Stopping nursing to sleep - how do I know night feeds no longer required?

[timmysmommy]

Just following along!  I like the way you put things katet!  Help them relax so they can fall asleep    Looking forward to hearing your progress spammer!

[spammerb]

So I have yet another question...

Sometimes (especially at bedtime) our spirited DD will initially not be able to nurse to sleep, as even the nursing cannot help her to 'switch off'. At these times she gets so very tired and seems to be looking for a way to fall asleep when the boob won't do it. I do try and help her by stroking, rubbing etc etc but they haven't worked to date - she eventually (normally at least an hour) gets drowsy, and then only at this final point she will nurse to sleep.
I understand that we need to help her get relaxed to want to sleep, but she can get relaxed and drowsy without nursing but still hasn't made the transition to sleep without nursing.

This may be a stupid question, but when we change this pattern and stop nursing to sleep, how does she actually learn how to fall asleep on her own? Is it just through the sheer tiredness (and tears?!) that she can't fight sleep any more and has to just fall asleep on her own, and then the repetition of this is the realisation for her (not necessarily consciously?) that she doesn't need to nurse?

Hope this makes sense!

We will be starting in just over a week....

Thanks

And thanks for checking in again Amy!

[anna*]

That was how it worked for us. My LO was learning how to soothe to sleep without a dummy - he learned to use his hands and his dummy to soothe himself. In the end, the only way to teach her to stop nursing to sleep is to stop nursing her to sleep. It may be that some hard tears are inevitable - I think it is with some babies - but remember when she's crying that she's not afraid or in pain, just tired and frustrated. Remember that if you feed her, then try for an hour to calm her down, and then nurse her again, you're not teaching her to soothe herself, rather reinforcing thtat she can't soothe herself without nursing.

[Katet]

Sometimes (especially at bedtime) our spirited DD will initially not be able to nurse to sleep, as even the nursing cannot help her to 'switch off'. At these times she gets so very tired and seems to be looking for a way to fall asleep when the boob won't do it. I do try and help her by stroking, rubbing etc etc but they haven't worked to date - she eventually (normally at least an hour) gets drowsy, and then only at this final point she will nurse to sleep.
I understand that we need to help her get relaxed to want to sleep, but she can get relaxed and drowsy without nursing but still hasn't made the transition to sleep without nursing.

This may be a stupid question, but when we change this pattern and stop nursing to sleep, how does she actually learn how to fall asleep on her own? Is it just through the sheer tiredness (and tears?!) that she can't fight sleep any more and has to just fall asleep on her own, and then the repetition of this is the realisation for her (not necessarily consciously?) that she doesn't need to nurse?

Thanks

Honestly I think you could be looking at 2-3 hours of trying to relax her before she actually does fall asleep & yes there could be tears etc. The key is to realise the first few days/week WILL take a LONG time, start bedtime & naps earlier to allow for the fact it will take that long time to get to the place she falls asleep.

Even with my 5yo who at times I will stroke his hair to help him go to sleep, there is often about a 10min transition phase where he is drowsy, but if he is in a mood & I leave before he is properly asleep it is back to square one again (BTW I don't do this regularly, but if say I've not been home for bedtime 2 nights in a row (like last week) he is difficult the next night I am home... we know the pattern & we work with it.

Anyway back to with Your DD, I actually say that there could be a 20min or more "transitional" stage where she is drowsy & you think she's about to fall asleep & then suddenly is more alert, that will get less as she gets more used to the new skill, but mentally I think if you look at the first couple of times it *could* take 2-3 hours (eventually drop to say a 20min bedtime routine over time) then you will be less likely to give in & think "I'll just nurse"

TBH, how they learn to fall asleep... don't know, but they do, I do think children are different, my DS2 has been able to fall asleep almost anywhere (except bed as a 2yo) often falling asleep on the rug while playing as a 3yo, but one of his cousin's (6yo) has only ever fallen asleep in bed, can sit & watch TV until 1am & not fall asleep. I do think it can be different with a child where a parent is activily doing PU/PD then it can be about sheer & simple exhuastion, where as say when I did what I have done with my two it has been more about being relaxed to the point they go to sleep.

[inoella]

Hi there! I still haven't figure out what to do about the night feeding(s) but I have had success with naps and BT so I thot I'd share in case it helps.

