaner (NO bubble bath either, nothing but water)
I use a special cream from my dr on all her areas and I have a RX one if it gets bad
I got a air purifier her ped recommended that does NOT omit ozones
I changed my vacuum cleaner
I give benadryl if her itching is bad (especially if she cant' sleep during nap/night time) but can't give very often or it will send her into a asthma attack
I just started her in singulair which helps not only with the allergies/eczema but also her asthma
I do my best not to let her get too hot as that really makes her get VERY itchy and inflames her
I also give a homeopathic medication for eczema called: loma lux eczema, there's a RX strength and she goes on that when she gets really bad
I do my best to keep her skin from drying out as well (use a really good thick non-irritating cream twice a day)
I put a humidifier in her room, especially in the winter to avoid her skin getting really dry from the heater
I avoid pools or anything with chemicals, we do a blow up pool for her in our yard

If I think of anything else I'll pass it along. I'm sure most of this your dermatologist has already told you. (my Dad is a dermatologist so he's always treating DD........ I'm very lucky!)

I bet if she's not ill or teething you can start pushing her day out and start getting later wake ups.

I'm glad to hear your just letting her be in the morn and not going to her until later. I KNOW its so hard to go back to sleep though after you hear them wake up. Whomever wakes first is my alarm clock and I can't get back down. Jace wakes around 5am to play for a few minuets and then sleeps till after 7am most days. But I'm up b/c I don't have a paci to suck to fall back asleep! LOL Anna is doing pretty good. She's teething a new cannine. So we are in OTville again. She did sleep till 7:45am this morn so I was very happy! As I've already told you I do a pretty set time for her nap and bt is flexible. At the moment she's napping around noon (I keep this near noon b/c of nursery two days a week) and then if not exhausted she goes down around 7-7:30pm but if very tired I go earlier. And she's been sleeping until 7am most days and playing (if not teething) for another 20-30 min's before demanding to get out. Oh quick funny story, we've been having to tape her diaper on (just over the two fasteners) with packing tape or duct tape for her naps and bt's. She gets bored in the mornings or after her naps and completely de-robes herself and removers her diaper then runs about the crib! (we had one morning with a dirty diaper, that';s when DH decided to start duct taping the fasteners down. LOL!!) See what you have to look forward too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tao]

Hi Liana,

You made me laugh so hard, I almost peed. I think I may need a diaper. I LOVE the fact that she completely disrobes. I can see how cute that would look in a video monitor. =)

7:45 a.m. waking...WOW! I'm so jealous! I would be happy if i could just "SLEEP IN" until 5 a.m. these days. I was wondering, once you enforced your "you must nap" rule (which I LOVE by the way)...did she ever go back to crying and trying to fight her naps? If so, did that indicate to you that the timing wasn't right, or that you had to tweak her nap time? It's so hard to figure out whether she is OT or UT. Some days she'll rub her eyes and look tired but then you put her down and she fights it (like during that phase that you helped me to get out of). It's SOOOO hard to read her. Other days, she's playful and shows NO signs but then I can tell she's OT because after BT, she's constantly waking and rolling around/whining.

Tonight I put her down at 6. I noticed that between 4.5-5 hours of A until BT is just right. She'll sleep and roll around but not really wake up that much. When I try to push it, like tonight, I pushed it to 5.5 hours of A before BT and she's waking quite a bit and whining for a few minutes but going back down. However, I feel like it's going ot have to be like this in order for me to push out her day and get better wake up times in the morning. Hopefully this doesn't backfire.

Do you know if she wakes and whines, rolls around for under 10 minutes, but doesn't really cry and I don't have to go in, if that counts as a NWing? Because I've always read that the beginning of OT causes NWings, but I'm wondering now if she IS having NWings.. I've never had to go in since her 1 nap transition.

Also, you are so lucky to have a dermatologist dad. Thank you for the list of ideas! Sophie's eczema is so bad. It always flares up and when I got rid of all detergents, it did really help. Then we started going to the park and taking swimming lessons and it all started again. I'm trying to calm it down again. I hate that I have to put hydrocortisone on her skin becuase I know it's not best for her, but it seems to be the only thing that helps really with calming inflammation. Thanks for sharing about Singulair. Our ped just recommended that she take it and I was a bit hesitant because I don't like putting her on continuous medication if I dont' have to, but if it really helps I think it's worth a try. Odd thing is, some days she's scratching like crazy but there is NOTHING there. Her skin isn't red or inflammed. I dont' see anything.. So odd..

