Help needed with ASAP with today's EASY and how to beat major OT?

[AMJ]

Hi everyone.

I am back here with a similar problem as before. We were on a set nap 11am, 7:00 BT but after a good week or so the nap would get shorter so would the nights. So I tried EBT,I've tried  moving the nap to 11:30 and even 12 to get a later WU (it's between 5-6 am , 6 rarely) and a better nap which would give us 2hrs nap for some time but again the nap and night would start to get shorter and shorter and DD would get more and more OT. Then I tried following A times of 5hrs, 5.5hrs even 6hrs and at first we would get a good 2hr nap but again slowly the nap would get shorter so would the nights and OT would accumulate. I tried following the previous advice by sticking to the same nap time but giving an early BT which would somewhat work after a couple of days but then the new EBT becomes the normal BT and the OT creeps in again. I tried moving the BT back to 7 but that would just cause DD longer to fall asleep and short nights.
 
Also for the past weeks or so we've been having multiple early night cries where she would resettle on her own right away but then also she would have over 1hr WU during the night were she would either chat or just lay quietly or look like she is falling asleep but then let out few cries because she can't.

She is teething  but I give her meds.

Does this ever get better and do they ever stop getting OT which effects their sleep so much? DD is not good at catching up.

Thanks in advance


P. S. Also hoping to get a quick advice on what to do today with her nap and BT. She had a horrible night- multiple cries in the early night then awake from 11:35 PM to 1:00am then awake again at 2:30 ish and here in not sure how long she was awake and how long she actually slept because she would get quiet then toss and turn and make whining noises for very long time( probably until 4:00 ish Am). The awake at 4:50am (BT was at 6:15pm)
Thanks so much

[AMJ]

So I got her down for a nap at 10:55am and she was awake at 11:33am. 38m nap? Omg. It's just getting worse and worse.

[afranklin]

Hello dear,
I'm not one of the experts, but here's my two cents. My babe is OT kind of all the time. I tried set naps, and he was waking earlier and earlier, too. This is what was happening with him: The first A was getting longer and longer, up to 6 hrs (at 18mos old) and he would crash nap just fine, but then I would wake him after 2 hrs. This was to keep day sleep from robbing night sleep, but by BT he was always OT. No matter what time I put him to bed. That first A and capped nap just did him in, and it was a vicious cycle b/c he would *keep* waking earlier and earlier b/c of OT.

When he was really, really OT, he would wake up from the nap before 2 hrs. For the longest time I thought he was UT, not OT.

So I stopped the set naps, and refocused on A time. When I kept the first A to 5.5, he was much more restored for that 2 hour nap, and BT was easier.

The other thing: when a night is really really bad (10.5 or less), I put him to bed at the 10 total A mark, or even 9:30A. He still takes forever to go to sleep, shuffling for 30m or more if he's extremely OT, but when he finally does go to sleep, his total A is small enough for him to actually work out the OT. It sounds like you've tried this, and it shifted the sched early. Sadly, I'm not sure what to say about that. Sounds like me: constantly swinging between UT and OT, and the 'sweet spot' is so incredibly small, it's impossible to find it.

Best regards,
Amanda

[AMJ]

Hi Amanda.

Thanks so much for your reply! Our LOs are very alike it seems. Whatever you are describing with your LO is exactly what is happening with DD. It's a vicious cycle.

I will try to go back to A times but how do I do it with such an early WU? It seems that an early nap would reinforce the EWU.

Oh wow 10hr total A, that's dangerous! We've been there and  got to 4/4:30 am consistent WUs. For example today she was up at 4:50am then 6hrs of A and after a broken down nap wich ended at 12:24pm her BT would need to be 4:30pm.

How did your LOs day look? Example WU 6am, S 11:30-1:30, BT 6?

Thanks so much!

[afranklin]

Hi there,
Well, it takes a few days usu. to shift to a normal WU time. (Not that I have it all figured out AT ALL, but I think I can pretty well get him out of the OT hole faster than I used to.) I'm not quite sure how we got from 5:30 OT EW to me having to wake him up at 7:40. Some of it is he just plain crashed, and another bit b/c he's getting older and more resilient. But things really really did get better after I shortened that first A.

Your sample sched looks about right...

The thing I've found about putting to bed super early, is if they are really OT, it takes them forever to actually fall asleep. So that adds to the A time.

Here's an example:
10hr night. No WUs, but I've found that 10hrs is definitely an OT EW. I figure he was too exhausted to wake up and cry.
6:45am, I resettled and he snoozed to 7 (I don't count this as sleep).
12pm in bed, 2p I woke him.
6:25pm in bed without much fuss or objections, he started trying to settle quickly, just needed some reassurance. He shuffled around for almost an hour, falling asleep at 7:15.
The total A was 10:25. He did an 11:30 nt that night. So he woke up at 6:45 still the next morning, but at least he was well rested and I could work with that (in theory).


