Nap troubles- trying not to mess up NS too!

[MommaStorms]

I've been over on the props board but haven't gotten a response in a week or more. So sorry to repost.

DS is 3.5 months. 15 1/2 weeks. I have always been able to lay him down awake and him fall asleep on his own. He is swaddled w paci. He's starting to roll front to back so swaddle is going to need to go soon but he's been OT so, well you know how that goes. I don't know if I need schedule adjustments or it's just developmental. Until about a month ago he was taking beautiful 2 hour naps all day and night sleep was great too. But now...

Typical
WU 7:30ish
E 7:30
A
S 9-11 (but the past 2 days I've heard him wake up and mantra cry for about 15min and then he goes back to sleep)

E 11
A
S 12:30-1:15 give or take! He doesn't do the same mantra cry, he is mad, unless I'm in his room bracing him. If I so that then sometimes I can extend his nap and we go on as normal having two 1.5-2hr naps. But I am pretty much having to hold him until the end otherwise it is only 45 minutes. (Yesterday was)

E 2/2:30
A
S 4-4:45 this nap is probably the worst bc this is the busiest time of day for me. Get dinner ready, about had it with my 2.5 year old, cleaning up the house before DH gets home and thinks I've done nothing all day    I've tried to just let him have a swing nap, he still wakes up. I can't wear him bc I'm cooking and I don't feel like that's safe. And I just can't go in his room and hold him for an hour so he can get through his nap. It's ok for nap 2 bc usually his sister is napping (although her naps really should be capped at 30min but I've just been letting her sleep so I can deal with him and having late nights with her)

BT use to be great but about the past week he wakes up 45 minutes after madder than a wet hen, I usually end up having to nurse to just get him to calm down. And then he'll go back to bed.

Yesterday he  ended up with  one  2 hr nap and  three 45 minute naps totaling 13 hrs of sleep for the day.

I know that around this time  they start having transition issues  but nap 1 (until a couple days ago) and night sleep have been great .

So here is my other thought, are these typical A times truly based on how many months old they are or weeks? He is almost 16 weeks so that is like 4 months which would put him at A time like 2 hours. But he is 3 months old so I'm doing 1.5hr A times.

Any thoughts? Please? 

[newkidontheblock]

Hi hun. Sorry that you did not get a reply on the props board. Let me see if I can help you out here.

First and foremost -- 3-4 months is a horrible time for sleep IMO. There is a growth spurt & a long & difficult wonder week, so be prepared for all kinds of shenanigans:p

are these typical A times truly based on how many months old they are or weeks?

Let me answer this first. These A times are a general guideline, not a hard & fast rule. In fact, looking at your routine, my first thought was that he probably needs a bump in A times. He might not need too much added before nap 1 but I think you could stretch it a bit before the pm nap as he seems UT after his long first nap.

Basically what I see happening is that after nap 1, he is UT for nap 2 & so does a short nap. Then he is OT as the day progresses. A clear sign if this is wakings soon after bedtime. They have always meant OT for us.

What I would suggest is to increase his A times, and aim for a routine with 2 naps or 1.5-2 hours and keep nap 3 as a CN, which would work for you and your family, right? And then, pull bedtime forward for a while to compensate, shortening your day & keeping OT at bay. In some time, he will properly transition to longer As, and then you can push BT back to normal. How does that sound?

[MommaStorms]

Thank you so much for your reply  I feel like sometimes I do know the answer I just need to hear it from someone else. Yesterday was such a mess, but I was able to APOP one 2 hour nap. It made bedtime late, he handled about an hour and 40 minutes until his little eyes were red and I knew it was time! He fussed a little at the 45 minute mark but he fell back to sleep. I let him sleep late this morning. I did an hour and 40 minute A time and he took a 2.5 hour nap. I guess I probably should have woken him up at 2 hours but I was getting lunch ready so it kinda crazy time. Now we're having A time... Just waiting for this nap. I'm trying not to be nervous, but I am!!! He seems tired and it's 1hr 10 minutes in... I'm gonna try to hold him off probably 40-45 more minutes  trying not to over stimulate!!!

