Author Topic: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?  (Read 15701 times)

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Offline EloysH

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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2015, 00:49:33 am »
Hi Love,

Claire contacted me and asked if I could possibly offer anything to help you, having had 2 kids in a similar situation...  well done you are being such a great advocate for your LO and sounds like your LO is improving!

Firstly I would say that mucus poos aren't all bad, they really need to be considered in the greater symptom picture because babies with reflux and food intolerances guts aren't in the greatest shape they will continue to produce these sorts of poos. If baby is not in pain, then don't worry too much  :) :)   unless you saw blood in the stool... or had the stool tested for blood.  If you find that LO is very bothered and unsettled at times, then looking back at foods you ate, I  would just look at the last 24 hours each time, but also, these babies of reflux just do have periods of unsettledness anyway, especially if teething or sick, their capacity to cope goes right down especially if immune system is working hard, and they will get unsettled.

   My youngest had severe reflux and was on Losec, multiple food intolerances and food chemical sensitivities. The good news is that he is 5 and eats anything! Every month he just got better and better..... age 1 and 2 were milestones.  Off meds at 22 months was a huge improvement!  We did alot of work on his gut and immune system though we were very careful with re-introducing foods. we also looked at mineral imbalances and he was on specific supps for a few years including a range of probiotics. We complemented our paediatricians care with holistic care also, I found a nutritionist and naturopath to help us give a diet of healing foods and supps. From a nutritionist point of view his diagnosis was gut dysbiosis, and mineral deficiencies, from the paed point of view from paed the diagnoses was food intolerances and reflux. Both were helpful is that each works from a different angle to restore health.

In general, my view as a student of holistic nutrition and naturopathy reflux, food intolerances, mucus poos and unsettledness, digestive discomfort, lower abdominal pain, bloating, excess gas, is a sign of gut flora imbalance or gut dysbiosis. There are simple tests you can do to help confirm this (from a practitioner) however, mostly these tests aren't necessary.

Whilst completely necessary to control reflux pain, Losec unfortunately doesn't help with gut dysbiosis at all. My son was on Losec till 22 months though!  Unfortunately Losec encourages further gut imbalances mainly because a lack of stomach acid as the first line of defence for "bad" bacteria means that more get in and colonise the gut. Good levels of stomach acid trigger the release of digestive enzymes in the duodenum when the acid is neutralised there by bile.  If the stomach acid is not present then this lessens the efficiency of digestion. Bad bacteria feed on sugars and ferment and cause excess gas and boating and do not aid in efficient breakdown of carbohydrates.  Bad bacteria compete with good bacteria for real estate. Antibiotics kill off both bad and good bacteria and leave vacant real estate for  candida and bad bacteria to regrow.  Good bacteria aid greatly in the breakdown of  carbohydrates and sugars, without good populations of these food passes through the small intestine improperly broken down and then can ferment in the bowel contributing to gas and bloating and pressure in the gut, which is not good for oesophageal sphincter tone, if the gut is under stress,  tone of  all sphincters will be lessen. 

 Also, good bacteria live in the lining of your small and large intestine and also play an important role in immune function. Sometimes the kids with gut dysbiosis will struggle to recover from colds and flus and run from one virus infection to another without truly recovering. Having said all that, one can cope with gut dysbiosis, the body is am amazing machine and still digests food and finds ways to compensate, its just not ideal.

Generations of antibiotics erode the ecosystem of the gut and a mother passes her flora onto her children, and so forth. We are looking at third generation of antibiotics without much time spent on replenishing the gut and we are only at the beginnings of understand how important health gut flora truly is for long term health.

Also contributing to food intolerances and especially  salicylate sensitivity, is the development of the liver of a child. It reaches its best capacity for producing digestive enzymes around age 5, so over time their capacity to tolerate and digest foods really increases, as when off the meds, I noticed a much quicker improvement in all area of tolerating foods and digesting. Children with a celtic genetic background, reish hair and very very pale skin & rashy cheeks seem to be the main group affected by this lack of enzymes issue and with time their capacity to detoxify these chemicals improves as they grow bigger.

  It sounds like your LO is going ok with weight though  :)  Not losing weight,  and the reflux pain is controlled which is fabulous!  ;D

 It is such a great thing that you have removed so many irritants from your LO's diet, and giving LO the best chance to rest up and heal.   One thing is that it guts are amazing at recovering given the right conditions, so don't despair! Probiotics are a great idea!  I am a believer in tailoring the right probiotics to the right gut.... you can have better results of your restore certain strains that are lacking... this can only be looked at by testing your gut flora though and its expensive and still considered experimental by some. There are also some strains of bacteria such as the good e/coli that can displace bad bacteria so if you know what you have overgrowths of you can target these more specifically. For instance we took a supplement called mutaflor (e.col) when LO had a Colostridium over growth, and 4 weeks after taking mutaflor 10 days on 5 days off and 10 days on he was clear! But there is a great deal of evidence emerging around the world to support this approach to health and many mainstream are getting into it too.  Holistic nutritionists will do this sort of testing. In Australia, naturopaths do it and so do wholistic paediatricians, and Gp's that are trained in environmental medicine.  Where are you based -  city and country?