Another thought... I hope it's not horrible to suggest this.. for a 4:30am WU (that's so so crazy--I'm sorry!), maybe it's better to stick to the schedule a bit and just let DD crash it out. I've never done this on purpose, but on accident plenty of times. I've wondered about doing it on purpose, though. By crash it out, I mean where they get so very very tired they sleep for 11:30 or so at night. DS does that if his naps are really short. Mind you: that long night does NOT mean they are all caught up. There's still lingering OT to wrangle.

Yet another thought... I've tried going back to two naps before when he woke up super duper early. It was a disaster. But maybe it would work for you. However you used to do it might work.. to get her to a reasonable BT. It was a disaster for me b/c he still needed very very much less A time than he got that day, so I guess I suggest not to assume that with 2 naps they can get to their normal BT, it will still be too much.

In other words, it's all a big, horribly unfun experiment. I wish they had little tired meters.

Amanda

[AMJ]

hi Amanda,
I would most likely have to aim for a 13hr day because DD does a 11 hr night at most. so BT would need to be at 7 if I want a 6 am WU.

so yesterday i had her in the crib at 5 pm(crazy risky) and she was asleep at 5;30pm. She had a few little cries in the early night but otherwise she slept through!!!!!! Finally. She WU at 5 am but at least Im happy that it was an 11.5hrs night with out lengthy awake periods.

If I follow the A and give her 5.5 hrs then her nap would need to be at 10.30am. What BT would you go with then if the nap is 2hrs+ and if the nap is less then 2 hrs? I am scarred of shifting the day so early

With regards to sticking to a schedule for a bit, do you mean a set nap/BT just to get a better WU?

With regards to a second nap-she won't take it even if she had a very short nap. I tried putting her in a stroller and in the car but no luck.

I really like your little trick with a total 9.5/10hr A if the night was less then 10.5hrs. If I understand correctly you do this because your DS sleeps 12hrs on a regular day? What A would you suggest for us then if DD sleeps 11hrs at most? Also do you also go with 9.5/10hr total A if the nap is short?

Thanks

Alla

[AMJ]

P. S. Today she fell asleep for her nap at 10:20am (WU at 5:00am) but she was already OT way before the nap. She WU at 12:10pm so her nap was 1hr50m, better then yesterday but still an OT nap. What time would you suggest to have her in the crib and asleep by?

Thanks

[afranklin]

Hey Alla,
That is SO AWESOME that she slept better and so long! And a bit later morning WU than the day before, right? Yay.

So, on that magical day where I put him in bed at the 9:35A mark and he slept 11.5 hours, the following night was a mess. The day after the long night was 11A (or maybe it was more, I'm not sure) and it was far too much, plus a crying fit may have added to the adrenaline/cortisol and made him even more OT.

Since her nap was still OT, it might be worth a try to put her to bed at 5pm again. Or maybe just a hair later... 5:15? I would guess 5:30 at the latest, though that might even be too late, that would be going to bed at 10:40 A, and if it takes her 30m to settle, it might be too much. At least, it has been for mine in a similar situation.

If it works, it may indeed mean she only sleeps 11 hrs, and wakes up before 5.. yikes. But it would be a better-rested 11 hrs, and then maybe you can work her later over the course of a few days, once she's got the OT out.

Yes, that idea about facilitating a crash on purpose would mean sticking close to set nap and BT which would likely mean far too much A, in hopes she would crash. Like I said, I've never tried it on purpose, it just happens sometimes when he's OT. I'm not sure how to determine how much would make a crash, and how much would be utter catastrophe, creating an 8 hour night or something. It's probably a last resort sort of thing.. at least for me... but I suppose that's what a lot of people do: stick to the schedule and wait for the LO to fall into it. But I think some LOs take longer to fall into it that way than others, I think mine is one that doesn't recover or make up sleep as well, so not my first choice for him.

My DS tends to like 13 hours in a day, I think. But when extremely OT, he'll do 11:30+ hr nights, given the chance. So the 9.5 A BT has worked after a 10hr night (preceded by weeks and weeks of nightly OT), and 10 A BT has worked after a 10.5 nt. Not every time, unfortunately, but frequently.

If the nap is short.. say 1.5 or less, or a broken/who-knows-how-long-he-actually-slept, or if he wakes up screaming...   I've done 10:35A BT (he fell asleep at 10:55) and that night was 11:40 with some short WU. But I think that was a crash night, not as restorative as it would have been with a shorter A. I've also tried 9:45A in bed, and I think that was too late, too OT to settle already... so yeah: short/broken naps = 10A BT or less, I think.

