What if you run out of time?

[Lemonthyme]

To wean completely off the breast at 6 months isn't right!  No way is he ready not to have milk.

I suppose I'm wondering what the bigger evil is; have him in "bad" habits for naps using breastfeeding as a prop or not breastfeeding enough?  It doesn't seem to be affecting his night-time sleep; in fact the reverse.  Last night when he hardly breastfed during the day he was back to two feeds in the night rather than 1.

[Shiv52]

To wean completely off the breast at 6 months isn't right!  No way is he ready not to have milk.

You're right.  Milk is the most important factor in a baby's diet until they are 1.  It contains all the nutrients and calories a baby needs to grow and develop.  Solids are for fun especially at this early stage.  Some babies, like Sara say, wean themselves from the breast and need to get another source of milk either EBM or formula as it really is important that it remains the main part of their diet until they are 1. 

Looking at your routine i see your LO is one 3 solid meals a day?  What amounts are you giving him and what is he eating at the minute?  At 6 months we were still only on 1 solid meal a day and built up to 3 meals by 7-8 months and at that stage I dropped a day BF but still had 3-4 BF a day.  Have you tried cutting back on solids to see will he take his milk properly again?  The fact he woke twice last night for a feed rather than once makes me think he is filling up on the solids during the day and not hungry enough for milk but as he needs the calories from his milk he will start to make up for them in the night time IYSWIM?   

HTH x

[~Sara~]

Some babies, like Sara say, wean themselves from the breast and need to get another source of milk either EBM or formula as it really is important that it remains the main part of their diet until they are 1.

This is what I meant by weaning...not onto cow's milk.  Sorry for the confusion.  I would NEVER, EVER suggest otherwise.

Anyways, I am off for a few days to spend with family.  Others are chiming in in the meantime.  Hope you find the help you need.

[Lemonthyme]

Well I talked to my health visitor yesterday and she thinks the solids he's on are the right amount.  Also if I wasn't feeding him solids and not feeding him before naps (as I was at around 4 months) he'd be getting nutrition from neither and waking up 6 times a night as he was then.

I think I've resolved to stick with things as they are for now.  They work, I know it's not "right" according to the books but it's a way for him to get milk in greater quantities.  If I go down the route of getting him off pre nap feeds, he will get less milk during the day and I'll end up having to use formula.  (You try expressing at 6 months; unless you've been doing it religiously, it just don't work.)  In my head, a baby who has breastmilk, sleeps ok at night and gets naps in the day even if he's fed to sleep is better off than a baby who is on formula or combined feeding and sleep during the day and night is worse.

[~Sara~]

If you're comfortable with how things are, then no one is going to pressure you to change.  We were just offering suggestions based upon the BW techniques because, well, that's what this site is about   Ultimately, Tracy understood (as do we) that there are parents who chose to do things differently than she/we do.  She often says in her books to start as you mean to go on; so again, if this is how you want to do things, it's completely up to you.  No one is going to judge you for it   Best wishes! 

[Tay]

Hiya,
Just following along... and 'butting in'. Does your LO have reflux? If so, is he on meds?
If that's the case it would explain a lot what you're describing, some refluxer find it easier to cope with smaller, more frquent feeds (it's a bit of a comfort thing plus it's never too big a feed that makes them uncomfortable).

n my head, a baby who has breastmilk, sleeps ok at night and gets naps in the day even if he's fed to sleep is better off than a baby who is on formula or combined feeding and sleep during the day and night is worse.

If you made your peace with it that's hat matters. I know that my priority was always night sleep, so I kinda get you...
xxx

[Lemonthyme]

No he's not got reflux.  He spits up but so do all babies.  He's not bothered by it.

Urgh.  Just been screamed at for 30 mins.  I know rationally I have to change this because it's not helping feeding him to sleep but likewise if I didn't feed him before naps, he would go for 5 hours or more between feeds and then just have 3/4 min distracted feeds, normally including biting.  The problem is that if he wakes up fully after his feed, he then refuses to nap and I end up doing PUPD.

I suppose a middle road would be to feed him when drowsy then properly wake him up before putting him down for a nap?

Before you say "put him on EASY" it really doesn't work for him.  I tried it.  If I'm forced down that route he'd be on formula (which I tried this week from a cup as he won't take a bottle and he rejected it.)

[Canwi]

Forgive me for being blunt, but what is it you want us to help you with?  
The girls have offered you many suggestions and you seem very sure that none of them will work or that none have worked.  If you want to change something, we will gladly help you to make changes following Tracy's philosophies and principles.  But if you do not want to do the things suggested, you need to make peace with that and accept that you have chosen that option.  No-one will think any less of you for choosing the second option, but it would be much clearer to all.

Have you taken the http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52283.0  is your LO?  Knowing what temperament your LO has will flavour the approach that you need to take with your LO.  Spirited LO's, for instance, need things a little slower than Angel LO's.

