Where to start?

[newkidontheblock]

{{{hugs}} Anika. I hope you get some clarity soon WRT nursing. It shouldn't be stressing you out so much. I had a lazy nurser too btw (hours upon hours upon hours) I watched a lot of shows. Lol. Are you still weighing him after every feed? I guess independent sleep is on hold with the co-sleeping. Never mind. Whenever you are ready or wanting to help him sleep on his own, we are here to support you. 

[Anika920]

He's not so much lazy as it takes him a long time. He only wants the let down and loses interest right away so it's like wrestling with him to try and get him to take in a full feeding. Part of the reason why cosleep He's not so much lazy as it takes him a long time. He only wants the let down and loses interest right away so it's like wrestling with him to try and get him to take in a full feeding. Part of the reason why I cosleep is he gains weight so much better because he will nurse more fully it seems like at night, and getting up out of bed 6+ times a night gets really old this way I could just stay in bed with an awake child. Going back to the doctor and seeing about different reflux meds hopefully that will help him to sleep better. Having a baby wake 4xs in 3h is just not normal. I hope!!!

[newkidontheblock]

Did you get any clarity regarding the reflux meds?

[Anika920]

Took my LO to a GI and he thought he should have a swallow study to make sure his anatomy is normal.  He said choking episodes in infants five months old and the amount of reflux he still having at almost 6 months is too much and he just wants to rule out any abnormalities.  He also told me that all of his night wakings our behavioral and not reflux related   

[newkidontheblock]

I don't know much about reflux, to be frank but if it is serious enough to warrant these tests, then I'm sure it isn't easy for your LO to sleep. Did you post on the reflux board, hun?

[becj86]

Oh sweetie, sleep issues are sometimes one of the few signs of a baby having uncontrolled reflux - they can be happy in the day as they're distracted and often more upright but lie them down flat so the acid can burn their oesophagus and that causes pain and difficulty sleeping. Getting the right meds will hopefully make a difference for him. I think you just have to do whatever you can to help him and you sleep until that's sorted out.

WRT raising the head of the bed and your worries re: rolling - I just wonder if he's wriggling and rolling trying to get comfortable and maybe if raising the bed a bit made a difference, he might be a bit more still when sleeping? FWIW, I think the reflux is probably more severe than raising the bed will fix but it could help.

Hugs xx you must be exhausted.

[*Liz*]

Hiya - we have spoken before - so just adding a few thoughts for you  .

Cot elevation can be very helpful. My DS has a cot wedge but he is also in a sleep pod thing so that he doesn't roll around. I find when he is well he sleeps quite peacefully, and when he is reflex he can be really fidgety. You can also use some types of sleepy positioners. Left lateral is a good reflux sleep position as well.

Secondly I wonder if he is reverse cycling his feeds a bit? So full up from the nights that he is less interested in the day iyswim? It is a pretty common problem with a BF refluxed because they do tend to feed better at night, and do tend to end up nursing for comfort as well. I have BF 2 refluxers, but my current one is bottle fed, and I find that I can settle him elevated on my chest. I am pretty sure that would never have worked for one of my BF babies - but my DS2 does only tend to want a feed when genuinely hungry. That said - it is pretty recent that he is getting to 4hrly feeds at 7 months now.

If your LO brings up a lot of milk (mine does as well - he literally pukes from the end of one feed to the start of the next one 4 hrs later) have you considered a type of thickener to see if that would help? Or indeed starting solids at this age as it has a similar effect. Again it could help with the choking episodes.

I do find that medical approaches can be quite different between the UK and US. I'm seeing my paed next week and I am almost certain that he will tell me to carry on yk?

CIO is not the answer, but I do think it is pretty likely you have a feed to sleep association at this point  .

My DS drinks lower volume feeds - he has about 5oz - I have often felt frustrated and got him to take a 7 oz bottle at bedtime. It never helps, just makes it worse and makes him restless as he refluxes more.

Stretching feeds to 2.5 hrs really shouldn't be a major issue at this age though (in that he should be able to do 2.5hr feedings). Do you think it will be hard to get there??

It really is a big old reflux/ breast feeding pickle isn't it?? I have been there twice before and it isn't nice, I know. With my DS1 I found he was better being bottle fed, and we slowly moved over as he approached 7 months. I did get past it the second time when I was clearer that it was reflux and had her on proper meds from early on.

[Anika920]

My LO is still fighting sleep. Even rocking or anything having to do with nap time. Bedtime is a little better because DH does it and gives him a bottle. He settles better. He cries some, but I can't seem to do anything to not get him to cry  I had a lactation consultant come over today and she confirmed he has both a lip and tongue tie. I think this is causing him a lot of his/our issues. I definitely think we have a feeding to sleep issue, but Ive done what I've had to in order to keep my LO healthy. Other than the obvious of switching to formula. I have been pumping and giving him some bottles to try and get him more milk. My LO is such a tornado. He is such a hyper babe I just think he hates to sleep because there is so much going on he'd rather do that then nap/sleep. The other day he feel asleep in my arms with me just sitting there holding him. That has NEVER happened. He had to of just been exhausted. I am getting so burnt out listening to his cries at nap time that I just pull him out of his room and try again later.

