Help needed with ASAP with today's EASY and how to beat major OT?

[afranklin]

Fingers crossed over here, that she'll sleep past five!!

[AMJ]

Hi Amanda,

so after i had her in the crib at 5:15pm (not 5:00 as in the last 2 days) she took a while to fall asleep and was out at 5:50. I guess this 15m made a big difference to her and she got OT/wasn't all caught up yet. At night she was awake from 2:30 to 3:30 but this awake period pushed her WU later. She woke up at 6:10ish maybe a bit earlier.

Today she had about 5hrs of morning A and then napped for 2.5hrs yey! I'm guessing that she would probably still need an early bedtime today but im not sure what time, 6/6:15/6:30? don't want to push her too much because of yesterday 15m making a big difference to her.

[AMJ]

So last night I had her in the crib at 5:45 and she was asleep by 6:15pm (13hr day). She had multiple short cries through the whole night and WU at 5:15am . 11hr but don't think it was very restful. Then 5hrs of morning A and short nap again-1hr45m?? I don't get it really. It's a vicious cycle. So now if I offer 10hr A BT she will be in the crib at 5pm. And we are back to shifting our day earlier and earlier with her days being 12/12.5hrs long and there is a very slight chance she will sleep 11.5hrs at night again. Honestly I don't understand my DD. I feel like I don't know her and can't help her with her sleep needs. This is just depressing. I can't take this EWUs anymore. It's been 16 long months.

Sorry for complaining!

P.S. Crib at 5:10pm and asleep by 5:40. Had few little cries and now we are officially  back to waking up at 4:45am .  She WU with a cry so this makes me think she couldn't resettle.

I thought that she went to bed at a good time and wasn't OT and she had 12.5hrs day. So if this is how long she needs not to get OT then why doesn't she sleep 11.5hrs? This has been happening since the beginning. What do I do? Stretch her day to 13hrs and get her OT or keep it at 12.5hrs and get earlier and earlier WU?

[AMJ]

Tonight is just a disaster. I'm at loss.
Here is our EASy

2days ago - 12.5hr day went to bed ok seemed like the right time. Slept 11hrs at night but still had multiple little cries through the whole night but they were really short.
WU 4:45am
Tired at 9am that's  4hrs15m of A
10:12 crib
10:15 S (2hrs20m) but seems like a crash sleep not really restorative

WU 12:35
I gave her a bath early and watched her carefully to see tired signs while she coloured but I couldn't see any at all. Then I layed her down to change her diaper and here she started to cry and rub her eyes. Too late, OT? Why can't I see her tired signs on time?
5:30 crib crying fussing
6:00 BT  OT again?

Multiple little cries again

2:30 let's out a cry and S
2:40 let's out a cry and S
The same thing happening until 3:10ish then S

3:40 WU
3:55 I went in to check her and swapped her diaper. Started crying when I left . Calmed down asap. Up for the day?
4:40 looks like S but again tossing and turning.
4:50 looked like S but up on all 4s again
5:00 cry
5:05 looked like S but awake
5:30 looked like S but WU
It's 6:00 now and she is still awake. And she looks like she won't go back to S anymore

She looked like she is trying to go back to sleep but can't. Then let's out a cry when she opes her eyes. Then lays quietly or may say something and then try again to S.

 What's going on with her? What do I do with her day? How do I go about her nap and BT? Could that be that she needs a shorter day (less then 13hrs) but then she doesn't sleep 11.5hrs every night.

Please help someone I want to sleep!

[AMJ]

An update
I kept her up till 12:20 pm(WU was at 3:40am) and she's been sleeping for 1hr20m so far. Might give a 7:30/8 BT and try to stick with it. I just wish I knew her right A times so I can plan her day

[afranklin]

Hi there,
I've been out of pocket for a while, family in town.

I've been depressed, exhausted about my LO sleep (and mine) too... I can really relate. I'm so sorry. It's terrible... and I get super emotional about it, feeling like failure, etc... I've had many tears over this. I had a mild consolation today-- an acquaintance of mine has one close to the same age and he's getting 10hrs in a 24 hr period!! And she doesn't seem to be too intent on trying to fix it. I try to give myself some credit for knowing about OT/UT issues, and *trying* to get him the sleep he needs. Some people don't know, or don't worry about it that much (which isn't entirely bad, I suppose! I worry too much).

