Lack of sleeping at naps!

[AvasMummy]

Thanks in advance for reading this post...this forum is seriously saving my sanity!

Ok so I've already posted on the PU/PD board but I no longer think self soothing is the whole issue...DD just doesn't want to nap! DD (18 weeks) has been on a 3-4 hour EASY and generally it's going pretty well STTN and taking really good feeds and even though sometimes it goes a bit pear shaped as were transitioning anyway we can always kind of claw it back by bedtime. However i've noticed a bit of a reoccuring theme, see what you think....

DD naps in the morning absolutely fine 2 hrs no problem but I've noticed for the last few days this is pretty much the only nap DD is taking?!? Take yesterday for example DD napped from 8:45 - 10:45 but that was it! She then had a 20 min cat nap at 12:30 and the rest of the time just lay in her cot wide awake until I went in a got her at E time...less than ideal but atleast she got SOME sleep. Then when she went down for her cat nap DD did not sleep at all! So she was basically up for 7 hrs solid bar the short little nap at 12:30?!? The weird thing is though she wasn't upset or fussing at any of the naps so i couldn't even really do anything to soothe her to sleep. But then come bedtime we had a complete melt down! I go by a mixture of her cues and the clock and I'm very careful about A time so I know it's not an OT/UT problem except come bedtime when it is a blatent OT problem.

Any thoughts?? What do you do for a child to get them to sleep when they don't really seem unhappy about not sleeping??

[*Sandra*]

I had the same thing with my daughter for a while.  I still don't know why it happened but it only lasted a week or two (I put her down for naps the whole time, she just didn't go).  I found that being out in her stroller or the car, with dark blankets over it helped her get a short nap and then it just grew into a longer nap.  Still don't know why it happened.

have you tried the stroller or car in afternoon?   I know it's not ideal but just wondering if she would sleep if she was on the move.

[Shiv52]

After STTN and then a fab two hour nap I would up that next A time by 15 minutes or so and see does that get you a longer nap. I think that she is lying content shows she's just not ready to sleep. 

[AvasMummy]

Ok DD has now had a turn of events and I really need some advice as she is not a happy camper anymore...understatement! DD still takes that lovely 2 hr nap in the morning and now has sorted her 2nd nap out all by herself which is now 2 hrs aswell It used to be 45 mins which I would try and extend and then DD would have another catnap to take her through to bedtime. I would be happy except she is refusing her third nap which she obviously still needs and is a complete wreck at bedtime. This has been our EASY for the last 3 days and something must need tweaking but I really don't know what...any ideas??

Wake 6:30am
E 6:45 am
A 7:15am - 8:30 am (including wind down)
S 8:30 am - 10:30 am
E 10:45 am
A 11:00 am - 12:30 pm (including wind down)
S 12:30 pm - 2:30 pm
E 2:30 pm
A 2:45 pm
S 4/ 4:30 pm try and get DD to take catnap but no luck
E pretty much refused to eat as so tired
S 5 pm in bed for the night as way too OT

Our EASY is going so well except for the very end and i'm guessing I must be getting her A times about right to get 2 amazing naps?!? So I have lots of questions:

Can DD really be ready to drop 3rd nap at 19 weeks?
Do I need to alter that last A time at all? (Although it seems whatever A time it is I get the same result)
How shall I tackle an EW if it does occur due to the extra early bedtime? 5pm just seems ridiculous but if it's short term I don't really mind.
Shall I just take it that DD has dropped the 3rd nap and start bedtime routine at 4:30pm temporarily?
Shall I try and make it so DD goes down for the 2 naps that we do have established a little later in the hope that it'll take her through to bedtime?

Sorry about 101 questions but I really was not expecting this and am completely freaking out?!?

Thanks

[Shiv52]

She could be showing you signs that she is starting to get ready to drop the CN but unless she can manage about 3 hours A time dropping it won't work. 

I think I would start adding 10 minutes to your A time.  You are getting such good naps that she should beable to handle it.  So do first nap at 8.40 and move the day forward by 10 minutes.  That way at least you are another 20 minutes further on in the day if she refuses the CN. 

Also after a 2 hour nap I would not be trying for a CN until at least 4.30 if not 4.40.  It could be she is UT and then becoming OT.  And if she was in bed at 5pm chances are she would have took the CN at 4.40 and bedtime could have been a more normal time.

