Not interested in breakfast - *happy update pg 3*

[Hedgehog17]

Slightly better this morning - I ate my breakfast at the table and let DS do what he wanted - which was to watch Cbeebies on the sofa 

He showed no signs of hunger and didn't ask for food, so at 9.40am I switched off the TV and told him it was breakfast time! He ate almost 3/4 of a piece of (free from) bread & butter, most of an Ellas fruit & veg pouch, then had his milk. He asked for more milk but I didn't give him any, he got his vits 

Lunch at 12.30pm he wasn't hungry, but managed most of a veg & lentil pouch then a banana & blueberry pouch. He ate 1 & 3/4 biscuits but threw the last 1/4 so I told him lunch was over  He then asked for more biscuit but I said it was dirty as it had been on the floor 

I think if I hadn't dragged him to the table this morning he'd have happily gone without breakfast  He's only interested in playing and not at all in eating 

We just had a letter asking us to make an appointment for his 2 year review with the HVs... I have no idea what I'm going to say about his eating and they are bound to be down on me about his growth (or lack of) so I'm dreading this 

[barbaraz78]

Happy that today was better HH! Maybe a late breakfast is what he needs.
Try not to stress too much and go with the flow. Easier said than done, I know...

[TB9]

DS is totally happy to sit and do work, but once we went outside he didn't really do much without huge encouragement and certainly wasn't running around  If only he'd eat then he'd grow and have energy 

Do you think maybe if he was more physically active that he would eat more?  Maybe it isn't that he doesn't have energy because he doesn't eat much, maybe it's the other way around...he doesn't eat much because he doesn't use up the energy   Just a thought.

Re: Toys at the table, I don't keep the toys in DDs vision during meals, so they don't distract her.  I just have a couple of toys that are table appropriate, and I decide when she gets them.  If she asked for them instead of eating she certainly wouldn't get to play with them at the table.  I've pulled out books for her to look through if she's done with her meal too, just to keep her at the table so she understands that we stay sitting until everyone is done...maybe a book would keep him at the table so you could eat?

I wouldn't be too worried about him not eating at montessori.  DD wouldn't have eaten either.  If playgroup or something is in the middle of snack time I bring a car appropriate snack for her to eat after we leave because I know there is no chance she will eat with all the other stuff going on.

[clairebear79]

(((hugs))) HH it sounds like things are still tough in the eating department for you.  As you know we've had issues too (although at the other end of the day), so I know how stressed out it can make you feel.  I do have to say reading your posts there are a few things I would do:

I limited his water before breakfast, so he couldn't fill up on that

IIWY I would completely cut out the water before his breakfast.  I don't think limiting it is enough, even a small amount will fill up a small tummy & kill his appetite for food.  Same goes for offering drinks before other mealtimes.  Once he's eaten at least half his breakfast you could put it on the table, or perhaps wait until he has finished & just give him his milk.

WRT this:

Next I offered his veg pouch and he ate 3 or 4 spoonfuls, while playing with his (nearly empty) water cup.

and this:

He ate 1 small oaty bar, then took one bite of the other and flung it   I retrieved it and fed it to him in small bites!

Can I ask - are you spoon feeding him the veggies?  Do you usually spoon feed at breakfast or does he feed himself?  And does he usually feed himself at snacktime?

Do you think some of the resistance is because he wants to be a bit more grown up now   Perhaps giving him a little more independence with his meals i.e. self feeding, choosing what cereal he wants (from a choice of 2-3) etc would help.  Also where does he sit for his meals?  Recently we switched O from his highchair to a booster seat, & I think that's helped to make him feel grown up.  A kids table & chairs can also work really well.

I also really would consider completely cutting out the pouches fruit/veggie purees - I know you are so worried about him not eating enough but these are baby foods & he is a toddler hun.  You need to show him how to eat like a toddler.  This includes eating whole & solid foods & letting him eat by himself. 

