4 mo starting night wakings

[Layla]

I think you might be too involved in the whole process, which might be stopping him from learning how to put himself to sleep. You mentioned he is happy to be in the cot but you are still there with your hand on his chest and you are shushing... you only do the shh/pat (or the shushing) if he's crying so just leave him in the cot and leave the room!

So this is what I do:
- about 20 mins before nap time I do a nappy change, read 1 book in the rocking chair and rock as we read, then close the blinds so its nice and dark and I put on the white noise machine, which has a range of classical music. I then put her in a sleep sac (gro bag) and walk around her room with the music on (soft), rubbing her back as I walk until the music  ends (it is only about 3-4 mins long) and at this stage she starts sucking her thumb and getting sleepy. When the song ends, I put her down in the cot and kiss her cheek and leave the room. Obviously now she just keeps sucking her thumb and goes to sleep but at the start when I would leave the room she would either start crying or lay there and then start crying or go to sleep. When she'd start crying, I would go to her and start the shhh/pat. I would shh/pat until she would mantra cry and then I would leave her. So I think if he's crying, don't be quick to pick him up but continue to shhh instead and there is usually a peak in crying before they start to calm down. Pu/pd can overstimulate them more and is usually the last thing to do. If it were me, I would do the windown routine and leave him alone and just stay away to see what he will do. He may very well continue to suck his thumb and put himself to sleep whereas if you're there, you might be keeping him up past his sleepy window. Once he's asleep, leave the room and see what he does on his own when he jolts himself. If he starts to cry, go to him and do the shh/pat again until he's sleepy and then leave. Him smiling at you and then playing with his feet, I would say sounds like he's being distracted by your presence and you don't need to be there if he's quiet or he's asleep.

Should I let him cry in the crib while I'm just saying sshh ore something else until he simply doesn't stop, if when?

Does he respond well to you patting him? I used to gently rub Jenny's thigh or rub her tummy in circular motion as I was shushing. Some babies hate the patting and some hate the shushing. If he doesn't like the patting, just do the shushing.....but is very different to the cry it out method because you are not leaving him to cry and sort things out on their own, you are there with him, teaching him how to go to sleep.

Let me know if any of that didn't make sense or you want me to clarify anything else.

[Layla]

How are you going Elga?

[elga]

Dear Layla,
thanks so much, you're lovely!
SORRY for the delayed answer: i've been on calls for 3 days, meaning that we had to move to the city for 4 nights, then back to the mountain again for the very last days... I was on line because i've never closed the webpage on my i-phone, but didn't have time to read/write to you. Sorry again.
I think you're right: i'm too much involved in this stuff. I'm not flexible at all: if it's lunch time, i tend to feed him pretty on time, when he shows first signs. If one says to put the baby down the minute he stops crying, i put him down the second sharply, and so on. Sometimes he needs more time and i didn't give him  enough, because i'm afraid to start a prop...
When i was at home (city), i've realized we have a very adaptable and lovely boy: he was not afraid to stay in the "new" house, nor to sleep in his "new" crib! No problem to be fed both by bottle and apple by dad/grandma/grandpa without me on his side (but it wasn't the first time, of course!), nor to get sleeping for the night  without me. My parents are not used to put him down awake, they simply prefer to roll him a bit, that works muche better, of course!! But me and hubby were consistent with what we have done before, and he seems to know the difference.
At home we have a very old crib, much norrower than the one we use in mountatin and he slept very well in it: he woke up twice, but that was because my dad simply put nappy wrong and he was completely wet! First time i didn't have time to change him because he immediately found my breast and stayed there for a while falling asleep with a very big sigh of relief, still it was 10 housr since he saw me! So cute! so i think that sleeping in anarrow place could be helpful: he can't move so much nor change position in the bed.
i don't know how is going: still wakes up during naps and nights, requiring assistance to be back to sleep again.
But 2 good news:
-  i now put him down when is completely awake and he does very well specially at the evening. He sometimes need an extra help, meaning that I need to pu once, settle and pd. But he's awake when i pd and he ca help hisself to fall asleep most of the time (it was the same even when we were in the city!)
- we had  two 53 minutes naps! More than 45, isn't it?? 
regarding nap breaking, he can put hisself back to sleep when we travel by car. why he can't doing the same at home?

