2-1 transition - short am/long pm naps with chronic EWer

[clairebear79]

Sorry for being dense but is it that he will tack on lost day sleep to his night?

Exactly that!!!!  You push the AM nap out & cut it short to prevent the AM nap acting as an extension of night sleep.  Capping the naps then means they have no opportunity to catch up on sleep lost by EWing, except to add it on to their night.  Its an awful way to do it though, it does feel like I am forcing him to be awake when he wants to be asleep, but I just don't know how else to deal with his EW along with the 2-1.  I have seriously tried everything.  Almost 6 months of EWing now. 

Bear in mind my DS was waking at 5am ish (sometimes earlier) & then sleeping 1hr or more within 2.5-3hrs of waking.  So until I started this he WAS treating the AM nap like an extension of his night. 

As for the BT - it wasn't so long ago he was waking 5ish & BT was 6-6.30, so we've already made BT later & it hasn't had any major impact on his wakeup.  The trouble for me is how do I make BT even later???  B/c he's already doing HUGE A times in the day.  And if I allow more day sleep in order to get him to a later BT he will do a shorter night!  Eek!!!

Last night was good at almost 11hrs & I realise this isn't a true EW - but for the last month or so we've hardly had any of these, yet its not like he's having monster naps in the day either.  I just can't work out if he's just OT, needs more or less day sleep, needs to be on 1 nap already....I haven't a clue.

I am sticking at it for a few more days - I think I should maybe give the 20min nap a good week in total to see if that does the trick.  If it doesn't then I think I am going to allow him to sleep in the AM.  What worries me is that we will go from actually having a routine (which we've never had before) to having no routine again.  And that the EW's will carry on regardless.

[sianie]

Hi!

Sorry if this has already been covered but are there teeth or anything else going on that could be causing the issue?

TBH, long AM/short PM has always worked best for me as I found with both my LO's that the AM nap was always the longest & easiest to get them down for, PM naps were always a little bit more hit & miss, so at least with long AM I knew they would be pretty much guaranteed at least 1 decent nap. I also know a lot of Mum's swear by short AM/long PM to curb EW's, but as with all these things it's a case of trial & error to figure out what works best for your LO.

Agree about giving your current routine a couple more days before reviewing. It might be if things still aren't working then you could try long AM/short PM to see if that makes a difference. I've also found that over-tweaking a routine during transitions can actually make things worse sometimes.

EW's can be part & parcel of the 2:1 I'm afraid & sometimes no matter how much tweaking you do things don't really settle down until you get onto 1 nap 

[clairebear79]

Hi Sian - thanks for the reply.

He's got a couple of bulges on his gum - looks like his first molars are coming - but no red cheeks, dribble etc etc so I don't think they are bothering him too much (yet!).  No other possible causes I can think of.

He has been EWing since 5 month old.  Its not a new thing.  It started when we needed to drop the CN & we've never gotten rid of it, though we have had some periods where he wasn't technically EWing - he was just stuck in an early wake, EBT cycle.  Tried all sorts of ways to get a later WU - long am/short pm, set naps (4x), pushing day out gradually - nothing has worked so far.  Up until the last month he has NEVER had a consistent routine either.  I could apply the same A times all week & one day I'd get a 2hr nap, the next day a 1hr nap.  We were just all over the place.  As soon as I cut his AM nap down to 1hr things started to settle.  BUT we were in an UT/OT loop & his PM naps were really inconsistent.  Hence why I chose to shorten the AM nap further.  He is now giving us a consistently good PM nap, BUT he is very tired, b/c he is being pushed so hard in the AM.

I was thinking about long am/short pm though - if he was doing 4hr A, 2hr S, then 4hr A, 20-30min CN, 2.5hr A that would be a 13hr day still right.  He would be doing the same amount of sleep as he is now.  His CN would still be after a 4hr A time, so wouldn't he still be crabby if I had to wake him 20-30mins into a nap after 4hr A time?  I think I am trying to say does it really make any difference which way round I do it???