I do talk to him, but then he starts chattering away and won't eat as he's too busy talking

One thing that has REALLY helped is to put his bowl & spoon infront of him, sit down with your breakfast too (so leading by example) & say nothing, just eat.  Don't talk to him about his food, don't say 'mmmm this is yummy' etc.  If he messes with his food, don't try to distract, coax or cajole him into eating it.  If he pushes it away I would take it away without question & that is the end of the meal. 

WRT his milk, I understand your reasons for wanting to keep offering it, but I still wonder if that is contributing to his overall lack of appetite.  I found with my DS we got to a point where he would refuse breakfast & cry for his milk (and get it) & it felt like he was using that as a substitute for his solids.  It was at that point we cut the morning bottle out.  After a few days he'd forgotten all about it & started to eat a much better breakfast.  If you do want to continue for now, I def would stay as you are & do solids first, then milk, or I think you'll just get a repeat of yesterday.

I hope that doesn't sound harsh.  I do think though if you want to see some real improvements, tough love is sometimes what's needed.  He will not starve.  He WILL eat if he is hungry enough.

xxx

[Papaya]

More hugs from me! I have to say, I have been thinking along similar lines to Claire. I don't really understand exactly what the pouches are that you're talking about but if those are purees I wonder if it's partly that they are a bit boring for him?? He might be more interested in whole foods that are the same, or at least look the same, as what you are having.

Does he use his own cutlery - maybe you could go shopping together and he could pick out a set of toddler cutlery himself, and a new plate and bowl, to give him a bit more ownership over the eating process?

Agree about having choices as well - F chooses which bib to wear, and between two toast spreads, two types of fruit etc. She often has a choice of snacks at morning/afternoon tea as well. If we are going out, I will sometimes give her the choice before we leave and she helps me to pack it in the bag.

xx

[Lemonthyme]

We just had a letter asking us to make an appointment for his 2 year review with the HVs... I have no idea what I'm going to say about his eating and they are bound to be down on me about his growth (or lack of) so I'm dreading this 

Don't worry!  HV are there to help you!  This is exactly what they're there for, not to judge you!  I'd keep a log of what he's eating and discuss it with her. 

I have to admit I'd not twigged he was around 2.  My son stopped eating purees at about 9 months.  Could you just offer what you're eating?  My son also just has milk first thing and before bed unless he's having an especially hungry day.

[Hedgehog17]

Yes, I'm afraid it's stage 1 baby purees I'm offering him 

We have tried giving him cereal in a bowl with a spoon. He will mash it around, drop it off the spoon, tip the bowl upside down, and fling the spoon to the floor. Anything but actually eat it  And this is dry cereal - he screws up his face in disgust if there's any milk in with it 

He will eat finger foods up to a point - this morning he ate some bread and butter (cut into cubes) again, but less than he ate yesterday 

Dinner he can eat with a fork (if he feels like it), yoghurt he can eat with a spoon (again if he feels like it). Often he'll say "Mama do" or "Dada do" as he's too lazy to feed himself 

We started with BLW at 6mo and he's always been given pieces of 'proper' food to chew, but it took him a very long time to work out how to do this without gagging (he was over 12mo)  Now he just can't be bothered to chew things properly - it's too much effort and so he tries to swallow things too soon, gags and spits them back out.

His high forceps delivery caused problems with his latch and I don't know if this is causing problems with his chewing now  He certainly hasn't ever managed to eat on a 'normal' baby timescale - he was about 16mo before he'd reliably eat a stage 2 pouch (mashed texture, from 7mo+). He still won't eat stage 3 (small lumps, from 10mo+).

