8 mo having horrible nws and naps are not good either - what is going on?

[*Kara*]

LOL! She doesn't sleep that much now   That was when she was little!  At 10 months, she still STTN for 10 hours and naps twice a day - 90 mins each time max.

Lisa - that CN can start to cause huge issues with STTN and NW around 5/6 months for many LO's. Could you post her typical sleep times now for naps and BT/wakeup as well as the average time and length of her night wakings and how you settle her back to sleep?  I will have a look for you

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, how are things going? We had a good run for about 2 weeks and I think. Now the A time game has started again. We were doing a rough 3-3h15-3h15 min day and he was sort of  having 2 naps at least one was 1.5hr and the other 1hr10 or 20 mins. And. Nights were HEAPS better.

Then 2 days ago he had  2 days of short pm napping and now we are back in a ut ot loop. I want to nip it in the bud this time. What A times are you doing now annette? And What do you reckon I should aim for next? Keep am still 3 hrs and just up the pm one? Or am as well? What are the typical A times for this age?

Hope all is going well with you ds an his routine!

[shresmummy]

Oh pooooh.. The same problem is back again. Short pm napping no matter what A time I try. He had an ew today at 5 am! But I did am nap around 8:55 and he slept till 10:35! But then was rubbing eyes lik crazy at 1:35 and foolishly iput him down thinking the long. Previous A time might have tired him out at 3 hrs. But he slept 35 mins. Is that ot or ut? Now it's going to be 4 hrs till bt and so the cycle continues! Sigh!

[*Kara*]

I would bet that was UT

[annette.xx]

hey dont have long but ive hit the same kind of wall and am now doing ...

3hrs A
1hour max capped nap
3hrs 15 A time
1hour 30 max capped nap
3hrs 30 A time
bed

ive discovered that am nap anything over an hour and pm nap goes dodgy and also bedtime anything over 1hr 30 nap then that goes dodgy too!!

im actually thinking im getting near to needing to cap the am nap to 45 mins - this is the time when we need to really decide long am nap or long pm nap - im going long pm nap so I will just keep first A time at 3hrs (which he is OT at 3hrs already so shouldnt be too hard keeping him at that!)...

got to go but dont worry we will get through it again - these EW have been killing me!!

Annette.xx

[shresmummy]

Hey Annette, sorry to hear you are also having problems again! Sigh!

Actually we had a similar day to what you said was your routine today. We were out in the am so he had a short nap but then I did 3 hr A time and he slept 1h25 min oddly. Woke up crying but was cranky by 5 anyway I pushed on and did bt at 6.

Had a few nws but overall not too bad.

I am scared to cut the am nap cos it's the only reliable nap! So you reckon we are at the nap cutting stage already?

[annette.xx]

hey Priya

cant beleive we are online at the same time! I never manage that!!

yeah I think im definately in nap cutting territory although there are sooo many other options you dont have to go down the nap cutting route! Some mums just stretch all the As slowly and allow for 2 really decent naps which gives a longer day but better naps and better nightsleep ( I know Kara does this with great success from what ive seen - kind of makes me want to try it! -please share Kara!!)
Other mums stretch out all A times but then cap the pm nap and let it become the catnap and allow a nice long am nap - If you go with this option Ali one of the mods had a great routine going with her LO at this age and said it was easier doing long am to get to the one nap - she only ever had a few EW in her whole time!!..so maybe this is a good option too!!

Im trying short am nap cos I did it last time and it kind of fits in better with DD cos means we can all get out and when the am nap gets to 30 mins then I will do it in buggy everyday if I can so we can all have a long morning out - though my preference would definately be the long am nap cos like you said its such a great easy nap - really hate to cut it!

I had the night from hell last nite and im thinking it may be cos he is dropping sleep needs again - week 37 (which im in now) is a wonder week and major sleep regression time cos they drop alot of sleep a bit like the 4 month regression - I do beleive that the average sleep needs at 9 months is 13 - 14 hrs a drop from the 14 - 14.5hrs of 6 - 9 months - obviously they are all averages and its not an exact science but my guy is completely textbook in this respect - if the average drops then his drops bang on the same time - he is such a funny chap!!

