2-1 transition - short am/long pm naps with chronic EWer

[clairebear79]

Hi everyone

I have a chronic EWer on my hands.  He is 10.5 months old & has been EWing since he was 5months.  B/c he wakes early, he always needs to go to bed early, meaning we have been stuck in a cycle of 6-6.30pm BT and 5am (or earlier wakeup).  I think his daytime sleep needs are reducing & that we are in the middle of the 2-1 so I have been posting on there for advice but wanted to get a few more eyes on our struggle!

He has been in an UT/OT loop for ages & it seemed the only way out was to push his AM nap out quickly from 8-8.30ish to 9.30.  We have done this over the last 11days & it is now capped at 30mins (previously 1hr).  This is now giving us a consistent 2hr PM nap from 12.30 - 2.30  , & we have finally been able to move bedtime to 7pm. 

A couple of days ago he woke 5ish & then went back to sleep until 6.25am which was the latest wake up we've had in months.  I was pleased as it seemed we were FINALLY making some progress with the new routine, but later that same day he went to his grandparents house & refused to take his PM nap in the travel cot.  They finally AP'd a 30 min nap in the pushchair but that was it. 

HOWEVER, since then his wakeups have gotten earlier again  (today 5.25am) & he is also massively OT.  I am keeping him up until 9.30 for his nap regardless of when he wakes, so he's doing a 4hr A time followed by a 30min nap.  I think he'd easily be asleep at 3hrs A time if I let him.  It just feels cruel but I keep telling myself in dealing with his EW I have to be cruel to be kind, as to let him nap earlier will just reinforce it.  He is sooooo tired out & is starting to have NW's & today has fought both his naps. 

I'm really not sure which way to go with this now.  I want to remain consistent with him, so that he learns he needs to take the extra sleep at night between 5am-7am, and my gut feeling is he needs the AM nap capping further.  Except he is so OT that I am scared capping it further will make things worse.  In some ways I just want to let him catch up, but I have given in so many times before for this same reason, and I would only have to start this whole thing all over again.

I think I'm just after some reassurance from anyone who has BTDT that I am doing the right thing, he will settle into his routine & that it WILL get better. 

Also, given the nap blip the other day I have no idea how long I should carry on doing 30min AM naps for, before I decide if it needs to be cut back further.  Any ideas?  I'm worried that I could make a mistake in capping the nap further when the earlier WU was just due to OT, rather than needing to cap the nap, IYSWIM?

TIA.xx

[~Sara~]

Personally, I would get him caught up on sleep first.  Maybe for a day or two, and then retackle the tweaking.  And if he's OT, I wouldn't cut down on his 30 minute nap anymore...after that, it's pretty much a jump to 1 nap which means he needs to be able to handle at least 5h A times on either side (that's with a 2-3h nap, depending on how long of a night sleeper he is).

Is he teething at all, or has he learned any new tricks lately?

[clairebear79]

Thanks for the reply Sara.

I really want to let him catch up.  However, I think my fear with letting him do this is that we will completely lose any progress we have made so far (i.e. consistent naps).  We have NEVER had that before.  What we are doing is essentially set naps, & I understand from what others have said, that they WILL inevitably get OT in doing this, but that if you push on through the OT they will come out the other side within a couple of weeks.  Except we've never actually got to the other side of the OT before - this is our 4th attempt at set naps/instilling some sort of routine in our DS.  And he's Touchy, so not the easiest of Lo's to deal with.  We always get to the OT stage, and then I give in b/c I can't bear to see him so tired.....but then after a couple of catch up days our EWing just continues.  And we're back to napping at 8-8.30am again.

I kind of feel like I have no choice but to see it through b/c I've stuck it out for 11 days already..... its just where to go to next in order to extend our nights a bit more, so that his 1st A time isn't quite so long.  This would then help to eliminate his OT.  He is doing between 10-10.5hrs at night ATM.  I've never had a 12hr night out of him, but he is definitely capable of a good 11 hr night (if I get his day sleep right).

I was wondering though, if I don't reduce his MN more, will his OT just continue, b/c he's having too much day sleep & so he just isn't going to sleep any longer at night   Then b/c he's being pushed to do a 4hr A time he gets OT again IYSWIM?  What are your thoughts on that  

This is the suggestion of a fellow 2-1er who has already transitioned successfully.  She thinks I'll not get a longer night until he's on 1 nap, but the only trouble is with all his EWing, its nearly impossible to get onto 1 nap b/c his days are too long.  He'd have to do 6hrs or so 1st A time to reach a midday nap from a 5am WU.  How on earth do I get there   As for whether he's capable of it - I have really no idea!!!  He could do a 5hr A time in the PM if he'd slept 2.5hrs at lunch I'm sure.  He does 4.5hrs now.  I just don't know how do sort out the AM side of things.