If I gave him a bowl and spoon and let him get on with it, chances are it would end up being tipped all over the table and mashed around, while he proudly declares "I'm making a mess!"  Food given on a plate is frequently tipped off. Food given on the table is often flung. These are all problem usually seen in a much younger child, but he's never been sufficiently motivated by food to want to eat it instead of play with it. Hence I have resorted to spoon-feeding him purees and keeping up his milk intake to keep him alive 

His morning milk is only 4oz - most kids would have that much on cereal! It's being given after the meal. Re water - he begs for his cup when we go downstairs and cries for it if he's sat down and we attempt to give him food first 

Once the last 1/4 of his final molar has come through (it's taking its time..  ) I'll give offering only proper food a try and see how he goes. I'm also willing to cut down on his milk after his 2nd birthday. We need to do another dairy trial just after he turns 2yo as well, so we may be able to add cheese to his diet if all goes well as that would certainly help - most kids can't resist grated cheese 

I'm sorry I'm not coping with his eating issues very well - it's just that the spectre of his FTT at 3-6mo still haunts me 

[Lemonthyme]

Don't worry.  I think this is definitely worth talking through with your HV.  It could be to do with his previous issues it could be just that he's got used to the smooth stuff and 2 year olds are obstinate little monsters sometimes (my son is 2 and flits between being fabulous and plain evil!)  They are honestly there to help you and your worrying about all this proves you're a good mother.

[skatty]

(((hugs))) HH. I wonder if you should just put down a big plastic sheet under the high chair and let DS get on with it? All kids go through the stage of experimenting and playing with their food, it is a developmental stage and if they don't do it at 12 months or whatever they will do it whenever that stage arises  Does he like fruit? Maybe some a chopped up fruit salad would appeal. He is definitely heading for the age where he will assert his independance more and more and one way of doing this is with food because as you have seen, you cannot make a kid eat! What does DS like to eat for dinner? Breakfast doesn't have to traditional breakfast foods like toast and cereal, could he have leftovers if it is something he likes?

[TB9]

I think what everyone said about the booster seat at the table and big boy plates and utensils and moving away from the purees will make a huge difference.  Maybe he's acting like a baby (asking you to feed him, throwing food etc.) because the situation/environment/circumstances are the same as when he was a baby.  And, I agree with Katt, put some plastic down and let him go for it...within reason I think. 

What are the consequences if he throws his food?  I think you need to work on improving that behavior, because it's getting him exactly what he wants, to have you feed him or get down from the table to go play...

DD will sometimes throw her utensils if she is frustrated or if she wants our attention, so we take her utensil that she's thrown away from her (all her food she can eat with fingers anyway) and explain that even though we know she is frustrated or wants our attention we do not throw things at the table.  Can't really take his food away though can you   Maybe take it away temporarily to explain that you understand his feelings and why it's wrong to throw food and ask if he's ready to eat like a big boy?

I think it will make a huge difference to change the whole eating environment so that he is eating like a big kid, and I think you need to have it set in your mind that you expect him to eat like a big boy.  And don't be afraid to tell him what you expect him to do at mealtime, how you expect him to behave, and what you expect him to do with his food...When DDs behaviour is not what I expect for her age I let her know! 

[Hedgehog17]

Sigh  I tried!!

Lunch was wafer-thin chicken pieces - which he gobbled up, then asked for more  Then I squirted a fruit pouch into a bowl and gave it to him with a spoon. The bowl got upended - fruit puree all over the table 

So I scraped it back into the bowl and tried again, but he refused to pick up the spoon and would only eat it if I spoon-fed him  I asked him if he'd like to do the spoon, but he flapped his hands at me and said "Mama do the spoon!" 

After that he managed a couple of puffed multigrain snacks and the rest were swept off the table 

Yes, he's eating like a 12mo 

In terms of consequences, well, short of removing the food and giving it piece by piece, or taking him down from the table, there aren't any. I get him to help me clean up the floor but he thinks it's a fun game, and he'll do a bit, then it's "Mama do!" again...

I've been doing my best to encourage him to be civilised at the table and to feed himself for almost a year, and he's barely any better now than he was at the start 

Re our HVs, I'm afraid they had me in tears on many occasions when DS was a small baby, as they could only criticise and not help me with the fact that he wasn't gaining weight. They hadn't heard of reflux or MPI 

[Lemonthyme]

It might be easier to start with other foods than purees for self feeding.  My son got good at self feeding with foods like mashed potato because it sticks even if you turn it upside down. 