I also have a big worry.  I am nap cutting here there & everywhere, & pushing him to do X amount of A time, so how do I know when he IS ready to go to 1 nap??  Is it just a case of trying & seeing what happens?  Or is that risky business?

[sianie]

Don't under-estimate how much 1st year molars can mess up sleep (although your DS's EW's have been going on for a while & therefore are more habitual than teething related), but they won't be helping!

Longer days are part of the 2:1 & that's 1 reason why it's a tricky transition, we were regularly doing 13/14hr days at some points.

At around your DS's age my LO's routines (bear in ind they were on set-nap times) were as follows:

WU: Between 6/7am
AM nap: 10am (1.5hrs)
PM nap: 3pm (45mins)
BT: By 7pm

I think you need to aim for some consistency (as much as possible) in his routine rather than than keeping on tweaking. It really depends on the LO as to which way round long or short naps work best. My LO's never liked being woken from their naps but because they had already had a good AM nap I found it easier.

How much sleep is he averaging in a 24hr period?

[clairebear79]

Hiya - thanks for your reply

I know all too well teeth can have a big impact on sleep  - we had a horrible time a couple of months ago with long screaming NW's & irritable all day long when he was cutting all his front teeth.  As he's napping pretty well ATM (albeit EWing) I really don't think they are causing him any bother.  That's not to say they won't though!!!! 

At the moment he is averaging around 13hrs sleep in 24hrs.  Some days its only 12.5.  Its really not a lot for his age is it    Yet he's not putting up much of a struggle at sleep times.  I keep thinking he must be OT on so little sleep - but if he was we'd be getting a lot more wakeups & battles at sleep times wouldn't we 

I also ought to add that we've never had a 12 hr night.  At best we get 11hrs.

Looking at your routine, my DS is taking around the same amount of day sleep as your LO's were doing.  Its just served up a little differently i.e. 20min AM nap & 2hr PM nap.  Do you think that's the real issue here - not the amount of day sleep but how his naps are structured means he is just getting OT   

We are essentially doing set naps also - 20min AM nap 9.40 - 10am & 2hr PM nap 12.30-2.30pm BT at 7pm.  The only changes that have been made are to the AM nap, to push it out further & shorten it - this was to try & effect a later wakeup - based on advice I've seen here & on numerous other websites.  Its gotten a bit later, but not substantially.   

I've had it suggested to me that his EW isn't going to improve unless his AM nap is later, or shorter, or both, or maybe even cut out altogether.  What are your thoughts on that?

I am cautious about dropping his nap so soon, but cannot see how else to proceed.  I can by all means carry on as we are for longer, the only thing that bothers me is am I just prolonging the whole process & making him more OT?
 
Also if I switch to long am/short pm will I just confuse him b/c that's not the routine he's used to?

[Shiv52]

I think TBH I would do a 45 minute short nap and a 1.5 long nap whichever way you structure your day.   

Our routine was:

8am Wake up (3.5 A time)
11.30am Nap (1.5 hours)
1pm Wake up (3.5 A time)
4.30/ Nap (45 minutes)
5.15 Wake up
8.15/8.30 Bedtime

Reasoning being that you can still get a proper amount of A time after the short nap.  You are only doing 2.5 A time after than 20 minute nap aren't you?   Means the day can be properly stretched out without too much OT. 

I also think you should base your day on 13 hours and night on 11 at most so that you can plan WU better.  I think realistically you need a 7.30/7.45 bedtime if you want any chance of a 6.30am wake up.  But i don't think you'll get to that bedtime without more evenly spread out A times. 

Does that make sense? 

[sianie]

I definitely wouldn't be dropping to 1 nap just yet, it is a bit of a rocky road to ride out but you'll get there! 

I agree with Shiv that I think your short nap is a little too short & your long nap is a little too long, her suggestion above makes sense to me. I think as you are doing short AM/long PM I would stick to that for now.

It's rare for even good sleepers to get near a 12hr night during the transition so anything around 11hrs is good.

Part of the rationale for pushing the AM nap later when LO's EW is so that it doesn't become an extension of their night-time sleep, BUT there is also a fine line to tread so that LO's don't get OT.