As for teething - yes I think we may have a molar on its way but its doesn't seem to be causing him too much trouble.  Developmentally - we hit wonder week 46 tomorrow & he has just learnt to pull himself up to standing, but this isn't having any impact on his sleeping (yet! )

[clairebear79]

Here's the last 2 days:

Wed:
Wake: 5.35
Nap:   9.30 - 10.00   (I woke him)
Nap:  12.35 - 2.35    (He woke at 1hr & 1hr 20 but resettled.  Woke himself at 2hrs)
BT:     7.00

Thu:
Wake: 5.25
Nap:   9.38 - 10.08   (He fought sleep a bit when I PD.  I think OT)
Nap:  12.52 - 2.50    (Took ages to settle. Woke at 30mins, 1hr, 1h 20 but resettled, then I had to wake him at 2hrs)
BT:    7.05

Today:
Wake: 4.55
Nap:   9.40 - 10.00
Nap:  12.25 - ??      (has woken crying at 40mins - currently trying to resettle )

So does it look like it is just OT causing him to wake even earlier???  I am really disappointed as the main advice for combatting EW is to push out the AM nap to 9.30 & cut it back to prevent them from catching up lost night sleep.  This is what I have done yet we are having no progress (yet).    We have been doing 1hr AM nap for around a month & in last 2 weeks have cut it back to 30mins.  Do I need to give it more time   Or are we never going to get a result if he is OT  

I decided to keep going with things today despite the even earlier WU & have done a really scary & probably VERY stupid thing & cut the AM nap to 20mins.  I feel like I have to give it a shot for a couple of days first, and if no improvements at all then I guess I should do what Sara suggested & drop the routine & allow him to catch up on his lost sleep for a few days.  Does that sound OK or is it a really bad idea

[Shiv52]

I agree with Sara.  I think you need to let him catch up on some sleep.  Plus if you are keeping bedtime consistent I probably wouldn't be cutting the am nap much because he is having a 13.5/14 hour day on not a lot of day sleep which am sure isn't helping the OT. 

I am really disappointed as the main advice for combatting EW is to push out the AM nap to 9.30 & cut it back to prevent them from catching up lost night sleep

But if he's having 4 hours A time is it still considered an extension of night sleep?

[clairebear79]

Hiya Shiv52 - thanks so much for your reply

We've battled on today but he is so so tired that we are going to do an earlier BT & then discuss what happens tomorrow.

I'm sorry I don't quite understand your point re the 4hr 1st A time?!!  Are you saying that I don't need to push the AM nap to 9.30?  For months he's been having his AM nap 8-8.30am (as he's so tired from the EW).  He seems to prefer around a 3hr 1st A time, but I've repeatedly been advised that it is too early in the day & it will just continue the EWing, & so I should push it out to nearer 9.30.  Hence what I have done.  Is that not the right thing to do?

Also on the 2-1 boards they are saying that its inevitable we will end up with v. long 13-14hr days as they transition.  yet I have always found that he does best if his days are much shorter - 13hrs absolute max.  I totally KNOW the long days plus the horrifically long 1st A is what's making him OT but I don't know how to sort out his EWing without doing that.

We are wondering if we'd be better sticking with 3hr 1st A time, 30min AM nap, 2.5hr 2nd A time, 2hr nap & 4.5hr final A time, keeping the day to 12.5hrs from whatever time he wakes.  Do you think that would be a better idea, rather than pushing his mornings so hard?  DH thinks we'd be better to at least keep with the routine to a degree, since we are getting great naps, but I am wondering whether we are best to 'throw it out the window' for a couple of days & let him sleep whatever, whenever until he's more caught up.  The biggest trouble I have is he never gives very good sleepy cues, so I ALWAYS miss the boat & he ends up OT if I follow his lead.  Or I am too scared to let him stay up & PD earlier then we get stupidly short UT naps all day.

I feel like we are in a TOTAL mess.

[Shiv52]

I'm sorry I don't quite understand your point re the 4hr 1st A time?!!  Are you saying that I don't need to push the AM nap to 9.30?

Sorry I guess I was asking you how the first nap could be considered an extension of the night sleep if he does such a good A time and why you are cutting the nap given that you are keeping a 7pm bedtime and having a long day?  I guess what i was wondering is would you not be better letting him have a longer nap?  This way you can keep a good A time after and then get to bedtime without so much OT and see does that help your wake up time. 

We are wondering if we'd be better sticking with 3hr 1st A time, 30min AM nap, 2.5hr 2nd A time, 2hr nap & 4.5hr final A time, keeping the day to 12.5hrs from whatever time he wakes.

Do you not think sticking to 12.5 A time will just keep the EW though? 