I know you give her meds for pain, but the segments of frequent half-awake cries sounds like some kind of discomfort to me. Gas? I don't give my LO gas drops anymore, but sometimes I wonder if he gets gassy after beans and that could be a factor.

The multiple little cries where LO self-soothes back to sleep throughout the night seem to mean the last vestiges of OT working itself out, for my LO. He usually is good to go the next day, for a 'regular' schedule, if I know what that is.

Other things to consider... are you APing at all? Do you think she's waking up habitually? Several months ago I would have sworn my LO wasn't doing that, b/c he self-soothed for naps. But we had started rocking him to sleep in the night after a trip, instead of doing PU/PD again, and after months of him waking up 4+ times/night and me being dense, thinking it was only routine problems, we tried PU/PD in the night and boom. After one night of heart-wrenching crying, he slept through again. You might consider PU/PD (or PD, or WI/WO) for the EW. Tracey says 'Use PU/PD to send them back to sleep' like they will sail back softly into the night... if only it were like that.

Yeah, today hopefully she will crash for you. Maybe that's the way to go... she's had some good long nights, so the bulk of the OT is out hopefully, and now maybe it will work to strongly encourage a reasonable schedule.

Another thing I've done is find a series of days (usually it's only two) that worked... where he woke up after a good night at around the same time, and tried to use that as a schedule. If you have those records, it might be helpful. If you don't, don't worry. That knowledge alone did not 'fix' everything for me.

Oh, and if you can? Go to bed at 8pm, or 9pm! I started to do that out of desperation (when he was waking up at 5) and when I started to get more sleep, I felt better, more hopeful.

There are no tired signs until too late...it sucks. I've started writing down when I try to put him to bed, and how he acts, to try to learn what it means. Since I have been trying so early, ridiculously early, I've learned (I think) what UT protest looks like. Generally, if he lies down a lot while playing, I tend to think he's tired. Sometimes when I say, "Are you tired?" he'll shake his head, which means that I have elicited the tired head shake, not a 'no' (he doesn't shake his head for 'no'-- language delay). When he gets hyper, he's tired or OT.. though that one is hard to tell. Especially when Dada gets home at 6:15pm and that's really really exciting! I also try to gauge the frequency of his yawns... yawns near BT mean too late already for him.

I'd love to hear how it's going for you.

Amanda

[afranklin]

And this one: "So last night I had her in the crib at 5:45 and she was asleep by 6:15pm (13hr day). She had multiple short cries through the whole night and WU at 5:15am . 11hr but don't think it was very restful. Then 5hrs of morning A and short nap again-1hr45m?? "

Do you think that could have been UT? How did she fall asleep... messing around, crying, fast, slow? How did she wake up?

If he has a good night, I usually have the first A be in bed at 5:30.

A

[AMJ]

Hi Amanda.

I feel exactly the same.Too much worry and anxiety. Sometimes I do wish I didnt know as much as I do about her sleep or i wish I knew more so I could figure it out.

Hm discomfort? She is gassy - always but it never seems to bother her and her dr said that as long as it comes out it's all good, the problem would be if it didn't.

i also thought that those little cries are just left overs of OT since she is actually resettling but the next day if she has a full 13hrs day she is back to having lengthy NWs.

No, i don't AP at all. It doesnt work with her anymore even when i wanted it to work. Rocking makes her laugh. The only way she will fall asleep on the breast is if she is very very OT but that happens rarely.

Oh, I log her every day for the past year and i can't find anything that makes sense. If we have a good week and i follow it it still goes back to OT. Even our sleep consultant couldn't see a connection.

oh yeah, i hope for 8pm bt for myself today but it looks like it will be 9, still pretty good! thanks

We always struggled with her tired clues, and for nap i sometimes can tell but there were times when she looked tired and i put her for a nap but then had an under tired nap. For BT it's just impossible, she is always seems tired before dinner and she has an early diner but i still cant tell.
BTW i remember when she was on 3 or even 2 naps anything under 1.5 was UT nap including 45m, and 30m nap was OT. but now i feel like  don't know what's OT and what's UT.

our EASy today:
wu 3:40am
S 12:20pm (2hrs20m) wu crying
crib 7:30
BT 7:50
very long day and very OT. i am dreading the night and the WU 

with regards to your last message about morning A being 5hrs and UT nap, that's what i used to think too so i increased  her A to 5.5 and she would have few days of good nap then it will get shorter again then we went up to 6hrs and 6hrs15m and still the same happening. few days ago i watched for her tired signs before the nap and it looked like she was tired at 4:15 A, crazy but now im thinking maybe we switched to 1 nap too early but she was refusing the second nap all the time and if i would cap the first she would still refuse the second even after 30m of S.