I cut am to 45 mins today in light of last nights wakings - UT for sure cos they were all after midnight and then  every 1 1/2hr...he had calpol for teething, was warm enough no new foods - just a perfect day of napping and perfect settling at bedtime!!!

Annette.xx

[*Kara*]

Some mums just stretch all the As slowly and allow for 2 really decent naps which gives a longer day but better naps and better nightsleep ( I know Kara does this with great success from what ive seen - kind of makes me want to try it! -please share Kara!!)

Yes, I do this   It's kinda harsh, and leads to a week of hell, but it works!  Bear in mind that I have a textbook/angel baby so she does fairly well with OT until it is quite bad... and by then, she has usually sorted things out   I can easily push her 2-3 days before it catches up to us and backfires horribly

Also, I don't push A times slowly.  I just do it one day - If my goal is a 30 min increase, I do whatever I have to do to get her as close as i can to that number... go for a walk to get the mail, do the laundry...whatever it takes.  I push her until she is beside herself and then put her down... this method will shift an A time in a couple of days   Since they are super exhausted when put down, they take a monster nap (unlike when only a little OT and they short nap on you).  These monster naps prevent OT buildup and get you through it quicker   Not very BW, but it works!

When I dropped the CN (at 5 months), I pushed DD to do a 3 hr A then a 2 hr nap, then a 3 hr A, then a 2 hr nap, then 4 hrs A to bed.  The kid slept through all night and crashed without a peep for every nap and BT.  This worked for a few months, then she started to shorten naps on her own, I set her naps to the times that they had been already and it still worked out great.

I had to start capping naps when she hit 8.5 months... her A times jumped again and she was taking huge naps... our days were way too long.  She has always loved her naps and kept her nights to 10-10.5 hrs until recently.    I experimented with short AM/long PM and the opposite... the best way to decide which to go with is to go with whichever will work easiest with your LO.  Mine is prone to early mornings (we did 3 months of 5am!), so BW would suggest short AM/long PM... she loves her AM nap and has always gone down easily for it... if one nap is gonna be a monster one on any given day, it will be her AM nap... so I am going with it!

If there is one thing I have learned, you do need to guide their sleep at times, but you do need to do the one thing Tracy really emphasizes and listen to what that baby is telling you they need as well.  If they need to have things against the grain, go with it... fighting to do it by the book will make it more difficult for both of you

This is our current sleep plan:

wake 650 ish
Nap 1020-1210
Nap 320/330-430
BT 8pm.

[shresmummy]

Hey Annette and Kara, hope you are having good weekends!

Annette, I also think my ds has dropped his sleep needs. I am still struggling to work out what the best approach to take is. Like you,i would also like to use am nap time to be out with dd so dont mind if he short naps. Not to mention preschool pickups. But it's such a shame cos that's his best nap.

But Kara like you our mornings also start fairly early, 6-6:15 ish. Right now he can sometimes do up to 1h40 mins for his am np although that is rare. He did that today but then by 3 hrs A time after he was screaming his head off tired as ever!??! Huh? I had no choice but to put him down at  3 h10 min. No surprise he  did 40 mins.

I am thinking since our day starts at 6 I might try and see what I get day but keep the first A time at 3 hrs. Because of preschool I can't keep stretching it and since he isn't messing about to go down,is it worth still doing 3 ?

To go with the long am short pm how long does the am nap have to be? 1.5 hr or longer? Then what should the A time after that be do you reckon? Then how short will the 2 nd nap be?

Sigh! I wonder if it will ever become easy! Dd is nap dropping now too! Fun fun! Two kids sleeps to juggle!

We will be away from Tuesday for week visiting family in Sydney, so I might not be able to check regularly. But I will try.

Maybe being on holiday will help sort out ds's A time?! Like it did with you Annette last time! Or possibly make it worse...yikes!

[shresmummy]

Hi Annette, I'm back from the holidays and just wanted to check in to see how things are with you and ds.

Would you believe he had such good nights while we were away? I think his A times were really pushed cos we couldn't always make it back home in time for naps or bt. But i muddled along somehow! but now that we are back the nws have started!

Today we did

Wake 6:05
Nap 9:05-10 (woke up himself after nearly 1hr
Nap 1:10-2:35 (woke himself)
Bt asleep by 6:35 (so that's nearly after 4 hrs). He only really showed tired signs around3h45

But we are having  nws every 45 mins. Each time he settles after about 10 mins.