[becj86]

Some babies just want to be in the thick of it. DS slept swaddled on the floor on the lounge room for a while because he screamed when we went to his bedroom but would go to sleep fine on the floor

Feeding must be such an effort for him and when it causes him pain too, its going to be difficult for you both FWIW, I don't know that switching to bottles makes much of a difference with tongue and lip ties but I could be wrong. Can you get them divided or is he past that now? Does he seem to take the bottles better?

My LO is such a tornado. He is such a hyper babe I just think he hates to sleep because there is so much going on he'd rather do that then nap/sleep.

What's his routine and age? Just wonder if he's UT or needs longer A times or is maybe overstimulated at nap time and having a hard time with the transition from place to place, activity to activity? I'm sure taking a transition of location out of the pre-nap equation is part of why DS napped so well on the floor. He was in the same surroundings and with the same people around. I found if I had the TV on for company during the day, he wouldn't nap - too overstimulating for him. I had a selection of 4-5 different nap wind downs which were really just 5-10min somewhere doing something relaxing, always with me holding him as he needs physical contact to get the energy out and relax - standing on the deck chatting about trees, leaves, etc.; sitting on the steps talking about people on the other side of the world and saying goodbye to the sun; talking about what we'd do after his nap when he had more energy... He'll probably also be picking up on your own anxiety about the naps now, its hard to stay calm when you *know* there will be crying but it might be worth just letting up the pressure on yourself and him to stick to set times for a couple of days and see if a routine/pattern emerges.

[Anika920]

There are Dr who will revise the ties in an older babe. He seems to take bottles okay. There are other issues that *could come about with the ties that I'm seriously considering having them clipped. I've had a hard time getting his ped to give us a proper referral so that insurance will cover the procedure. It is very frustrating. And part of the reason it's taken so long! It was suggested at 8w he had ties. He's almost 6m now! I don't know that he'd nap where we are. He still seems to be on about a 2h A time. He's started sleeping longer at night and naps have greatly shortened. He use to wake multiple times a night and have 2 2h naps where now he takes catnaps. I'm so sensitive to his weight I don't dare feed on a schedule. And now that I know he has ties, it's not good for my supply or my babe. I'm working on pumping now and he gets some bottles. Especially at night before BT. He doesn't have much of a daytime routine other than he wakes between 7/8 and bedtime is around 8/830. I know this is not a typical BW routine in the least. I have tried to get it to work for him but it just doesn't seem to. I think mostly because of his inability to really transfer milk way and stay satisfied. Plus he is on a nursing schedule all his own it seems. After even a 6oz bottle of BM he'll root a short while later. And I know he can't be that hungry already! I tried starting naps with the lights on. I try to get away from rocking but I just can't handle the crying. He cries often throughout the day, he constantly wants me to hold him and I give in because if I don't he throws a fit. The little stinker has me wrapped around his fingers!

[becj86]

His A times should probably be higher than 2hr - usually 2:30-2:45 min by 6 months, with some at 3hr. Does this tiredness at 2hr coincide with the end of a feed? Extending that A time should get you some better naps if he's not waking from discomfort - these short naps, how long are they?

After even a 6oz bottle of BM he'll root a short while later

This could be the reflux or tiredness rather than hunger.

[Anika920]

I'll see what happens when he's up a bit longer. he gets so grumpy but i think some of that is due to just being bored or wanting to be held. And yes they do coincide with a feed. I have tried to stretch out nursing and it has weecked my supply. I think his tongue tie is just severe enough to prevent him from nursing really well and my supply slowly falls. The GI and his ped said that waking (at night) is behavioral and not from pain. Which obviously is baffling why they would put LO on reflux meds if they don't even believe they are in pain?!?!
The naps can be as short as 22m. I consider a good nap 1-1.5h. The 6pz bottle and rooting I referred to was about 1.5h after wake up from BT.

He's doing really good at night now. Most of the time dad can lay him in bed and only short or no fussing. But naps he gets so upset and screams and cries. This has been off/on for months now. I hope that maybe extending A times will help. He was taking 2 2h naps but once he started mostly STTN that changed and naps have been horrible. About 3w now.

[becj86]

Goodness me, you're in a right pickle, aren't you

20min naps are typically related to overstimulation or pain... 30 min naps tend to be OT and 45min UT. Those are the rules of thumb, anyway.

The GI and his ped said that waking (at night) is behavioral and not from pain. Which obviously is baffling why they would put LO on reflux meds if they don't even believe they are in pain?!?!

This goes against anything I've ever heard/read about reflux. Keeping them upright helps where lying them down allows the acid to flow back and hurt, yk.

I wonder what happens if you work to keep him awake after the feed rather than putting him down for a nap straight after that second feed? Seems like a feed to sleep association is growing despite your best efforts (not the worst thing in the world, but inconvenient at times). Breastmilk and feeding can make LO's sleepy, that's why a lot of people feed to sleep, its easy. If you like, you could try EAEAS, so still feed as regularly as you would but keep him upright and entertained for 20-30min after that 2nd feed and see if that helps the nap length.