Thank you again!!

[newkidontheblock]

You're welcome, honey. Good luck:)

[MommaStorms]

yesterday was great! Today... I thought a liiiittle extra A in the morning just 5 more minutes... Didn't work out, it seems like once we have 1 bad nap the day is shot. 

[newkidontheblock]

The first nap does set the tone for the day (with my DD, at least). But I always found that if I could get that catnap, then bedtime would be fine irrespective of crappy naps. Once you figure out how much A to reduce before the next nap to avoid him getting OT, it shouldn't be too bad.

[MommaStorms]

Still struggling.
Yesterday:
WU 8:30
E 8:35
S 10:25-12 he fussed for a few min at 30 min

E 12:10
S 1:55-3:20 woke up 45 min in replaced binkie

E 3:20
S 5:20-6:20? Cried @ 30 min binkie then @ about 1 hr he wouldn't stop crying

E 6:45
A bath
E 8:15
S 8:30 -fussed at about an hr in but dozed back off
DF 10

Fussing around 2:30, his swaddle was loose. I wrapped him back up he wouldn't settle. I rocked his bassinet for a long time, didn't settle. Finally I brought him in bed with me and held him! I think about 3:45 he was starting to settle. He was wiggling again about 7. This morning

E 7:10
S 8:55-9:40!!! He still seems tired but I can't do anything for him. I have DD and baby sitting so I have two 2 year olds. Can't leave them alone for long!

I wish I could just watch for his cues but he always seems tired to me about 1hr 15min of A.
I feel like if I had the right A time he would transition bc he falls asleep on his own.  Not sure why something works one day but not the next 

[newkidontheblock]

S 8:30 -fussed at about an hr in but dozed back off

I would say this indicated that was a tad OT. Not much otherwise he would have needed a resettle or woken crying but just something to keep in mind.

I wrapped him back up he wouldn't settle. I rocked his bassinet for a long time, didn't settle. Finally I brought him in bed with me and held him! I think about 3:45 he was starting to settle.

What about a feed?

Your routine seems to have changed, right? Previously the CN was around 4.30 but here you've posted a one hour nap from 5.20. I would suggest capping that nap in 30/45 mins and then moving on to BT.

[MommaStorms]

This morning I went with a 1hr 40 min A time: he took a perfect 1.5hr nap.
I tried 1hr 40min again and he was fussy going down and woke up crying at 35 minutes in. I replugged a few times and finally I just put him into his swing. He still awake though.

He hasn't nursed during the night in probably a month. Maybe only once or twice when he seems more mad. That night he was just super wiggly.

The time of the CN changed bc I let him sleep later in the morning.

Do these tiny adjustments really make that much difference?
With a 2 hr nap and 1hr40min A the next nap is UT and then the next day after a 1.5hr nap 1hr 40min A is OT. This is just exhausting and aggravating and now here I am holding him!! Just creating a bad habit, he falls asleep just fine on his own so am I going to turn into a prop now? 

I wonder if I need to do sleep training and then ask myself what I'm suppose to do? He can fall asleep on his own with the binkie and swaddle. Just go ahead and ween those now? I was trying to get him away from being OT first which doesn't seem to work no matter what I do.


I really appreciate your feedback. I'm starting to question everything and think that nothing I do is going to make it better. I second guess myself and think maybe he needs less A   my head is spinning. One day something works great and then the next I try to repeat that and it's just all wrong.

[newkidontheblock]

Months 3 & 4 are really hard. I felt that everything got a lot more predictable after the week 19 wonder week was behind us. It's not only the times that you have to look at, hun but also how that time is spent. They get so overstimulated so fast and that again messes up sleep. With us too, am nap was golden but pm nap was and has always been hard to understand.  There is a growth spurt soon, so you might get NWs for hunger then. That being said, at that age, I would have just fed DD as it was a surefire way to get her back to sleep.