I ended up doing WI/WO (walk in/walk out). There was lots of crying for the first few naps and first night but she was just frustrated - I know because it was the same cry she has when she's stuck in the car and ends up falling asleep. It was a real eye-opener for me to realize that she was crying in the car simply because she was frustrated - I'm right there with her - she's just mad that she's so tired and can't fall asleep.

I hadn't wanted to do WI/WO because I didn't think I could handle ANY crying - even if it wasn't a desperate "i need you cry". But by nearly 12 months she simply wasn't falling asleep nursing anymore and I couldn't APOP even if I wanted to! Even when she was really tired. And that was making her frustrated too! It really only took 2-3 days with 2 naps and 2 bt (and one night of a 2.5 hour waking) for her to get used to falling asleep laying down in her crib with her lovey. The first night I stayed by her crib until she fell asleep but that was an improvement over falling asleep in my arms. Now she still nurses before most naps and BT but it just helps her calm down - she isn't anywhere near falling asleep. For naps I just let her nurse a while and then we close the curtains and snuggle and I put her down in the crib. For BT she nurses and then we read a story. Does your LO use a lovey? Mine never liked hers until I did WI/WO. Now after I put her down in her crib I give the bunny a kiss and then give it to her and she gives it a kiss too. It's the cutest thing thing ever!

I know WI/WO isn't for everyone but in our case I realized that once DD had "outgrown" being able to nurse-to-sleep I had to help her fall asleep on her own cuz she was falling into an awful OT loop. And we are both a lot more relaxed about sleep. Now if she's a tad UT she chats away for a little while or she fusses a bit if she's a bit OT but she knows the routine and is happy with it.

hth...

[spammerb]

Anna - thanks for your words... I think I am a 'rescuer', and cannot bear her to cry at all. So I need to keep remembering that when she cries it will be because she is tired and frustrated.
I worry that even after nearly a year has passed I don't know one cry from another...

Katet - thanks again for all the preparation information! I think I am prepared for the worst! Our nights are so bad anyway (last night bedtime 1900, wake 2200 and 45 mins to get back to sleep, wake 0020 and an hour to get back to sleep, wake 0320 and 40 mins to get back to sleep), and an 0700 wake. A couple of nights ago it took from 0245-0530 to get her back to sleep! So throw in some heartwrenching crying on top and that's half as bad as I'm expecting it to be!!

After our first night, when we come to the first nap, how long do you try for until you abandon the nap or do you just continue until she goes to sleep? We are in a 2-1 transition at the moment anyway... some days we get two naps in, others she'll refuse the first one so we end up with one nap and a very tired girl at bedtime! She needs a good long one nap, but they're always too short.

Jaci - so glad to hear things are going well with BT and naps...
Is she still waking as frequently in the night now that she can self-settle?
We have had quite a few nights when nursing doesn't work any more, we go round in circles and eventually she will nurse to sleep but we're both exhausted by then. We have just got ourselves in such a bad mess of not knowing how to get her to sleep and we know it's not good for any of us... it's the fear of the unknown and her crying and of failure (because what do we do then??!!) that has made me put it off for so long... and it's pathetic. 

Now after I put her down in her crib I give the bunny a kiss and then give it to her and she gives it a kiss too. It's the cutest thing thing ever!

That's lovely! 
Is a lovey a cuddly thing that they can take in their cot?

I know WI/WO isn't for everyone but in our case I realized that once DD had "outgrown" being able to nurse-to-sleep I had to help her fall asleep on her own cuz she was falling into an awful OT loop.

That's where we find ourselves a lot now... she's outgrown it and I feel like she's needing me to show her how to fall asleep on her own. We have that OT loop too. Did you do WI/WO as a 'hands off' method rather than PD? I think you said in your post that you started with (PU) PD? What made you decided to do WI/WO? Was PD not working?

Thanks again all!

[Katet]

I'm a resuer too LOL

Honestly I'd say trust your instinct, if you feel like quiting give yourself 10mins more & push through it... I'd keep at it at bedtime until you get sleep & at nap time for at least 40mins for the first nap & if that is refused, break for 20mins (do something quiet) & then go back to it, but if you get to an awake time of about 5-6hours without a nap maybe try for a car trip if she falls asleep in the car?