AM having a think so will be back x

[clairebear79]

Hiya - thanks for your reply Shiv

Ah I understand what you are saying now!  It has also been suggested on the 2-1 thread that instead of short am/long pm I try long am/short pm, b/c it isn't nice waking him after a tiny nap when he's done such a long A time.  I agree it IS awful. 

We have in the past followed cues for naps, and if left to his own devices he would take a long & early AM nap, then he would barely nap in the PM & got very OT by BT.  Although that was a couple of months ago now & he is older & might handle the longer A times better, so I guess its worth reconsidering.  I am a little reluctant due to our past experience & our current lifestyle - we have morning play groups we would miss if we were to switch.

The current situation is that he is ONLY doing such a great 1st A time b/c I am making him stay up until 9.30 b/c advice for chronic EW'ers seems to be to do short am/long pm & to make sure the nap is 9.30 at the earliest & short.  4hrs+ is not his usual AM A time.  If I followed his cues he'd be ready to go to bed around 3hrs A time in the AM. 

The reason I am cutting the nap further is b/c he's actually taking more day sleep on this routine than he was doing before, & his nights will never lengthen if I allow too much day sleep right?  I've had it suggested that if I keep the naps at set times (+/- 15mins), with the AM nap short at say 20mins & the PM nap at 2hrs, & BT at 7pm he should eventually sleep longer at night, b/c he is not given the opportunity to catch up in the day.  I'm giving this approach a try b/c I feel like I have exhausted all other avenues, but it is so so so hard.  Also I'm not entirely convinced it will work  , as if he's OT won't that prevent him sleeping longer at night b/c his night will be unsettled???

Do you not think sticking to 12.5 A time will just keep the EW though? 

 
Do you think I need to keep the day longer than 12.5hrs in order to combat the EW?  Is that b/c he just won't get enough A time otherwise??? 

As for today, we had planned to ditch what we'd been doing. except he woke & then fell back to sleep until 6ish.  So this meant the 1st A time wouldn't be so long.  So we stuck with it for another day.  Here it is:

NW: 4.30 - 5ish    (chattered for a while then back to sleep - think 5ish but I was dozing so can't be certain)
Wake: 6ish          (not exactly sure what time as I was dozing but think around 6am)
Nap:   9.45 - 10.05 (aim was 9.40 nap)
Nap:  12.30 - 2.00  (woke himself at 1.5hrs - not sure why - could have been woken by me going upstairs)
BT:    6.45            (slightly early due to early WU)

Total day = 12h 35 total naps = 1h 50

If his wake up is reasonable tomorrow we will carry on, if it is rubbish then I give up on pushing out the nap & cutting it short.  I think I will have no choice but to allow a long AM nap & see where it gets us.  Or is that one major change in routine that will totally confuse him???

[Shiv52]

Ok I think I get the reasoning now.

Total day = 12h 35 total naps = 1h 50

Is this about usual? I know at 10 months M was still having 2 x 1.5 hour naps and then we moved to 1 nap at 12 months so I'd have thought 1.50 isn't enough day sleep for 12h30 day?   Is he low sleep needs?

Quote from: Shiv52 on Today at 09:16:35 PM
Do you not think sticking to 12.5 A time will just keep the EW though? 
 
Do you think I need to keep the day longer than 12.5hrs in order to combat the EW?  Is that b/c he just won't get enough A time otherwise???

I have always stuck with a consistent bedtime.  DD1 never slept more than 11.5 hours ever.  11 hours generally before we switched to 1 nap.  So I knew that she would wake 11 hours after she fell asleep.  She didnt tack on lost day sleep to her night.  So in your case had I done a 6.45 bedtime I know she'd be up at 5.45 and thats not an EW if she had 11 hours sleep. KWIM?  So in our case I would have APed a later CN and got to normal bedtime or even slightly later bedtime to avoid the EW.  Does that make sense?

I think I'm confusing matter for you!  OK so what I'm asking is do you normally do a set bedtime or do you normally do bed 12.5 hours after waking? 

What is your ideal wake up time and bedtime?

[clairebear79]

Hiya

1h 50 day sleep is pretty low.  No its not normal for him.  He's been doing a pretty consistent 2hr pm nap so currently 2h 20/day. 

In fact a few days ago he did 2h 30.  He'd probably sleep 3hrs in the day if I let him, but then our nights are always short.  I thought 2-2.5hrs was pretty average for a 10 month old   Or is that low   I have no idea if he is low sleep needs or not.

DS's nights are totally inconsistent atm.  We were getting 11hrs nights a month or so ago, but rarely more.  But for the last month he's barely even sleeping 10.5hrs at night.  One night he'll do 10hrs & then next he'll do 11.  So up to now we've never done set BT.  But yes, we are doing a set BT now (give or take 15mins).  Though it isn't seeming to be making much difference!  We only did slightly earlier due to his PM nap being cut short yesterday at 1.5hrs instead of 2.  It is pretty impossible to AP anything in our house - so getting a CN is very unlikely!  He just wasn't ready to sleep before 6.30pm.
 