[MommaStorms]

I'll put all of yesterday up

WU 7:40
E 7:40
A
S 9:25-10:55

E 11
A
S 12:35-1:15 (let him try to fall back to sleep on his own, tried the swing finally held him)
S 1:50-3:05

E 3:10
A
S 5:05 -5:35 (I laid him down at 4:30, he jabbered all that time)

E 6:20- he was trying to fall asleep nursing!

S 7:25  (I laid him down at 7, he did lots of jabbering)

He had cry outs and replugs until about 10
DF- 1am...  I was up watching Parenthood, oops

About 6am he was fussing, he was trying to get his hand to his face but couldn't bc of his swaddle. When I held his arm down he would drift back off up as soon as I let get his hand would try to go back.
Finally at 6:30 I brought him in bed a nursed. We slept until 9:25 

At A:1hr 20min he was trying to burry his head in my shoulder n fussy. I swaddled him and walked him around to try to extend. We got to 1.5hrs and I laid him down. At 25 min of sleep I heard him jabbering, few minutes later he was crying. Now I'm holding him 

So let's talk about a CN. I didn't cap the one yesterday, he just only slept maybe 20 minutes.
I'm not and wasn't sure when to put him to bed at that point and didn't know how truly tired he was until I started nursing him. Then when I put him to bed he was all hyped up. So when (if I can ever get any of this to kinda work) I cap his nap how long do I keep him up?

I feel like I'm totally failing at just following his lead. I assume that he really needs to stay up longer bc in the past he'd have a 45 minute nap and can't go back to sleep. Like I considered all the sleep he got last night and assumed that when he was burying his head this morning he couldn't possibly he tried yet bc his a time in the am is usually best at 1hr 40min. 

I have a wonder week app on my phone. It looks like he's got 3 more weeks until he's through this one and he'll be 19wks! I know their sleep just plain sucks 3-4 months. But I want to get through it Will as little props as possible! I.E. ME!!! I go back and forth with myself as to what to do when he has a short nap. Just get him the sleep or shh/pat and try to get him to do it independently. I'd prefer to not have to fix things later. He has slept SO WELL on his own napping long and sleeping long without my help until about a month ago and it would just be terrible to me to have all that go away. DD really took it all out of me. I'm not sure how much more sleep training and bad habits I can un-do this time around. Any advise on that??

I just realized how long this post is. I'm sorry!!!

[newkidontheblock]

Okay,let's talk about the day first. It sounds so much like what my DD was doing at that age. Pm nap was always a pest. I caused myself a LOT of stress & frustration with trying to extend it. Eventually gave in to it being 40 minutes. Lol. I would suggest that you avoid holding him for it. As you yourself said, you don't want to become a prop. If there is no way to extend it, move on. Let the next nap go on a bit longer if necessary. I would also do away with the swing. Maybe he needs a bit longer A before that nap? Looking at the times he is falling asleep on his own, I feel that he is transitioning himself in the direction of a 4 hour EASY. So maybe a touch more would do the trick. How about trying to be in the room waiting just before that time. When he stirs, quickly put your hand on him and pat him back to sleep. This worked great with my DD. We had to spend a week in the room with our hand on her for the rest of the nap but then we backed off completely, and she stayed down.

As you can clearly see from the CN, after a good nap, he is not at all tired after 1.30. Even with 2 hours, he just did a short nap. Why not move straight on from CN to BT routine? Again like my DD, I think your DS cannot handle the long A to bed with only a 30 minute CN - maybe it would be different with 45 minutes. What is your bedtime routine? With my DD, we did bath/ massage, BT nursies (which took around 30-40 minutes) So if she WU at 5.30, I would move straight on to that and have her in bed between 6.40-7. The point of the CN is for them to be relaxed enough to handle bath etc but too long a nap but it is a short window and they get OT very quickly.