Okay, I'll stop blabbing away now. Thanks for everything!

[alohahellokitty]

Yes I know what you mean about putting them on a constant med. I HATED doing it but our ped said that she might be able to go on and off it we will just have to wait and see. Also I've noticed it has improved the quality of her life so I'm a little more okay with her being on it. and we basically HAVE to b/c lots of benadryl is not a option.

It is normal for them to still be itchy without any patches or inflammation. Poor Sophie!! There's a great cream I use on Anna its called 'medical barrier cream' or 'extreme barrier cream' I'm sure you can find it there in cali. I get it from my Dad but I'm sure you can get it other places also. I know its pretty much all over the world. I use this on her once a day in the summer (whole body) and twice a day in the winter. Since I've been using it daily its been a great preventative. We really have to prevent with Anna b/c we can't use benadryl but once a week or so (b/c of asthma).

Do you think you could get her into a derm specialist so you could see if there's a way to aleviate that itch completely? That might help her out with the fussiness and also the sleep department.

Now Anna doesn't fight her naps b/c I make sure she's REALLY tired and ready to go down. I go over and over with her about 10 min's out from the nap what we will be doing.

I'm not quite sure what does and doesn't count as a nw'ing. hmmmmmmmmm. Good question. I think we need more eyes on this to help out.

We do typically still have nw'ings. We don't have to go in to her. (unless teething for meds) She just sings and plays with her animals for a bit and then goes back down. To be honest I'm not sure if its ot or ut. We go through periods of no nw'ings then we start getting them again. She sleeps generally until 6:30 or 7ish most mornings (or will stay in bed that long) so I'm not messing with her schedule unless it really goes wacky!

Maybe we can get some more eyes on here to help you figure out the nw'ings.

[katie80]

Hi Ladies! 

Christine, I couldn't see that you had a thread and not post.    I wouldn't count those as NWs, I would just call it disturbed sleep (yes, very technical terms, I know).  But, to me a NW, means awake for at least 10-15 min.  I think you're right on considering them due to a little OT, as when you lengthened the afternoon A is when you noticed them.  But, she's not fully waking, so I think that's a good sign. 

In terms of lengthening out the day, the only way I've been able to do that with Claire is to do 2 naps, but I know that's not an option for you.  So, I think we need to look at it as just adjusting the day, instead of lengthening it.  This is what Liana has suggested by adding on 10 - 15 min of A time every few days.  And it sounds like adding the A time is what helped before, so that might be the case.

On the APOP side, I also think you're right to be a little hesitant.  Would Sophie go for you just going in to her and patting or shhing her back to sleep instead of holding her?  I think in the long run that will help her more to transition than holding her.  HTH! 

[Tao]

Yeah! I have my team back, lol. Hi Katie =).

So today, good news! After putting her down at 6 p.m. last night rather than at 5, she slept until 5:15 this morning rather than waking at 4:30. Yippee! So, I gave her the same 5:45 A time that I usually give her and pushed her morning nap to 11 a.m. I was a teenie bit scared because this is an hour later than I normally put her down for her nap but I was hoping that she just needed more awake time before going down. THis worked! She slept for an hour and a half!!! Yippee. Today I will put her down at 6 again. I know that it's pushing her afternoon A a bit, but hopefully this will start a trend of later wake ups.

Last night she whined a bit again here and there, but nothing to where I needed to go in! SHe slept straight for 11 hours and 15 minutes...

Let's hope for the same thing tomorrow.

[katie80]

Sounds good!

Let's hope for the same thing tomorrow.

Will do! 

[alohahellokitty]

Oh yippie!!!!!!!!!! Hi Katie!! Good to see you again.

I think this is working Christine!! Keep doing it as she tolerates it!!! Just slowly move it all later. That's awesome!! She just needed more time to be awake. Watch for her signs... I think you'll start seeing more as you move things back.

To be honest Anna doesn't fight naps or bt anymore due to a little daily OT. She just crashes out now. Unless the OT gets going for days, then we start having ew'ings and such.

[katie80]

How's it going, Christine? 

Just slowly move it all later.