the other important thing to is to feed LO some prebiotic foods, the foods that the good bacteria feed on. I am sure you are already doing this just from having a great diet. They like fermentable fibre. the super foods for fibre are, that contain the 3 types of fibre for good bacteria are rye, legumes (should be soaked overnight to remove enzyme inhibitors and phytates) and barley. Also, white rice is quite good as a prebiotic food, especially basmati!   Its important though to not go overboard with the prebioitic super foods, if the gut is quite "goopy" these can cause excessive bloating and gas at first!  There are also supplements like fructo-oligosaccardies (FOS), raw potato starch, that are food for good bacteria but I would only take under supervision of a nutritionist as they can cause alot of bloating. We started with a pin head amount.

When baby is older you can start to look at incorporating fermented foods in their diet, unfortunately they are high in amines though so wait till baby is more robust.

Something that sticks out, oats are not gluten free unless you specifically buy gluten free oats that are marked as so on the packet.

And good luck sounds like you are doing an astounding job!  :)

My LO was born 75th percentile and dropped to 25th too. He regained as he approached age 1 and 2 to 50th and has stayed there... he is now 5.  I did manage to breastfeed on a very restricted diet like yours for a year and honestly I don't know how I did it.  I think that its such in individual choice but do what feels right for you. 

Eating good fats is hard on a low chemical diet, consider adding in avocado back in quite early and also olive oil and  grass fed animal fats. I also am an advocate for animal fats... bone broth is also amazing for your breastmilk and for bubs when they start solids, but again contains natural amines and glutamates. There is a point though were you need to step away from a low chemical diet slowly so you can add in some healing foods and more good fats.. saturated fats that are not trans fats are great, things like lard, grass fed animal fat, grass fed butter, grass fed ghee. I would certainly not be cutting the fat off your meats at the moment. Eat them all up  :P
Regards
Eloys
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 00:53:44 am by EloysH »

Offline ~Jen~

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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2015, 19:52:15 pm »
Hi Eloys! It is great to hear from you - thank you so much for popping over and sharing so much fantastic advice and knowledge.  It is so appreciated.  You helped me with my DD1 four years ago with her food intols and I don't think I ever got to thank you back then for all your support.   

I think you are spot on with the gut flora imbalance and gut dysbiosis.  It took me a little while of trying different things in my diet and cutting other things out but I think I'm finally on the right track thanks to all the wonderful ladies helping me on this thread.  It has been about 4-5 days that I've gone completely grain free.  I'm definitely seeing a gradual improvement both in fewer dirty nappies and volume of mucous.  Before tryijng this, I was cutting out gluten but as a result was replacing it (and probably overcompensating!!) with gluten free grains - rice/GF oats/buckwheat...  actually looking back at it I was way too heavy grains.  I think that just completely stressed her already inflammed gut even further. 

I'm based in London and today I went to see a Naturopath/Nutritionist for some advice on supplements and diet.  She was really helpful to get ideas on how to get enough fat and protein into my diet while cutting the grains.   I'm going to start on a probiotic straight away and also do a few tests to figure what I'm deficient in and hopefully supplement thosee areas. 

Fingers and toes crossed at this point but I finally have a really good feeling that we are headed down the right path.  Thanks again for all your great advice.  I hope other BWs will read and benefit from this knowledge as well!  Maybe we can take your reply and make it a sticky / FAQ ?

Take care!
Jen   :-*



Offline EloysH

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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2015, 01:02:56 am »
Hi Jen,

I do remember you now!  ;D Wow, times flies!

Removing grains can  be really helpful in the early stages for settling inflammation... great. hope that really helps!   Glad you have  good nutritionist on board :-) Getting the right foods and nutrients into you can be tricky with such a restricted diet.  If  grains are causing problems then the pre-biotic fermentable fibre supplements will probably have to wait till a bit later on the path of healing they can irritate if grains are causing issues.

Yes, a sticky of FAQ could be useful  :)

Let us know how you get  on...

oh and Liz!! I'm so pleased had a third you are AMAZING.... a miracle... you LEGEND !! ;D ;D :-*

Regards
Eloys


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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2015, 20:26:35 pm »
Hi all, I'm back for some more support. I am feeling so down with this today and I could really use some words of encouragement OR maybe just someone to tell me that I should just stop obsessing over it.  Would love to have your thoughts - I feel like I am losing my mind!