WRT the DF at 1 - Your night seems okay but can I suggest that if you forget to do the DF between 10 & 11, to just skip it and wait for him to WU. It can actually interfere with their sleep cycles when it is done too early or too late, according to Tracy.

The swaddle seems to be a recurring issue with him. Would you consider getting a swaddle which fastens with velcro? No way he is busting out of that one:p... for a while, at least. We used to wrap our DD with cloth swaddles too but she kept busting out of them.

Now about Day 2
Nap 1 reinforces my feeling that his A times have increased. Although he is showing you sleepy signs, he is not actually tired enough at that point to do a long nap. I suggest you also keep one eye on the clock. When he shows these cues, go to low key activities - walk around, read to him etc..just keep him up till the proper A.

A 20 min nap suggests OT Short naps - why does my baby wake after 20 minutes?

Hun, just start as you mean to go. You already seem clear on what you DON'T want to do, so try to avoid doing it. You could always APOP a nap if it is really needed. I'm in 2 minds as to what to say to you here because I had a very hard time at 4 months. From the day she turned 4 months old till the end of that month, DD's naps were atrocious! Nights were my only saving grace. I'm a FTM and I was so terrified of doing the  'wrong' thing and creating props that I made things harder than they needed to be. In retrospect, I wish I had APOPd more so that she got the sleep she needed. Anyway.. so my point is, you do what you have to do. Just always remember that we need to be consistent in our approach otherwise it is not fair to the babies, and don't start something that you are not willing to see through. You have already done this with your DD, so you have a good idea of how things go. I think you just need to find the right A for him and your good napper will be back:)

[MommaStorms]

Thank you so much! It's 12am and he's already been having a rough night. But I'm feel positive about starting with a new plan tomorrow.

I've been thinking about what you said about being OS and I remembered feeling kind of nervous about him becoming OS when he started to become more effiecnt and nursing sessions went from 30 minutes to 10. I was reading some other link on here that said to wind down 30 minutes before S.

DS is being SUPER SWADDLED. I wrap a light blanket around his arms and tuck it behind his back  so his arms are at his side and then put him in a Velcro summer swaddle. He sleeps SO MUCH better, which sounds shocking bc he is having such a hard time right now. With just the Velcro swaddle he either breaks the Velcro or gets his hands through the neck. I've also tried a woombie and he wants his hands touching his face and just keeps him self up and gets so upset. So, super swaddle.

I do think he is ready to space feeds 4hrs so if I can get the naps worked out that would be great.

Ok! Plan of attack!! I'm going to shoot for 1hr40min A and I'm going to start walking him around with him at 1hr10min. Diaper, swaddle, darken room, sing&rock. Lay down. Go in 30min into nap and help transistion.  If he takes a nice long am nap then I think it would be safe to move to 2hr A but be super careful with stimulation.

Thanks for explaining CN & BT! That makes sense the way you discribed it! 
Not in the habit of doing DF that late. It was just last night. I had stayed up so late and figured it would get me a little extra sleep.

Thanks again for your help. I'm gonna try this out for a few days and let you know how it goes. Cross those  fingers for me!!!

[newkidontheblock]

Crossing everything possible! :p

Also about the long wind down -- We also do a pre-wind down before the wind down. Haha:) Our DD just is SO alert. So I take her down for a walk in the sling or DH/I walk around the house with her singing/humming and then go into her room just 5 minutes before nap & swaddle, sleepy song while drawing curtains, kiss & put in crib, turn music box on and leave. We have at one point also gone into her room early and read books/ done finger rhymes in the dim room before getting on with things. She really keeps us on our toes

[MommaStorms]

I really couldn't get down to business yesterday bc he already had lots of plans so I basically APOP'd.

I went in during 1st nap at 30minutes into nap. I held him right etc & felt like I got him through the transition and was just about to leave and his eyes popped open 1hr & 10min in... UT, you think?