[Papaya]

It does sound like it would be investigating whether there's an underlying medical issue too. Frustrating that your HVs aren't any help - how about your GP?

[TB9]

I would say, if he can't use a spoon without upending the bowl and acting like he's a baby, then just give him finger foods, forget about the purees and stuff he needs a spoon for.  You said he ate his chicken well, so I'm sure he won't starve if you cut out the purees.  And set clear standards for what happens at the table and stick with it   You can go back to the spoon stuff when his behavior at the table is better. 

DD has been using a spoon since she was eating solids (she didn't even want me to spoon feed her rice cereal or purees at 7 months old) and she "mastered" it about 7months or so later...so it's not going to be something that he learns quickly, he'll need lots of practice but first I think he'll need to be at the point where he can behave appropriately with the spoon in his hand   How do you think he would manage with a fork?

[clairebear79]

More (((hugs))) I totally understand your worries, esp given his background & the FTT at 3-6months.  My health professionals weren't much use with the whole reflux & MPI thing either, there seems to be an awful lot of ignorance about it, which can make it so hard for us mummies.  Can I ask, where is he at now?  i.e. what does he weigh?  Has he put on any weight in the last year?  I was worried because my DS has only gained 1lb in the last year (25lb at age 2) & he has dropped down the centile charts from 91st to 25th centile but you know what, the HV wasn't worried at all.  She said she'd be more worried if he was still up at 91st.  It is totally normal for LO's appetites to decrease dramatically & for weight gain to slow as they become toddlers & they will balance it out so some days may eat very little & other days eat like a horse.

I def agree with the other ladies, I think you need to get some plastic sheeting down, give him his meal & let him loose on it.  Whether you start off with just finger food or whether you keep offering cutlery is up to you.  IIWY I'd probably give the spoon, expect there to be some mess & don't reprimand him for it unless he is deliberately throwing his food.  Like Tinkerbell says you need to set your stall out & show him whats expected & stick with the exact same approach over & over.  I also think you need to give it some time - its not going to change overnight, but if you take a whole new approach, with a bit of time, he will get there.

Often he'll say "Mama do" or "Dada do" as he's too lazy to feed himself 

If he asks to be spoon fed, rather than saying a straight 'no', I would say 'DS can do it'.  If he refuses to eat, I would probably take the meal away.  Again it is the harsh route, but I think you would only have to do this consistently for a relatively short time before he got the message that he's got to try to do it himself.

He will eat finger foods up to a point - this morning he ate some bread and butter (cut into cubes) again,

Rather than cutting it into cubes or bite size pieces, why not cut a slice of bread into quarters, so he's got a proper piece to get hold of.  I find with DS the bigger the better!

Lunch was wafer-thin chicken pieces - which he gobbled up, then asked for more   Then I squirted a fruit pouch into a bowl and gave it to him with a spoon. The bowl got upended - fruit puree all over the table 

I know my DS never got on with those stage 2 or 3 purees either, in fact as soon as the purees got lumpy (at around 8 months) he refused them so we went straight onto whole pieces of foods & he got on with that much better.  He ate the chicken pieces at lunch so that shows maybe its the way to go, right?

Does he eat whole pieces of fruit eg if you gave him an apple would he eat it?  Or a whole banana?  My DS has just learned how to peel a banana so he likes it if I give him it in the skin & he peels it & will eat it all.

Re water - he begs for his cup when we go downstairs and cries for it if he's sat down and we attempt to give him food first 

Ah, bless, it sounds very similar to what my DS used to do with his milk.  I still think giving water first will just fill him up.  Could you just stand firm & say you can have your drink after your breakfast, no matter if he cries or protests?  There I go with that tough love again.  Its not easy hun, but within just a few days you may find he no longer even asks for it.