I stopped DF the night before yesterday, because he refused it, turned his head away and cried. I'll see what happen without it. At now, he simply woke up at the same hour, more or lee 2.30 am. Maybe he dosen't reserve to be fed. Should i try to give him breastmilk earlier in the night, one night at 2 am, the night after 1.30 and so on??

I keep in touch with you, but i'm on call again 4th, 5th,6 th september....
love,
elga

[elga]

Dear Layla,
If you have time, can you have. Look at our nap unsuccess?
Ive posted yesterday and today naps.
can't understand if he is UT. when he was at home with my parents, they mever tried to put him back to sleep after he broke the nap, and nw were little less...
Yesterday :
 pd 1325, sleep at 1333, jolts after 38  min and full awake, play quiet for 17min, 3 min of crying,  PU (and 1 hr was now passed!) pd twice in about 20 min. Sleep again at 14.50. WU at 1505, tire, PU/pd and back to sleep from 15.10- 1540~
Should I had to stop to put him back to sleep at  1505?

31.08:
Wu at 8
PD at 944, fully awake and quiet; improved: can suck thumb to sooth hisself on his own
PU at 955( maybe not necessary)
PD at 958 staring, closed eyes as pd, sleep at 10. WU at 1028 (people shouting), but stayed down in silent
PU at 1045, PU/pd 2-3 times, pd at 1058, awake and calm, appear ently tire. PuPd till 1130-1140, then slept till 1230.

Pd at 1436, a bit fussy, PU and pd twice,  sleeping  at 1446.
1 single startle at 1506 (transition from 1st to2nd phase??) WU at 1512, playing till 1522, than talking, moving around and playing till 1532, then start crying.
Pu at 1537, pd and pu once more, pd at 1542 sleepy. WU in 1 min again, played and talked again, but stayed calm (when I PU, he closed his yeas really soon, so I assume he I was tired, not under tired!). Silence at 1550. Cried again at 1555, PU pd once, sleeping at 4.
Isn't this gap too much long? Do I need to stop before and bring him in another room and play for a while? He stayed on his own in the crib calm and without  looking for me for a long time;I can't think he really would have had to be up and play. He seemed to be tired.
I can't understand if he's OT or UT or simply need time to be accustomed to put himself back to sleep...
Moreover, there are only 20 minute before next feed!

[Layla]

Hi Elga, sorry I didn't reply earlier

How old is he now? It may be that he needs a little more A time?

[elga]

Hi  Layla,
He's now 5m and 1 w old!
He's a very active baby a, learning so much day after day. He can sit  unsupported for 1-2 minutes, roll on his tummy and grasp small things with 2 fingers! Yesterday he helped hisself with his little bottle full of water that what's just on the table.
But after 2 A hours, you can see a different child, really tired.
Anyway, he still wakes up more or less every 3 hr at night...

[Layla]

I would say maybe its time to give him a little bit more A time. Try an extra 10-15 mins for a few days to see if the naps will lengthen. My lo is about the same age as yours and she's doing approx 2.5-3hrs A time in the morning, around 2.5hrs in the afternoon and (depending on if she will take her catnap or not), her bedtime is about 2hrs after catnap and about 3 hrs if no catnap. You might find once he's sleeping a little better during the day his nights will improve.

[elga]

I'll start this afternoon and let you know how's going!
My neck is completely destroyed, but I guess you also know how much can hurt....

[elga]

Just one question: what if he breaks nap before the right time? I tru to resettle, but where do I start to count from? I mean if I pd at 930 and he wu at 1020 and then he stay awake, no matter what I do, then at what time does the next nap start from? He is supposed to be fed at 11, so next nap should be at 1310/13.15, doing 2.15 A.  Do I need to count from the E or from the breaking nap?..

[Layla]

If he wakes at 10.20 and is due for a feed at 11, you give him E when its due (11) and put him down for a nap around 2:15A time from the time he woke from nap, so around 12:40 (so in the cot by about 12.35 if it takes him 5 mins to fall asleep)

[elga]

Hi Layla,
Things're going better!
Yes, he's now able to sleep for at least 1hr every nap, sometimes he gets an extra 1 after I've resetted him, sometimes just 40min more. And he can stay up for 2.30 hrs without being exausting.
He still ask for catnap; I've tried once not to put him to sleep at 5/5.30, but then he was really. OT and the night went out as a nightmare.
Yesterday I've put him to sleep in his room and in his "big" crib, and he did it well: did my BT/nap routine, put him down awake, and needed to PU just once every time. the night was quite good: df at 10.30 (I've reintroduced it), WU at 3 to be fed, WU at 5 I don't know why, just had a quick pitstop at my breast, and then WU at 6.45 ready for the new day.
In the mean time, I've started solid at lunch and it's ok .
Any suggestion to rid of catnap? Should it be time to break it?
Love,
Elga

