Waking up every hour for the second half of the night.

[mmom]

(((HUGS))) Looking at the EASY you just posted, there is too much day sleep. I would cap that morning nap at 1.5 hours if you are going for a longer afternoon nap.

She may get OT at those wakings and eventually need your help, as she is really crying for you, but in the meantime, you need to let her try and put herself back to sleep.  It is not uncommon for babies (and adults) to wake throughout the night.  But they put themselves back to sleep.  It is 4:30 am here and I just heard my youngest whimper, chat, and then go back to sleep. If I had gone in to assist him, it would have woken him more and disrupted his sleep.  KIWM?

On the days that you need to so a short afternoon nap and you feel like she can't handle 3 hours, do 2.75.  Yes, it means an early BT, but if you can eliminate OT, then it is worth it.  

[Liliben]

Had the most horrendous night. I feel as if I should have just stuck with things the way they were. Our days were fine and predictable, we'd have uninterrupted evenings and NT was merely waking, cuddle and put back down. Now that I've tried to sort that out the whole 24 hours is a mess!! Daytime naps were 2hrs in am and then 2 other naps of 45 mins or 1 of 1.5 hours at wkend when I didn't have to wake her. The last 2 days she's had 2 OT naps of 45 mins and it didn't help NT at all. Again sh'e so OT by BT she doesn't take enough milk so she fell asleep after 1 oz of EBM at 5.15. She'd woken from a 45 min nap at 3.30. She woke screaming (and until 2days ago we'd never had this!) at 8pm so I BF. She woke again at 9.30 and 10.30 screaming. It seems like OT screaming tome. I am medicating for teething so it can't be that. She woke again at 12.30 when I BF. She woke then at 1.30am fussing so I left her, within 15 mins she was screaming and this carried on until 3.45. She then woke at 5am and I managed to get her back to sleep. She woke at 6am and I Bf. I've just put her down at 9.15 after school run - yawning terribly and almost nodding off in car. As i was putting her grobag on she started to scream. She eventually nodded off. AGain she's never done this at nap time before. She used to do her mantra gurgle and put herself to sleep but now I gather she's just very OT!! TBH I can't imagine putting her in her own room next door to DS if this is what she's going to do! He's 6 and was crying this morning because he's not having enough time with mummy and daddy because DD is so clingy in her tiredness. Until I started this she was such an easy happy little girl during the daytime. I feel as if I've messed everything all up for everybody just because I wanted some sleep. At least I had a routine in the day!! If this carries on I'll have to cancel DH's birthday meal next weekend and we've only been out twive together since she was born. At least before I knew she's sleep in the evenings for a babysitter. I wouldn't enjoy myself thinking about her waking and then upsetting DS too. As you can tell I'm extremely fed up!! I'd do anything to get back to the way we were a week ago!!!

[Liliben]

Mmom, the routine I posted isn't what we get, it's what would fit into DS's day! TBH now we don't have any form of routine at all.
We are now starting the day at 6am after chaos. She goes back to bed at 9.15 after the school run and has been waking now after 45 mins. I've always found allowing her to sleep as long as possible for the am nap better because I know I'll have to wake her to go to school at 2.45. The next 3 hours is chaos trying to get her to bed for 6pm as you've been suggesting. She's not eating properly or drinking enough milk and she's now waking throughout the evening as well as the night which she didn't do before. If she slept 1.5 hours after morning school run  (9.15 - 10.45) then an awake time of 3 hours she would sleep then from 1.45 until 2.45. Is 2.5 hours enough? It seems to me a bit on the short side for a baby who has always been a bit slow on the uptake with A times and who likes her daytime sleep. She's always been so content and happy until these last couple of days. It's so sad to see her grumpy and OT and she will not let me put her down when she's always been willing to entertain herself so I'm not getting anything done. It feels as though I'm not listening to her at all!  DS was completely different - very awake and demanding during the day with a short am nap and long pm nap at this age but even at age 1.5 he would sometimes have a long 2.5 hour nap in the afternoon and still sleep 10.5 hours at night. For DD 2.5 hours DT and erratic NT sleep isn't working!

[Liliben]

Sorry Brenda, DD doesn't really have a paci. What I mean by that is, there's one in the cot but she rejected it at about 4 months and up until then only had it at nap time. I've never been able to pop it in when she's just laying in her cot or pram though. only occasionally when she was snuggled in my arms. She's always gone to bed awake and had a sort of mantra gurgle to put herself to sleep. Did try and pop it in last night when we had the screaming for the firt time evre but didn't have much effect.

[Liliben]

Also, has now started waking up from naps unhappy and shouting out. Always used to WU and chat and then I'd know she'd had enough sleep. Not a good sign is it?

[mmom]

((HUGS))) It sounds like you have a lot going on.  I am wondering if you now have SA added to the mix.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=212037.0  Teething can really cause major SA!!

I know how defeating it feels when everything seems to be a mess.  Night sleep and day sleep so easily effect each other and it would be best to tackle them all at once.

If she is waking screaming and her A's are short, I question it being OT.  I know you are saying you are medicating, but LOs still have pain.  There was a time I had to alternate tylenol and ibuprofin around the clock and my LO was still waking from naps screaming and nights were effected.   If your LO has multiple teeth popping out, then she can be in a lot of pain.  You said that she doesn't have any teeth right?  Well, the first ones can be the worst.

The frequent wakings really do seem like discomfort.