[Shiv52]

I think as you are doing short AM/long PM I would stick to that for now.

I agree x

[clairebear79]

Thanks ladies. 

DH & I have talked long & hard over DS's sleep & have decided to hang in there with what we are currently doing for a little while longer.  Although it is brutally hard (on him & me  ) he does generally seem to be waking later in the mornings.  This means that his days are gradually getting shorter & the last 2 days have been 13h 10mins long - which I feel is much better for him to handle.  Today he woke 5.30am chattered for 5-10mins then went quiet until just after 6am.  I really hope he dozed off again.

Today has been a particularly difficult day though as he's so very tired.  I fell asleep while he was having his PM nap & when I woke I realised he'd been asleep for 2h 15 so I shot upstairs to wake him in order to preserve BT.  I think he'd have slept longer if I hadn't woken him!  BT 7.10pm but I suspect we may get an earlier wake tomorrow as his A time to BT was a little shorter than usual & that's after a longer nap.  I'm keeping my FX'd that if he is OT that will go a little way towards helping him catch up a bit.

I'll update in a few days with how things are going.xx 

[Shiv52]

Sounds like a sensible plan hun xx

[sianie]

Good luck...keep us posted! 

[clairebear79]

Ladies.....I have a little progress to report.

Yesterday went like this:

Wake:  6.00am                                        (woke 5.30 chattered for 5-10mins then quiet until 6)
Nap:   9.50 - 10.10   A = 3h 50  S = 20mins
Nap:  12.40 - 2.55    A = 2h 30   S = 2h 15   (I fell asleep so he slept more than 2hrs oops!)
BT:     7.10pm          A = 4h 15

This morning, he stirred at 6.10am, then quiet until almost 6.30am!  11h 20 night sleep!  I'm quite amazed.   As I said on the 2-1 thread, I don't want to count my chickens before they've hatched, but I think this may the be progress we've been holding out for.

Today however, b/c of the longer night sleep, he didn't seem ready for his nap when I PD at 9.45am.  Asleep at 10am for 20mins.  Again for PM nap he didn't seem nearly as tired as usual & fell asleep just after 1pm.  Woke at 40mins crying but has resettled himself to sleep.  Not sure if that's OT as he did almost 2h 45 A time after a 20min nap, or what   Anyhow, I'm hoping that we'll get a similar wakeup tomorrow.

[Shiv52]

GREAT news!! Hope it continues xx

[clairebear79]

So things were great for a day or 2.......then his wakeups have started to creep earlier again.  Last few days we've had 6.30am, 6.15am, 5.45am & today 5.30am.  This is with 20min AM nap & 2hr PM nap. 

So every day he has to do longer & longer A time until his AM nap & I am having to wake him from pretty much every single nap he is taking.  He also keeps falling over & losing coordination. 

Do you think that's a pretty good sign that this is all way too much for him?  His molar now appears to be cutting & he's also starting with a cold, so I know these could be influencing things, but he seems to be struggling.  We're 3 weeks in to pushing out that AM nap & capping it short in order to deal with the EW & we still have it.  Surely if this were the answer we'd have cracked it by now?  Or could the teething stop all that in its tracks?

I am actually quite tempted to just let him sleep tomorrow morning, but I am wondering if I should still wake him after a certain amount of time e.g 1.5 or 2hrs.  B/c I want to make sure he has a PM nap & that he doesn't take too much day sleep, as in the past this has robbed from his nights.  Also how do I contend with the early start if we go long am/short pm?  Do you just keep pushing the AM nap out later & later?  I could get him to 10am as a starting point no problem.

What do you think?

[sianie]

Don't underestimate the impact that especially molars have on LO's sleep. 1st year molars are some of the worst teeth for LO's to teethe (DS was a nightmare!!) so I would certainly have my money on this not helping the situation! We also always get EW's with teething  !

Don't forget that A-times can get shorter when LO's are teething. Are you giving meds before sleep?

I would maybe let him catch-up too to stop him from getting anymore OT.