Have you tried any other parenting book methods?  This is not meant to be a judgement.  Just that this information can help us understand if you have tried other methods that leave LO's with "a bad taste in their mouth" so to speak about sleep training.

With regards to BFing, at 6 mths old a child should only be having a few mouthfuls of solids.  This is a pretty much world wide recommendation.  The main form of nutrition should be some form of milk, be it breastmilk or formula.  I suspect that your LO is getting too full on solids and has no room for milk, so he thinks that biting is a good form of entertainment.  What do you do when he bites?
What solids are you feeding your LO?  Does he have allergies or food intolerances that may be partly to blame for his poor sleeping?
I'm not sure I understand how going onto EASY equates to having to use formula. There are many, many mothers on this site who follow the EASY routine and BF their babies well past a year.

When you say he doesn't have reflux, why do you feel that this is the answer?  Have you had a look at http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0 to see if there is a chance that he may have some form of reflux that you can help alleviate with some non-medicinal means?

I know there's alot of questions here, but I am really struggling to get a grasp on what it is you want us to help with.  And the answers to these questions would help us to help you.  Commendations on continuing to BF with a biting LO!  I know that would have put me off BFing for very long

[Lemonthyme]

I've followed medical advice on my LO with his weaning and if anything, I'm being told to feed him more.

Sorry if it seems my posts are confusing.  I'm depressed and although we've had good progress on night times (most nights, last night was awful) the days are tough.  I struggle with him on my own.

Oh and the biting is nothing about hunger or not hunger.  If he falls asleep in the car for example and misses when he'd normally have food he will still bite me sometimes.

The EASY thing is that (and I feel like I'm repeating myself here) he will not breastfeed after naps.  I've tried.  Anyway, formula is out of the question.  He won't take that either.

[Lemonthyme]

Ha!  Well on that scoring he comes out equal on Angel and Textbook!  Ha!  Maybe on everything apart from sleeping!

[~Sara~]

*hugs* It's tough when they don't sleep...I know...DS was a short napper for about 2.5 months and I had to extend every. single. nap.  Sat in his dark room with my arms over the crib for so long that they would go numb and my back ached.  Looking back, I should have been more patient and forgiving of myself...I hope you know that we're here for you because many of us have BTDT

So, to reiterate what Deb asked in her last post, where would you like to go from here?  Would you like to work on his naps, his feeding, neither, both?  It's up to you, really; we don't want to "push" our advice on to you, but it would be helpful--if there is something you want to work on--if we had a plan in front of us and could work step by step.

If you'd like to start fresh, let us know what issues you want to look at and then his EAS for a day...we're not looking for a "perfect" routine (whose is, really?), but just what he is doing and when he's doing it.

More *hugs* for ya!

[Lemonthyme]

I suppose the thing is apart from the biting thing he either misses feeds during the day or snacks and then ends up sleeping worse at night.

I suppose the feeding to sleep thing in the day when it works I have no problem with but it doesn't always and then I get a lot of crying from him and he never sleeps for more than 45 mins during the day but can at night (he's managed 8 hours before) so it's just frustrating.  Then if I have to do PUPD with him it means his third nap gets too late so I have to take him out in the pram or car (difficult in the snow).

I just think though I'd struggle if he was crying for every nap though.  I'm not sure I could take it.

I suppose I would like to find a way of feeding him when drowsy (trust me, it is the only way he will breastfeed well) but also put him down awake but I'm not sure if I can do that or if it will work.

[Canwi]

What makes you sure he doesn't have reflux?  'Cause what you are describing in just your last post sounds like acid reflux (aka heartburn) to me. 
- only BF well when drowsy
- will actively miss feeds
- never sleeps more than 45 minutes
These were all things that my DS2 did.  We never had issues with him laying flat for changing nappies, or large amounts of spit-up.
If you have a reflux baby, NO amount of sleep training under any system will help him or you until you have the pain under control.

So what things would you say or describe that would convince me otherwise?  I am trying to help you walk through the trouble shooting you need to do to find a way to get him to go to sleep well and still feed well.

[JennŠ]

Agreeing with Deb about reflux.  Mine was like that when her's was the worst.  LO does not have to actually "spit up" it can come up part way and burn, then go back down. 

[Lemonthyme]

A GP did think he had reflux; prescribed infant gaviscon which made him worse due to pain when passing stools.  A health visitor checked him over and completely disagreed.

He does spit up but he isn't made upset by it.  His weight gain is good (despite being breastfed he has followed the centile line the whole time and has never dropped which is rare) and the only feeding when drowsy started as he got more aware of his surroundings when he was around 12-15 weeks old which suggests to me it's distraction not pain which is stopping him from feeding when awake, also when he won't feed when wakeful, he isn't in pain, he's playing.  He breaks off and smiles or bites, breaks off and smiles.

Trust me, he does not have reflux.  Just because he spits up, does not mean he does.  (Did you know 50% of babies have what is considered to be a weakened upper sphincter on their stomach?  Spitting up is normal.)