Ideal WU is 6-7am & BT 7pm.  I am totally fine if he wakes nearer 6 - I just don't like the 5's or 4's or 3's (& trust me we have had quite a few of those!)

He was asleep really quickly last night, & then woke up at 5.25 this morning.  So earlier than yesterday, but a solid 10h 40 sleep.  And that was on 1h 50 of naps.

I am totally lost with what is the right thing to do from here.  Do you think if I allow more day sleep his nights will extend?

I've an awful feeling nothing is going to change until we are on 1 nap, but how do I get there with all these early starts?  He'd have to do a 6hr A time before his nap.

[Shiv52]

Ok I see. I'd keep doing what you are doing for a bit longer. I guess you have to decide what he is likely to sleep at night and go from there though. If he's averaging 10.5 hours then may be you need to work from there? Because if 10.5 is the best you'll get out of him at the minute then you you need a later bedtime to make a 6am wake up a reality. KWIM?

So if he does 4 hours A time on wake up then a 30 minute nap then 2.5 hours a time?? Is that right? Could this A time bs lengthened any?  Obviously keep sticking to what you are doing for the minute until we see if there is a different plan that might change things.

How long have you been doing what you are?

[clairebear79]

We've been doing a 1hr AM nap for about a month.  But it wasn't giving us a consistent PM nap.  So over the last 2 weeks I have shortened his AM nap to 45mins for 5 days, then 30mins for 5 days & now 20mins (as we still have the EW).  Today is day 3 of 20mins.  We are getting good PM naps now (usually 2hrs)

So if he does 4 hours A time on wake up then a 30 minute nap then 2.5 hours a time?? Is that right? Could this A time bs lengthened any?

His A time from wake up isn't fixed at 4hrs.  He is doing a set nap of 9.40 - 10.00am.  So if he woke at 5am he'd do 4h 40, if he wakes at 6am its 3h 40 A time.

Its then followed by a 2.5hr A time, so his PM nap is 12.30 - 2.30.  Again a set nap.  After his 2hr PM nap he is doing 4.5hr A time to BT at 7pm.  I expect I could lengthen the 2nd A time a bit if the 1st A time was shorter eg 3hrs, but while it is 4hrs + I really don't want to push things. 

I suspect I am just going to have to stick at things for a few more days & see if his nights extend.  If still nothing then I need a change of plan.  I can't see that shortening his AM nap any more will help as it'll just cause more OT.  He is handling things really well I must admit.  He's clearly tired out, yet he's done a 4h 15 A time this morning with no crying.  I suspect we will be on 1 nap fairly soon.

[Shiv52]

I suspect I am just going to have to stick at things for a few more days & see if his nights extend

I think so.  Just so you know with out a doubt that its not working if it doesn't and hopefully in the meantime it will help. 

{{{{hugs hun}}}}

Keep me posted on how its going and we'll keep thinking xx

[clairebear79]

Hiya

Last couple of days have been like this:

Wake: 5.25
Nap:   9.40 - 10.00
Nap:   12.30 - 2.20   (woken by neighbours dog barking)
BT:     6.55

Wake: 5.45            (cried out at 3.45am & 5.20am but self settled)
Nap:   9.40 - 10.00
Nap:  12.40 - 2.40  (struggled to settle - PD at 12.20.  woke crying at 1h 25 & took 10mins to resettle)
BT:    7.00

The mornings are a struggle but the days are generally going OK, although I can see he is permanently tired.  He is really grumpy in the morning from 7.30 - 8.30 & I had crying & screaming while I showered & dressed this morning.  He's really upset when I wake him from his AM nap (understandably) but a snack usually cheers him up.  But the rest of the day he is blowing raspberries (tired sign) and tonight was rubbing his eyes just after 6pm.  He's thrashing & arching once he's had his bedtime bottle too - so he must be utterly shattered.

I really don't know where to go from here.  Do I just switch to long am/short pm?  It certainly would be kinder, but I would still have to push him to 4hrs or so 1st A time so we have a chance of making it through the day to a reasonable BT without OT setting in.  And then we have the joy or trying to get a CN out of him.  Or do I scrap everything & try & find the right A times to get 2 good naps from him, & start all over again.

Sometimes I feel like I'm not even sure if we are transitioning or if I'm just forcing the issue.  But then we have the constant EW so I just don't know!

[Shiv52]

Stick with it for a few more days hun. 

He got nearly 11 hours sleep last night so I am still confused as to how what you are doing is meant to stop the EW?   Sorry for being dense but is it that he will tack on lost day sleep to his night?  I would have thought if you banked on an 11 hour night you would need to make bedtime at least 7.30 so you could be sure to get at least a 6.15/6.30 wake up.