with regards to how she falls asleep- I'm clueless what means what. Sometimes she talk very loud and laughs and then quiet, and then does it again, sometimes she just lays quietly, sometimes tossing and turning but she always plays with her hair. The only think i do know is that when she wake up crying she wasn't done sleeping and it was not a full nap for her. My husband and I both can't read her.

i have no clue how to plan her day. We always run 30ish m short. She seemed not OT two nights ago going for BT and that's after a good nap and 12.5hrs of the whole day. How can we fit in 24hrs?

thank you so very much for your support!

[afranklin]

Right... the patterns defy a 24hr cycle. I've seen some routines on here like this: WU 7-7:30, Nap: 12/12:30... etc..  And that's how the LOs get their varying sleep needs met from day to day, I suppose. I would be okay with that sort of schedule, except like you, 15m seems to make or break the day. And then the night... and then the next 3 nights.. etc. And also I never know when BT should be, b/c there are no tired signs, or he just so darn variable/sensitive to OT/UT.

Another routine I saw on here.. I saw it on 'What does your toddler's day look like?' I think... where someone had two different routines, a 3 day cycle, basically. That's also wonderful.. but I've no idea how you would even figure that out!!! But to know that that's possible might give you some ideas?

Mine will play in the crib even when he's OT... or go from UT to OT in the crib. In other words, he will play past the drowsy point, because he is so engaged in what he's doing. It's so discouraging. If he's doing that and I'm certain it's UT, I take him out and try again 15-30m later. That seems to work better than him just entertaining himself in the crib until he's OT.

I hope you can get some sleep, dear.

Amanda

[AMJ]

exactly! those dark 15min 

hm that's an idea, but you are right how do you figure our the 2 different routines? you got to be really good at reading your LO. I  actually started going through that post and some LOs her age are doing 5-6hrs of morning A. We've done that for some time but i'm thinking maybe that wasn't the problem, maybe the BT wasn't right that's why her nights were screwed up and therefore the nap eventually got screwed up, if that makes any sense.

For now i wish she would wake up at 6:00 because that's when my DH is up for work so I'm up anyways. So then her nap should be around 11am and BT 7pm, technically but she can't get to BT with out getting ot. Do you think I should try 6:30 BT?

Wow going from UT to OT while in the crib? Unbelievable! So how can you tell UT from OT. I mean I can see she is OT cause she gets loud and very hyper and excited but UT? Why is there even such a thing as UT?

Tonight wasn't too bad considering a very long yesterday. She was asleep at 7:50pm yesterday and up at 5:20am. Little cries in the early night which for sure indicate OT because they happened in the early night, not like last few days where she was having them throughout the whole night. Then she almost WU at 3:30 but resettled. This is what I don't get- I though she would be up for 1+hrs like in the last weeks but she didn't wake up, unless she was so tired. Maybe she is going throu OT/Ut cycle.

Where would you go from here? Do set nap for some time to get her WU a bit later or start following A right away? She is really OT after yesterday so will probably want an early BT to catch up so this will bring us back to early days.

[AMJ]

P.S. it just seems that she need a bit more sleep somewhere, either during her nap or at night. i think if she had a longer nap then she could have a 13hr day.

maybe try for something set like this for some time to get her to WU later and get through this horrible OT otherwise we will be back to 5/5:30pm bedtime and crazy early WU? And then after we are through this major OT go back to A times? what do you think?

wu 6:30/7;00
A 4.5hrs/5hrs
S 11:30
A 5.5hrs/6hrs (but it seems too long for her)
BT 7:30

and i know i said i would like her to wu at 6 but at least if I aim for 7 then there is room to give an early BT

[afranklin]

Hi Alla,
That makes perfect sense, bad night sleep messes up naps and vice versa!

I can't tell you how many times I've asked that: Why oh why does UT exist!?  I think much of what I have thought was UT was actually OT (again a case of knowing less perhaps being more helpful). Going from UT to OT in the crib is possible, so I've read on here, though I don't really understand. When I've put him to bed too early, he either plays (which he will also do when tired/OT), or he will protest like a crazy frustrated cry like: THIS IS INSANE MOM. DON'T DO THIS TO ME. When he's crying b/c he's tired/OT it's more fussy, whiny. It can be intense, but not that extreme frustrated sound.