[*Kara*]

ut total daytime sleep should be about 3.5-4 hours in a 12 hour day, not less

That isn't true.  If I let my DD sleep that much during the day, there is no way she would sleep at night.  Few babies will actually do a 12 hr night, let alone with that much napping.

[Liliben]

mmom, I thought you shouldn't try sleep training when teething. That there's not much point.

Kara, if BT is 6pm doesn't that mean the day start 6am at latest!! DD was sleeping from 7.45 - 1am without stirring at all until I dropped this catnap. Now she wakes constantly from BT. She seemed to do better on 3 - 3.5 hours sleep spread over 3 naps.

I'm completely at a loss. Don't know what to do.

[Liliben]

DD  was awake at 3pm (had tp pick up ds cause he's bumped his head) so nap from 1.45 - 3pm. Yawning and all over the place from 4.30pm.
BF 3.15
dinner 4.45
BF 5.40
She fell asleep 5 mins into feeding, snoring away. I tried to stir her, stroke her cheek, breast compressions etc, tried to wind her. Managed to get her to open eyes as I lai her in cot but very breifly. How can this be better than falling asleep later but independently after a catnap?

[*Kara*]

It is going to take a couple of weeks for her to adjust to no cat nap. If she still seems all over the place after a couple of days, I would lean towards a set schedule and do your best to stick with it for a week to reset her clock...

Like this:

7am wake
10am nap #1  - wake after 1 hr 15min (or 1 hr 30 if bad night)
230pm nap #2 - wake after 1 hr 30 min
BT at 730/8pm.

[mmom]

I am sorry to contradict you Kara, but I wouldn't do 3.5/4 hour A's when a LO is having a difficult time managing a 3 hour A.

However, doing a set morning and afternoon nap time is something I did at this age.  It is not very BW, but it helped with predictability.

[*Kara*]

No worries   At 8 months, I suspect that baby can easily do a 3 1/2 hour A time... mine likes to yawn when she isn't really tired, just bored   And anytime you reset babies schedule, they will show sleepy signs at the old sleep times, even when not really tired.

[mmom]

Teething, OT, and milestones can shorten A times.  My LO was doing 3-3.5 hours at 8 months.  But there are times when they don't conform to what you *think* they should be doing.

At any rate Lil, if  you are getting NWs close to bt, that can signal OT, UT, and pain.  In my house, they are always OT or pain.  We never get UT NWs, just chatty EWs when we needs to stretch As.  If you want to stretch As a bit, do it slowly.  I hope you have a better night.

[Liliben]

Sorry for sounding such a winge and as if I'm not appreciating all the advice mmom and Kara.

kara, the set schedule would be great if I didn't have this school run to contend with. I know it sounds as if DD is not managing A times appropriate for her age but she really doesn't. I wish she would. DS was on 2 naps from 6 months, a shorter one in the am and longer in pm, BT was always 7.30 but a bit of an early riser at 6am but had more time to lounge about and BF in bed etc and nap 1 was from about 10 - 11am.

My main problems is that DD has to conform to DS's day. The school pick up at 3 means I have to wake her so a 2.30 nap 2 is impossible. Because of this the 3 hour A time before bed is too long. She wasn't just yawning from 4.30 yesterday, she was flopping to one side and almost nodding off in her bouncy entertainer whilst I was trying to prepare dinner. There is a difference between yawns I think - you can tell that some are just recharge of batteries yawns and some are completely shattered. DD was shattered, the fact that she fell asleep BFing (we've always discouraged feed to sleep even in NW) proves to me that she was. Because her BT is now before 6pm (!?!) there is no way I can expect her to stay in bed more than 12 hours. So she's had an A time of 3.5 hours before she fell asleep at 9.30. Mornings are very busy. With getting DS ready etc DD plays in various places by herself and is also almost crawling so she doesn't chill that much until the car ride. We arrive home at 9.15 and I've tried reading etc to extend A time before PD but she becomes frantic.

The only thing I can think of doing is trying to keep her awake until 3.15am no matter what A time she gets after nap 1. This is the A time she manages the best probably because we can slow down a bit and DS is in school. We can sit and read stories etc and sing a bit. What do you think? Ideally

Last night, she woke screaming at 9.30 which lasted 30 mins. Managed to settle her and then slept until 1am. BF and medicated. WU 4am, settled easily with hand on tummy. Same again at 5.30am. Had to change nappy. WU at 6.20.left her chatting happily until BF at 6.45! So some improvement.

[mmom]

Honestly, I think you are doing great managing the 2.  I know how difficult it is to make sure both LOs' need are being met. I think until she grows into her A times a bit, you might have to do an early bed on the days that she has school.  So, keep that long nap in the morning and the shorter nap in the afternoon.  I would just keep that morning nap at the same time, even if she wakes earlier.  Some LOs will add onto their night and you might get a longer night, even with an early bed.  I had to put my LO down at 5:30 the other night, because he was absolutely miserable.   He slept until 6 the next morning.  He wouldn't do that every day, but we get lucky sometimes.

On the days that you don't have school and weekends, she can catch up with a  longer 2nd nap. 

At 9 months, we were doing a short am and a longer pm.  I realize your LO is on the lower end of A times.  But it shouldn't be too long before she grows into this routine and it doesn't make her OT.

As for the rest of it, I would still be mindful of how you deal with the wakings.  Only go to her if it is a real cry.  Don't just snuggle.  Then you will at least come through this with some established independent sleep.