I wouldn't start doing bedtime that early unless you are prepared to start your day at 4.30/5am.  has she been adding on the lost day sleep to her night and keeping normal(ish) wake up.  My LO never did and I always preferred to get the CN in (even if I had to AP it) and go for normal bedtime.

HTH x

[AvasMummy]

Thanks for your help! Luckily DD tacked the lost sleep onto her night so went straight through to 6:30 pm without a peep!phew! I thought she'd at least wake up for a NF as she pretty much lost a whole feed yesterday but DD just decided to sleep instead!?! I'll try and extend her A times a little bit then might be a bit difficult today as were going to out and about for most of it but I definately agree with offering the CN later I'm just so used to her going to bed at 6pm I think I was trying to rush in it rather than letting her take it when she was ready?!? So what I'll do is offer the CN no sooner than 2 hrs of A time hopefully more if i can push it and if she wont take it I think I'll get her out and try again...does that sound ok? Poor lo really needs this third nap!

Oh one more thing...its really difficult to judge when DD actually wakes up from naps (which I think is part of the reason why her 3rd nap has been such a disaster) because she'll just lay in her bed in silence no babbling or anything so i've been going in to get her at the 2hr mark but do you think I should just wait for her to call me? But then when do I start her A time? From the time I get her out of bed or from the time I think she wakes up at?

Thanks

[Shiv52]

Luckily DD tacked the lost sleep onto her night so went straight through to 6:30 pm without a peep!phew! I thought she'd at least wake up for a NF as she pretty much lost a whole feed yesterday but DD just decided to sleep instead!?!

YAY thats amazing!  Must have been exhausted!!

So what I'll do is offer the CN no sooner than 2 hrs of A time hopefully more if i can push it and if she wont take it I think I'll get her out and try again...does that sound ok? Poor lo really needs this third nap!

I think that is a good idea but what I would do is put a limit on what time you will try until.  What you could do is put a limit on what time you will offer the CN to?  So if she is refusing to go to sleep still by 5pm or whatever you could do early bedtime in light of her being so good last night. 

With A time I tend to count from when I know she is awake...so if she doesn't call you I would just count from when you get her up otherwise it could get confusing. 

Is she always awakw when you go in at the 2 hour mark?

Enjoy your day out and about, worry about extending the A times tomorrow x

[AvasMummy]

Ok so may have to start the whole process tomorrow as we've been out since 9am and DD has just CN...so i'll keep you posted on that one

Yes she is always awake when I go in and get her at the 2 hr mark...what does that mean? It's difficult to know when she actually wakes up as she doesn't make a sound do you think I should keep a check on this?

Thanks

[AvasMummy]

Ok we have a break through!!! DD took her CN granted it was in the pram so a bit of added AP but I figured this nap is sort of a freebie anyway and my main aim was to get her to take it in the first place regardless of how it was done! Alas she was still completely miserable before bedtime so I'm thinking she might be teething but we did have a more appropriate bedtime of 6:30 so my EASY today was pretty damn perfect! Woohoo!

[Shiv52]

Woo hoo!! Thats what I like to hear!!

Hope today was good too xx

[AvasMummy]

Back again! Thought i'd use my original thread rather than starting a whole new one!

OK so DD (now 21 weeks) has not taken her CN in nearly a month and as a result we are having a very miserable OT ordeal come bedtime which is officially driving me CRAZY! I have tried everything so if anyone has any new ideas I would absolutely love you! DD used to be a textbook 45 min napper but gradually she has lengthened her morning and lunchtime nap herself which is amazing but I still can't get her to take the CN which she desperately needs. It was around the time she lengthened her 2nd nap that she started to refuse CN. So my current EASY looks like this:

E 6:30
A 6:30 - 8:30
S 8:30 - 10
E 10
A 10 - 12:15
S 12:15 - 1:45
E 1:45
A 1:45 - 3:45/ 4
S Try and get CN in between 4/ 4:30
E/A Bath and bedtime routine
S 6 pm

DD will then STTN absolutely fine regardless of whether she went down majoryly OT but I literally have a miserable baby for hours before BT. We recently found out that DD is MPI which may have been the problem as to why she wasn't settling before but thats under control now so she has noo excuse?!?