[inoella]

Hmmmm - we're going thru 2-1 too. Honestly, I'm wondering tho if she's in an OT loop if you should just shorten the A times and plan for 2 naps until she "learns" to fall asleep on her own. If you follow Tracy's plan - like Katet has described - you'll both be pretty worn out and will need to try for 2 naps. It worked for me cuz DD was soooooooooo massively OT. But if you do just get one nap early BT is king!


Yep  - A lovey is just a little cuddly thing that you  try to get your LO to use as a comfort thing. DD uses a little blanket with a bunny head - she likes the ears.

The bottom line is we're not perfect and we're going to make mistakes so we just gotta love 'em and put one foot forward and hope it's in the right direction. You know best - you'll get a feel for it. But you gotta pick a way and stick to it for at least 2 weeks cuz by this time old habits die hard.    Good luck - you can do it!

[Lemonthyme]

My LO is 6 months and was waking 4-6 times a night for food.  He wasn't actually all that hungry when he woke so we tried PUPD with him.

Now I can't say he's perfect; the time change and teething have complicated matters but he has improved and now even when he does wake when it's not his feeding time he doesn't "look" for it on me.

We started by going for 4 hourly feeds so as he goes to bed at 7, we would not feed before 11.  Whenever he woke for his first feed, his second feed would then be 4 hours later (as long as it wasn't between 5 and 6, in which case we would not feed till 6.)  We then got down to one which is where we're stopping for now.

[anna*]

The original advice for PUPD is:
For naps, you do PUPD for 45 mins. After 45 mins if she's not settling at all, you abandon the nap, reduce the next A time, and do PUPD again for the next nap
At bedtime and for nightwakings you keep going without a break until she sleeps.

[spammerb]

Thanks again all of you for your reassuring words, advice and information.

We are due to start on Tuesday. DD has had a head cold for a week, and is still full of snot and having trouble breathing through her nose. She has in the last couple of weeks cut her first 2 teeth, and I think she might be teething again due to 7 NW last night (but only 1 the night before! - both recent records), and drooling etc.
Is it OK to start like this or do we need to wait until the cold clears up/teeth come through?
I don't want to put it off but I don't want it to be any worse than it has to be for her (and us!).

And yet ANOTHER question! So, the first night I will feed until drowsy but not asleep and then put in cot and start... would this be the same with naps - to feed until drowsy and then put in cot etc?
And would it always be best to feed until drowsy and then put in her cot or could we gradually move the feed further away from bedtime, say feed then book then sleep? Is that just personal choice or do some methods work better than others for different bad habits/temperaments?

Hmmmm - we're going thru 2-1 too. Honestly, I'm wondering tho if she's in an OT loop if you should just shorten the A times and plan for 2 naps until she "learns" to fall asleep on her own. If you follow Tracy's plan - like Katet has described - you'll both be pretty worn out and will need to try for 2 naps.

I agree Jaci - I don't think she's really ready for 1 nap yet anyway, just some days recently I can't get her down for her morning nap, and then by the time I can, we don't have time for 2. But I'll be aiming for 2 naps.

I'm a resuer too LOL

I'm glad I'm not alone!

Thanks everyone - I'll bet you'll be pleased when we actually get this underway!!

[Katet]

I think you have to trust your instinct, if you are coming into winter (we are summer here) then colds are a going to happen A LOT, & teething also, so if you keep holding off until she isn't teething/well, I'd say you won't do anything until she is 2.5yo... so if you think she is ok, then go... little bit of age appropriate cold medicine may help the cause... if she is teething, I'd also give a bit of pain med if you are agreeable so you can sort of rule out that issue for yourself mentally (I not feel sorry & stop)

I think the best thing is to work towards moving the feed away from sleep putting a story in between is good... BW is about Eat/Activity/Sleep (EASY... with the Y being "you time" when they sleep)

[anna*]

ITA with Kate - if you wait until she's not got a cold and not teething, you'll be waiting a long time!!

[spammerb]

Thanks Anna & Katet - fair points, well made! Full steam ahead for Tuesday. We have kept her fairly well topped up with meds over last week due to cold and teething. Don't like to give them but rather that than pain for her.

Our EASY has been EAESY so far so it will be nice to finally have them in the right order!

[EloysH]

good luck for Tuesday     just remember if you accidentally cave for one sleep, just pick up where you left off for the next sleep!