What do you reckon? Seriously I am SO over these nws. But the good news (sort of) is that more often than not I am not feeding at 2 am. So he is sleeping better from midnight to 5, he wakes but settles with cuddle rather than a feed.

How is your routine these days? Hope your nights are good!

[annette.xx]

Hey there Priya!

im sooooo glad that you had great hols and great sleeping - the same thing always happens to me on hols - which makes me think our issues are always more UT than OT!!

I have figured out that me lil man needs at least 10hrs A time in his day or I am in for it at night time - take last night as an example I had a similar day to your day yesterday and I usually get a good 2hr pm nap out of him but yesterday just 1 hr 15 so I didnt dare do the full 3hrs 45 that I would usually do incase the OT monster got him and instead I got the UT monster (far worse!!) and he was up at 9.30/12/2/5/6 it was horrendous and im stupid cos I fed him back down cos I really do not have the energy for anything else at the mo!

my day fairly consistantly for last 2 wks has been 3HRSA/1 HOUR NAP/3 HRS 15 A/2HR NAP/3HRS 45 A/BED

and only 1 NW for a feed around 4am/5am

but now I think the first nap needs cutting to 45 cos he is struggling to go down for pm nap and is short napping some days!

Im still wondering whether I am doing the right thing with short am/long pm cos I know if I just pushed the morning A time that I would get a lovely long am nap and it would probably be a quicker transition to 1 nap but im also worried that If I did it that way that I would end up with pm nap refusal!

Annette.xx

[*Kara*]

Hey Annette - I have tried both the short AM and long AM methods... we are going with the long AM.  I have found that the best way to make the choice is to follow LO's cues with it... does LO prefer the AM nap or the PM nap?  Is bubs a horrible crab if you wake from a nap?  Which tends to be a longer nap if you let LO sleep as long as they like?

For us, DD has always gone down well for her AM nap as long as I get her A time right.  The PM can be a shorter nap for sure in this house... so I push her AM out as she needs it and she will nap close to 2 hrs for me.  The PM CN can be tough though - think back to the CN we all dealt with during the 3 nap phase - same deal but with a much more determined baby   Lots of moms resort to taking a drive for the last few weeks before dropping it!  It becomes quite difficult to get the CN.  We are starting our day around 615am now and first nap is at 1030am... until approx 1230pm.  The CN is 45 min if I can AP her for 415pm (rare), otherwise, she gets 30 mins from 5-530pm.  BT between 745/8pm.  It's really an awful stage!  Once she is able to be up until 1130am for her first nap, we can force her to drop the CN, tough it out for a week until she adjusts and her nap lengthens to 2.5 hrs.  Then, her nights should also stretch out a bit... and that would be the last push I need to move her nap to a 1230pm start time!  Seems so simple hey? 

[annette.xx]

wow Kara thanks so much for that info on what you are doing that is really helpful!

well he likes both naps the same and is generally really cranky if his pm nap is too short - he actually seems fine when I wake him early from his am nap so I think he will do better with a short am nap as per your fab analysis!!!

Annette.xx

[*Kara*]

Glad I could help!  I get a major crankypants if I wake from the AM nap... and then her PM is restless cause she gets a little OT... it's not a good scene at all!

She is just waking from her nice long AM now   Went down at 11am and it's 12:55pm.  CN around 5pm with any luck

[shresmummy]

That is some great info Kara! My lo sleeps best for his am nap but due to preschool pickup I can't let him sleep as long as he wants. Poo!

Annette, your day and mine seem almost identical, although I got myself into a bit of a pickle today. I think I put him down too soon for the pm nap. Plus I am not waking him up at the 1 hr mark for the am nap. He's doing that himself.

Today we had
Wake 6:15
Nap 9:15-10:15
Nap 1:30-2:20 (oh poo!)
Bt 6:05

O you think that pm nap was ut? Or ot? He was quite happy even when I took him in. But I think he was ot by bt. He woke 20 mins after bt but then slept for 2 hrs without nws. Strange?!

Annette, how did you stop the 10 pm feed and the 2 am one? Ds takes a full feed at that time still. He'd freak if I just refused it! And sometimes if he has had a very long A time before bed after a short pm nap he wakes around 9 pm for the feed.