I can finally attest that it does get better (knock on wood). *Just* this week, LO is defying my meticulous records and sleeping on in the morning despite an expected OT EW. He's 19mos.

Let me know how it goes tonight!!

Amanda

[AMJ]

Amanda, thanks very much for responding. I managed to get her in the crib at 5:00 pm and she was asleep by 5:20/25 but she definitely was OT even earlier. I am really hoping that by some miracle i would be lucky enough to get another 11.5+hrs night!

What would you do with her nap tomorrow? Let's say if she wakes at 5:00am or even earlier, what time would you offer the nap at?

In our situation, when would you start(i mean tomorrow or in few more days) and how would you move her day later?

Also thank you for explaining everything in detail, it really helps.



P.S. She WU at 4:55am but had another great 11.5hr night. I am feeling lucky! Just wondering now if she needs 12.5hrs day instead of 13hrs or are these long 11.5hrs nights are this long because of her needing to catch up. although previously 12.5hrs nights shifted her day earlier and now with already such an early WU it is very dangerous to try it

[afranklin]

Another 11.5 night!!! yay!!

So you probably can shift her a little later... especially if the nap goes well. I wouldn't push more than 15m or so...?  But maybe after a couple of great nights she can tolerate a bigger push. It's SO HARD to tell.

I have yet to figure out if having a longer than 2 hour nap delays BT AND WU, or just delays BT and makes for an earlier WU (shorter night). But that's another one for the experiment, is to try a little longer nap (if she will) to stretch her to a later BT. I rarely do more than 2:15.

Does she give any tired signs? Mine shakes his head, and that's about it. If he does, I know he needs an early BT. Yawns near BT mean it's too late already. And of course, hyper means OT. I was thinking if she can give you a sign, that would help determine how much you can push her today.

Amanda

[afranklin]

Oh, and the 11.5 nights are probably catch up, not normal. That's my cautious guess...

I would do the nap at 5:30A, and then try BT at the 10:15A mark, perhaps.
Amanda

[AMJ]

hey Amanda,

just noticed you are here. I had her in the crib at 10;00am for the nap and she was already OT, took a bit longer to fall asleep but napped for 2hrs15m, woke up whining so i think she probably needed more S

so do you push the day by only pushing the BT or the nap as well. I was told before here that the nap needs to be pushed as well. But according to today it seems that 5.5 of morning A is too much for her or maybe it's because she is still OT.

She usually doesn't show tired signals until it's too late which makes it really hard to find that perfect time

[afranklin]

Don't you HATE the no tired signs!!?

I don't push the nap past 5:30 A if we are in OT mode, but pushing BT by a little seems to work better for me. Lately (past few days) LO has been playing in crib before the nap, so he's ready for more morning A, and clearly having some good nights despite the BT drama.

Sounds like she's catching up! Did she wake up on her own from the nap or did you wake her? I agree, whining probably means she still OT. How old is she?

Amanda

[AMJ]

Oh yes I do hate the no tired signs, that's how we always get in trouble   

She WU on her own from the nap. I never wake her. A while back I used to wake her  but it never did her any good plus our sleep adviser told us that it's very bad for them because it disturbs their natural sleep pattern and she've seen some bad consequences. 

It seems like she is catching up but now I need to somehow account that nights will start to get shorter (not 11.5hrs but 11hrs) and that means that  if I stick to the same BT as now (5:00in the crib, asleep by 5:15/5:30pm)her WU is going to be around 4:15/4:30am. But I also need to try not to get her OT before BT if I start to push it later.
It seems like after we catch up on sleep she has a few days/a week of great sleep but then the OT builds up again and by the time I start to try pushing the day later it gets worse and worse.

She is 16months old.

I am really happy about what you said that it gets better! I hope this would be the case for us and I hope that if I stick to you method it will help us her out of OT faster.

[AMJ]

P.S.
I just looked at my log for the past 3 days and her A before getting her in the crib for BT wasn't really that short.
On the first day when we spoke Amanda her Total A was 11hrs but 10.5hrs before I laid her in the crib but it was 1hr earlier then for the past while (5pm not 6pm) and her night was 11.5hrs. Her day was 12hrs40m long.

On the second day her total A was 10hrs30m but 10hrs10/15m before in the crib and her night was 11.5hrs long. Her day was 12hrs20m long.

Today her total A was 10hrs40m but 10hr5m before laid in the crib so actually the shortest. Her day ended up being 13hrs long.  I put her in the crib at 5:15pm(not 5pm like in the past 2days)but she fell asleep at 5:50pm. Not exactly sure if she was OT because she definitely looked tired. But he also had the longest nap today.