That night: 7:50 BT to 5:20a WU.. that's 9.5 hours. That's really really OT, really short, in my experience. I think she didn't wake up for long b/c she was too tired to do so, for sure. That's how my LO has done, and the next night was 10, then I did early BT (9.5 A) and that's one of the times he pulled an 11.5 nt.

I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to keep doing the EBT for a while. This was my thinking in the past: I didn't care if he woke up at 5 or whatever (temporarily), if he was well-rested. If I could get any kind of stasis, and/or get him well-rested, then I could try to inch him later. I was afraid of earlier and earlier WU too, but somehow that didn't happen. He started sleeping later and later... not instantly, not completely predictably, but generally. I know you said you've been stuck in an EWU/EBT loop before, and of course we don't want that again... but I'm just wondering if you might be trying to get back to a normal routine too quickly?

I've done that so so many times!! I finally learned that it can take us several days to work out OT. We are still struggling tonight with a short nap yesterday and it's consequences last night, even though last night was 11.5 hrs (minus a 30m early even waking)!!! And because I didn't put him to bed early *enough* tonight, some OT remains or was added to the pile for later. We'll see!

That routine looks good and could possibly work, but I'm not certain about the long 2nd A... for mine, he would need a longer first A and shorter second... I generally shoot for 5.5 before nap, and 4:45 in bed after the nap (lately b/c we are struggling with OT, takes him 30m to settle-- or maybe it always will, no idea what's 'normal'). I know some like a longer first A, some like a longer second A. Hopefully your LO has made that clear to you!

What I want and think he might need/be able to do is:
WU 7:30
A 5.5
S 1-3
A 5.25+
S 8:15/8:30

What really happens:
Monday was a 10:45 OT night
WU 7a (crying)
S 12:22-2:40 (woke happy)
S 8 (7:30 in bed-- 10:15 Total A, some protest but I did PD and he started trying quickly-- that is, tucking in and sucking thumb)
This night was an 11:30 Nt, WU 7:30 on Tues. (Every night is not like this!!)

Let me know how it's going!

Amanda

[AMJ]

Hi Amanda

I am doubting myself all the time. The reason I am trying this crazy shift of a set 11:30 nap/7:30bt with her is because I'm hoping to recreate a situation on the day we had to fly somewhere and we flew quiet a lot of times. During the travel day she only usually naps 30/40m and has a very long day, then I give her a set nap/BT and try to adjust her to a new time one. I've never done it before to shift her day forward without actually going somewhere but that day when she was awake at 3:40 am and ended up with a very long day, I hope for that day to be just like a flight day the only difference is that she napped for 2hrs40m instead of 30/40m. It usually takes her at least a week to get used to the new time and start sleeping in later but now I'm panicking because tonight she had another 9.5hr night with a 35m of NW. I'm not sure if this is going to work anymore.

I was told before that when you start a set nap/BT the OT gets really bad but then it starts to work in you favour. I'm hoping for this to happen. DH says to give her 1 day of EBT to help her catch up a bit but I know that not nearly enough because she is beyond OT plus if she catches up a bit it might ruin the whole idea of a set times and OT working in our favor.

Yeah I think you are right and the last A would be too long for her. She used to have a longer morning A before 2-1 transition but since then everything is upside down.

Your day looks really good even on the bad day wow, I'm really happy that you found a way or at least a better way, honestly really happy for you!

Thank you for sticking with us!

[AMJ]

Oh agrrrrr now I'm panicking and thinking of an early 5pm BT.

P.S. I think this is as bad as it could get!? I got her in the crib at 5:00 and she started fricking out right away so I went in and had to stay with her there to calm her down. She just couldn't settle at all. I tried rubbing her head I even climes in the crib with her and breast fed her. She calmed down but still couldn't fall asleep till 6:30pm.

I think I will try 2 naps tomorrow just to try and catch her up. I'm scared lol

[AMJ]

Hi

It's just getting worse and worse. EBT doesn't really work because dd is taking. 1-1.5hrs to fall asleep( I had her in the crib at 4:45 PM ridiculous !) and lengthy NW are back. I didn't try 2 naps yet cause previously they did more bad then good but I don't know what else to do.

She is so OT that she bumps into thing all day long. I think she is ready for a nap after couple of hrs of A.