[Layla]

To get rid of the CN, he really needs to be able to stay awake for 3 hrs and for a 5mo (although it is not unheard of), the 3hr stretch may be too much. If he's taking the CN then continue offering it and if/when he starts fighting it, that may be time to start the transition to 2 naps. Some of the signs of needing to transition to 2 naps are: baby starts to wake up earlier and earlier in the day or having middle of the night wakings and staying awake; the catnap is pushed later and later, making bedtime later too.

Here is a link to the 3-2 nap transition. All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Glad things are looking up for you!

[elga]

Dear Layla,
Hi!
Happy to say that is going quite better!
My little boy has ufficially become an independent sleeper since 4-5 days:
With a very consistent routine for naps and night, I now just need to swaddle him and sit down on the sofa singing a very short song to have the baby's thumb sticked into his mouth, and a big smile depicted on his face! Than I can put him down awake, say "have a good time" and walk out of the room. He sometimes need an extra help, but that's not the rule for sure.
Re naps: we reached the very beautiful target of 1 hr through. Then he stays on his own for 5-10 min, babbling,and after he need to be hold into his bed for a while to go back to sleep. Sometimes he takes longer and i need to stay with him for 5-10 min, but he usually gets another full hr of sleep.
Re night: I moved him into his room without any problems.  We always challange the 4 am waking; that's still the major difficulty. I'm not able to get rid of it, maybe... No idea how to manage it..

Thanks for the help you're been giving me till now,
Elga

[Layla]

What a fantastic update Elga! You've done all the hard work and it looks like its finally paying off . With regards to the night waking at 4am - if this is the only time he is waking up, then it is possible he's waking out of hunger. If you feed him and put him back to bed, does he settle?

Also he might be starting to fight the catnap, which is the start of the 3-2 nap transition. How many naps is he taking now?

[elga]

Hi Layla,
I've thinken the 4 am waking is 'cause of hungry, but he usually settle himself after some shh time in my arms, and sometimes in his bed ( I've forgot to emotion you that now I've found a way to do pat-shh in his bed and it works well almost the times). Of course, if he find a breast, everything is quicker, but I don't feel he is really hungry.
I give him DF at 10.30 pm, then he usually wu somewhere between 1.30-2.30 to be bfed, and then he wu again at 4.18 exactly... One time I did wake to sleep at 3.45 am, and he slept till 6, but I has been just one time and maybe by chance. Anyway, I' m still doing it, hope for a change.
If I don't feed him at 4, then I wu at 5/5.30 am, pretending some milk, and then at 6.45/7 am for the new day.  I' m think that bf at 1.30 and then 4.30-5 are too close to eacheother to be for hungry... I must try with bottle at night for 2-3 days to give a chance. I came back to work, so he now eats solids at lunch and 3 pm and my milk supply might became necessary less...

Re catnap: he still prefer to have a 30 minutes one between 5 and 5.30, but I've notice that sometimes he doesn't know what to do and he tries to stay awake. If he still awake at 5.45-6 pm, then I prefer not to pd at all and simply start bedtime routine earlier. But in that case he is still OT and he wakes up 2 times between 8.30 and 10.30 pm... He probably needs some more practice...

My hubby practiced the way I have to put him to sleep and now this lovely LO doesn't cry anymore with him, pretending to be rolling... But I can't teach my parents to do the same: they don't trust he can go down by his own and so  they always fail when they try with my method. I must say that they always fail, no matter  the method, because he can sllep only for half an hour and he can't resettle after he wakes up.
I think kids are clever even when they don't bubble, and they perfectly know the difference between persons and circumstances. So he maybe know that with grandma and grandpa things are different and that he can obtain more nursing, but only with them!
He will go to the nursery in a couple of weeks and I am been asked by the teachers  the way he is going to bed, because they do exactly as the mum does. Moreover, I have to training them (and the child as well) for 15 days....  That's great, isn't it? do you think that, at nursery, i have to put him down and then simply walk away as I do at home, or maybe it's better to stay next to his new bed longer and gradually reduce the time needed to walk out the door?
Love,
Elga