DD used to have 2 2hour naps which I shortened to 2 1.5 hour naps in the hope that she'd be tired enough to take CN. I have found that if I shorten these naps I can APOP a CN (car, buggy or usually with DD laying on me or
rocking) but even though she's had that extra little sleep DD still wakes up miserable?!? It's almost as if once she goes down for that 3rd sleep (if i'm so lucky) she classes it as her day done and wants to stay in bed for the night even if it's only 5pm?!? I've also noticed DD's A times have been creeping up the last few days so do you think it's possible that she wants to drop CN and maybe if I extend the other 2 naps back to 2 hours and aim for a 5/5:30 pm bedtime (temporarily) that would work? I've done ridiculously early BT's before and DD still kept the same wake time?!? I'm just sick of trying to get a CN in that she obviously doesn't want.

Thanks for you help....once again!

[Shiv52]

Just adding some {{{hugs}}}

I'm thinking LO needs more A time and go back to 2 hour naps but am headed out the door as just back from holiday and have no food in! Will be back later xx

[Shiv52]

Hello!

Ok at 5 months average A time is 2.25 hours edging towards 2.5 hours by 5.5/early 6 months.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652

I think the CN refusal is your LOs way of saying she needs a bit more A time.  the fact that early bedtimes work for you is going to be a big help!

What I would do is increase A time by 15 minutes and let her nap 2 hours.

So your routine would be something like:
6.30am Wake up
8.45am Nap
10.45 Wake up
1pm Nap
3pm Wake up
5.30 (ish) Bed 

Would she nap for longer than 2 hours? 

If she's handling the extra 15 minutes A time I would then aim to get him up to 2.5 hours A time in a week or two and that will shift the day forward nearly another hour getting you back to normal bedtime.   does that seem like it would work?

[AvasMummy]

Thanks! Hope you had a nice holiday!

I've been thinking DD needs to get rid of the CN (as it has pretty much been a month) but just needed someone to tell me to get the confidence to go ahead with it! Daunting?!? I managed to get her to take it yesterday in the bouncer chair with a lot of work from DP and when it was time to get her up she was soo angry...think she just wanted to stay asleep.

Well her 2nd A time has extended to 2.25 all by itself but the morning A is still short even 2 hrs is a push for her so not sure how easy that's going to be to extend...but I will give it a go! Yeah I think she'd happily nap more than 2 hours she doesn't actually call for me to get her at the 2 hour mark I just go in because it's E time but she's always awake just sucking her fingers. What length of nap would you suggest? If I do longer than 2 hours does that mean I just let it go past E a little bit...which tbh wouldn't be a big deal right now because we've started her on solids early due to the MPI (mummy wants normal chocolate again!he he!) so she can probably handle it.

Thanks

[AvasMummy]

So far pretty good...but it's only be a few days so i'm hoping were on to something here.

E 6:30
A 6:30 - 8:30
S 8:30 - 10:45
E 10:45
A 10:45 - 1
S 1 - 3/3:15
A 3/ 3:15 - 5
E 5
S 5:15 (BT)

I've tried extending her first A time but no luck yet so i've just let her nap 15 mins longer to take her to the time you suggested. She's a very high sleep needs baby so she seems to have no problem with this. DD has never been able to do a 12 hour day and even with 3 naps the original BT was 6 pm so in light of dropping the CN i've put it to 5:15pm so she essentially adds it on to her night.

One thing I am a bit worried about is I really struggle to get her to take a feed at 5 pm as she has such a huge feed at 3 pm that I think she just genuinely isn't hungry...so DD is having 3 big feeds and a snack before BT with some solids in the morning (but this is working progress and more goes on the floor than in her mouth). Do you think she's getting enough calories in the day? I really don't want it to cause NW as I feel we are then taking a step back and DD has never taken a DF. Also what would I do in a situation where I have to cut the AM nap short (baby group etc.)...would I give her an extra feed before her PM nap and just make this nap longer say 2.5/3 hours? So it would be something like this:

S 8:30 - 9:45
E 9:45
A 9:45 - 12/12:15
E 12/12:15
S 12:15 - 3

Usually if a nap has to be cut short I would get her to take an extra CN before bed but that is now a no go area?!? And EASY is so drilled into her that if I don't feed her when she gets ups she gets very angry!

Any suggestions? Thanks