So this is where we are at...  I'm still EBF and I'm still on a completely restricted diet.  I've also been grain free now for about a month.  It has made a big difference for DD- we went down to 1-2 mucous poos per day rather than explosive poos after every feed.  So that is good.  Her weight is stable now - she hasn't gone back up to her orginial centile but she hasn't fallen from 25% for a few months now.  That is good too. She has come off the Omprazole because she hasn't been showing any more signs of reflux.  Another good thing.  Now it seems to be just the gut issues.  When she does poo it is totally runny/slime/mucous/smelly.  With her nappies looking like this, I can only imagine her gut inflammation has not gotten much better and possibly worse.  This is what upsets me - I feel like I am still poisoning her with BM.  She has been spitting up alot now too but doesn't seem very fussed by it and seems happy enough.  This whole elimination diet thing is such a needle in a haystack. I'm pretty certain she has multiple issues going on which seems to make  it  impossible to figure out what is irritating her. 

DS is following RAPH diet for food chem intolerances.  This has helped him HUGE.  His aggression/anger has calmed, he is more focused at school and the volume of soiling incidents have dropped significantly.  I also think I am sensitive too and now that I've changed my diet to low chemical I can really see that.  Also, I'm sure I have gut flora inbalance myself (since changing diet my hypothyroidism has completely cleared up!) and I'm certain I passed this along to Caia when she was born. So gut healing needs to be a focus.

I also suspect there is a fructose intolerance issue because she seems to react strongly to pear and apple.  Trying to come up with a diet that is low chemical/low FODMAPs/gut friendly (i.e. no grains)/eliminating all major allergens - is next to impossible.   :-\ I have about 10 foods left to eat which just feels not at all sustainable.  She is also approaching 6 months and solid intros to start dealing with......ah. 

Maybe the mucous poos shoudl jsut be ignored because she seems happy enough? I've started to slip in my diet because I just can't keep eating so little.  Tonight i ate half a dark chocolate bar out of frustration!!   DH said just go for it because her poos are awful anyway that it won't make a difference so I caved in.   >:(

Not sure what I'm really asking here other than just a hug and maybe someone to say either keep going or give up already!
 



Offline EloysH

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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2015, 01:28:08 am »
Hi Jen,

So sorry i haven't checked in lately! 

Sounds like bubs is doing great!!! to be off omeprazole is monumental, to have improvement with grain free is monumental! Of course the healing prcoess is slow and stedy, it takes time for the gut to heal and inflammation to go down.

Your milk has so much amazing stuff that her gut flora desperately needs, please don;t see it as poison, all the immunoglobins and things etc are awesome for her. Of course if you ened to stop bf'ing that is totally up to you and we would support you either way.

It might do to get some liver support for both the kids and yourself, Salicylate intolerance is phase 1 detoxification in the liver. NAC n-acteyl cysteine, glycine,activated b6, zinc are all very useful nutrients to support this process as are digestive enzymes.  If you can work with a nutritionist experienced ni supporting sals intolerance you will find that the kids can increase the amount of food chemicals they eat as their liver function becomes more supported and as they age towards 5 years old the liver enzyme production will be closer to optimal. My son was miles better by age 2, then 3.  We weren't even off meds util 20 months so well done!

Don;t beat yourself up at making slip ups in diet we are so so human, you are not a machine, you are a person that needs treats too. :-)



I hope that things are looking up and so sorry we missed this xxx

Offline *Liz*

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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2015, 08:52:21 am »
Wow - being off omeprazole is just great!! Thomas can't cope without it at all poor boy.

He is struggling with solids - in the sense that he is just puking milk all the time and so doesn't want to eat. My guess is nutramigen isn't the right formula for him  :-\ :-\. I keep thinking I should just try something else anyway e.g. even a standard one.

We still get a lot of mucous as well.

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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2015, 21:30:03 pm »
So sorry your post got missed when you needed hugs, hope things have improved now x

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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2015, 21:05:39 pm »
Hello all,  I'm so happy to be coming back and reporting good news!!  Caia is doing so much better at 7 months.  We kept at it and FINALLY her poos are normal (nearly all the time).  I'm still EBF.  We  are slowly adding in foods to both of our diets and challenging new foods slowly, slowly.  To get to the baseline, I had to completely cut out grains, and then go moderate chemical and low FODMAPs.  It seems the sugars/FODMAPs were the biggest irritant to her.  Once I went low FODMAPs that is when she really started to improve.  I've also been taking some good quality probiotics at the same time. 

She is doing well on her solids - she loves to eat!  Her diet is still very limited but she is thriving. Mainly eating potatoes, green beans, swede, chicken.  She had some trouble with lamb this week and she hated her first fish dish and carrots haven't been a hit.  But... at least we have a handful of foods she really loves and we keep trying to expand.  We went back to her paed who wanted to put her on Neocate months ago and he called her a little "chunk" and kept commenting on all her little baby rolls.  ;D ;D   

Thank you so much everyone for all the support and encouragement.  :-* :-*  I am so happy we got there! 



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Re: Mucous and runny poos - any ideas what I could be missing?
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2015, 21:48:05 pm »
So good to hear that you persevered and have finally got to the bottom of it - well done you! xx