I think this is the key.  I was thinking about this, and last fall when the clocks changed back, Claire woke up at 5:30 am for a good month afterward.  I slowly moved bedtime out by about 15 min every few days (didn't even really move naps at all, but she still took two, so it was a little different).  Anyway, after getting bedtime back to 7 pm, it did take another week or two before she finally started sleeping a little later in the morning.  So, as long as Sophie doesn't start NWing or EWing any earlier, just go slow and keep it up, and I think she'll get there.

[alohahellokitty]

How's it going Christine?

[Tao]

Hi Ladies,

Sorry I've been absent for a while. We're in the process of trying to buy and sell a house so things have been a bit crazy. Okay, so we've been a bit all over the place lately. Not sure what to think of it. Sigh.

So on Friday night, we had to be out at a meeting looking at homes so I wasn't able to put Sophie down until 7 p.m. Luckily she still slept well and she didn't wake until the next morning at 6:15. She had never slept in until this late so I wasn't sure what to do, but decided to give her the same morning A time as usual and this is what we got:

6:15 Wake
12:10- 1:20 (I put her down at 11:45 but she cried hard and then whined until 12:10. DH went in after she woke at 1:20 to see if he could get her to sleep a bit longer and she slept a bit more until 1:45)
640 BT went down right away

Here's where the problem started. So, I don't know if this is OT build up or not tired enough at BT because for the past two nights when putting her down for BT she starts screaming and standing...She hasn't done this in a long time. Even if she stands for a bit she'll wail a few times in the past and then lay down and try sleeping on her own so I'm not sure what's going on.

Sunday:
5:30 Wake
11:10-1215 (a bit shorter than usual)
615 (I'm thinking maybe OT, maybe I pushed BT too late. Because I initially put her down at 5:45 but she stood crying and whining until finally went down at 6:15. I didn't really have to go in there because crying tapered off)

Today:
515 Wake (I'm realizing that depending on what time I put her down for BT, she'll sleep 11 hours or a bit more for night time and that will determine her wake time the next morning.)

11:00-12:40 Nap (She woke on her own at noon, but I knew this wouldn't be enough sleep to get her to BT, so DH went in and held her and she slept for another 40 minutes)

6:00 (Just put her down and she was screaming SO hard. DH had to go in twice to say sleepy phrase. Don't think she's in pain because she was playing fine beforehand but maybe she's OT. She's used to my putting her down at 5 p.m. when she used to wake at 4:30 but since she's been waking earlier, I've been trying to push BT out but maybe it's backfiring)

Do you think I should try to put her down earlier tomorrow night, maybe after 4.5 H of afternoon A?

It's so hard because a 5:00 BT means most likely a 4:30 wake time so there's no way I can push her nap till 11 a.m. like I have been...Hmm

Sorry for the long drawn out message. I don't want to start a horrible BT habit. She's standing again after 35 minutes of doing this on and off...I hope she sleeps soon.

Thanks Ladies!

[alohahellokitty]

Christine,
Is standing a sign of ut for her?

[Tao]

You know honestly I think so because through the whole bought of standing a few weeks ago (remember) it wasn't until I added more A time that she went down right away. Also, when I first started this post, during her naps a few times she was standing and once I went back to 5:45 A she goes down right away now. The only thing I'm concerned about is:

* Since her naps are only 1:15 or so....I can't figure out if that means her A time in the a.m. was TOO much. The 5:45 A makes it nice in that she'll go down right away, no standing, but I wonder if this is a good amount of nap and maybe I just need to push BT closer.

* I have an inkling that maybe she can handle more a.m. A time and p.m. A time not as much. A week ago I was doing 4:30 minute A before bed and she went down right away and didn't whine at all through the night. Where as now, she kinda whines through the 11 hours of sleep. Not a lot but she will here and there. Maybe I just need to try 4:30 A tomorrow before bed and if she goes down like a charm then maybe she's OT at bed, and if she still puts up a fight then it's a signal to me that she's still UT and that I can push BT even later, which honestly would be nice because then I get a later wake up...

I still find that it's so hard with her. SHe's really really hard to figure out. I don't know if it's just because I'm not in tune enough or her touchiness makes it tough. Because she's a sensitive baby overall, it's hard to know when fussiness means "i'm tired" or "I'm just annoyed" or I'm bored. Because she gets upset over little things really easily. LIke if I change her activity constantly, she'll be fine but if she's playing with something for too long she gets annoyed and starts throwing it and doesn't want it.

I'm definitely still trying to learn every day.