Early morning waking 10.5 month old

[NinNic]

Hi,

I'm back again with EW in morning and need some advice. LO has had flu some time back and started crawling so that affected sleep, but feel she is back to normal again since 2 weeks ago, as she was very tired during flu and after and also when learning to crawl. She is 10.5 months old.

Before she got flu she was on 12.5-13 hr day (WU around 6:30, BT around 19:00-19:30) with 2 naps; am for 1.5 hrs normally and CN im pm for about 25-30 mins in stroller or she won't fall asleep, am A time 4.5 hrs and pm A time 4 hrs. We are back with the same EASY after flu and crawling. For last 10 days she has been waking between 5:30-6 in morning, still turn on the lights at 6:30 to start the day if she starts crying earlier then a bit earlier than 6:30. I thought she might be OT so I put her to bed after 4 hr 15 mins A time in morning counting A from 6:30 for a few days of the 10 days, but that led to her waking around 5:30-5:40. I changed back to 4.5 hr A in morning from 6:30 and she sleeps until 6. Today she woke 5:45 after morning A of 4.5 hrs yesterday. It takes her a bit longer also to settle for am nap now than usual.

I also notice that when she goes over 13 hr day she will wake earlier in morning. Maybe that is normal if days are longer than 13 hrs?

Is it time to increase A time? In that case how much in am and pm? Do I keep CN? Really want to keep starting day at 6:30 or even 7 if possible. For some time now she is sleeping 11 hrs max or even a bit less, before she would sleep 11.5 hrs or even a bit more sometimes. Is this also sign of increasing A? Of course now that we have 13 hr days she will maybe naturally sleep for 11 hrs.

Please advice. Thank you! 

Last 4 days of EASY:

Sun:
WU 5:37  turned on lights 6:25
S 11:04-12:29
S 16:35-17:00
BT 19:12

Mon:
WU 5:58 turned on lights 6:30
S 10:51-12:18
S 16:25-16:50
BT 19:15

Tues:
WU 6 tunred on lights 6:30
S 10:46-12:20
S 16:15-16:45
BT 19:02

Wed:
WU 5:58 turned on lights 6:30
S 10:57-12:34
S 16:28-16.55
BT 19:23

Thu:
WU 5:45 turned on lights 6:22
S 11:00-12:29

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, it looks like you could be heading towards one nap to me

She could do with a bit more A before bed - that'd be my guess.  I'd count the morning A from WU, not lights on, in which case she's already getting around 5 hours then, which is actually what you'd need for one nap.  I wouldn't push that one any later for now.  How does she seem after that nap?  Is her mood OK?  Is she getting tired before her CN?  At some point we had to start a rule which said if Jack wasn't asleep for his CN by a certain time (I think it was 3.30 or 4ish), then he skipped it, and we did an EBT instead.  We had to AP his CN to get it that early, and if he didn't go for it we skipped it, otherwise it'd rob from his overnight sleep.  I'm wondering if you need something similar, but if she's tired for her CN it might be we need to play with that first A time too.

WRT 13hr days, that's normal for many.  In fact, at 11 months we were on 13.5 days cos I couldn't get nights any longer than 10.5    If longer days result in shorter nights, though, I'd take that as her max...  It may be you're stuck with that for a while until you're properly on one nap, and then her nights should lengthen again.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your quick reply!

Her mood is good after am nap. No, she usually does not get tired before CN. I mean its not like she is rubbing her eyes or crying because she is tired, she wants to play. Ive had to apop that nap for over 3 months as she wont sleep in her bed, only in stroller. I just tried to get her to sleep earlier for CN today as I just read your reply . She fell asleep 16:00, which is after 3.5 hr A time. Should I try CN between 15-16 like you mentioned?

How would we play with first nap if she is tired for CN?

She is def much better off with 12 hr days.

What is your advice?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

You could try moving her first nap a bit earlier if she was tired for her cn, to shift it earlier, but seeing as she's not especially tired, I'd stick with the morning nap where it is and try a pm catnap by 4ish for 20 minutes.  If she won't go for that, then I'd do EBT.  Does she tend to tack on if you do that?

What do you think?

[NinNic]

Yes I agree with sticking to am nap where it is.

I'm very tempted to transition to 1 nap and EBT, but it might be too early for her. Also if she has less than 12 hr day, how would she sleep? I mean she won't sleep more than 12 hrs right? Then WU would be earlier and earlier if days are less than 12 hrs?

Would pm A time affect EW as am A time would? If I try CN around 16, which would mean less A time for her can that affect EW in morning?

Do you mean if she tend to tack on to CN?

I will def try what you suggested with CN around 16. Today she slept 16-16:25 and BT 19:10, which is 13.5 hr day.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Generally you find with the 2-1 transition that you end up with a mix of 1 and 2 nap days for a while.  So you might do a 12hr day after 1 nap, then WU the next day doesn't allow for another one nap day with a decent bedtime, so both naps are shifted earlier and you get a slightly longer day. Then you get a decent WU again, and you end up with another 1 nap day etc, until you can reliably extend both A's to get a decent length night. It can often take weeks / months and it's often a bit messy I'm afraid 

Too short an A time to bed can cause EWs, yes.  They certainly do here. We'll need to figure out what sort of A time she needs before bed after a short CN, but it can definitely be a factor.

Sorry, I meant does she tack onto her overnight sleep if you do an EBT?  I.e. If she goes to bed early and she's tired, does she sleep to her normal WU time, or does she just shift her night and wake earlier the next day?

Let me know how you get on. I'm away for a couple of days from tomorrow, so I may take a bit longer to reply, but actually it takes around 3 days to be able to see the impact of any routine change anyway, so hopefully that'll work out fine 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Here is a very useful link for the 2-1 by the way X

From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

[NinNic]

I will try CN at 16 and see what happens for a few days.

So it is a bad idea to try to increase her pm A time from 4 hr to 4.5-5 hrs right now? She has been on 4 hr A time in pm for quite some time to be able to fit in CN.

Normally she sleeps CN and doesn't skip it, but then of course we have long days as we have now. Only time I have done EBT is when she has been very tired and then she has slept until normal WU time, but then she needs to be very tired I feel.

Thanks for link, I have from before.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I think you could definitely try and increase her second A time if you think she can handle it (I assume to just do one nap), but personally I'd allow some 2 nap days sometimes as well, to keep on top of OT. I guess I'd try the earlier CN first, to see if that has any impact,  and if not, then try a 1 nap day to see how that goes.

[NinNic]

Hi,

I'm back again with an update on how things are going and need some advice. 

I've tried CN around 16 for a while now. I would say WU is around same time as before. She refused CN for 1 day and I would say she was fine didn't seem tired, maybe fell asleep a bit too late for BT, as she has had SA for a while now specially at BT so she has fallen asleep later. She woke a bit earlier, 5:40 next day.

For past 2 days she has slept much longer than she usually does for am nap around 2 hrs or more, usually she sleeps around 1.5 hrs. Should I cap this nap to 1.5 hrs to be able to fit CN so won't be too late or let her sleep until she wakes and then skip CN? A time in pm is only around 3 hrs ow, which might be too little maybe causing EW in morning. What do you think? I also don't want her to be OT with only 1 nap. How long should the 1 nap be when she is only having 1 nap per day, if she has normally been doing 1.5 hrs for her long nap in the past? I feel it takes her longer to get tired before BT with this longer am nap so day is even longer like today 13.5 hrs. It took her 45 mins to fall asleep today for BT, which is way too long for her. Usually it takes her 10-20 mins to fall asleep at BT, but for quite a while now it takes her around 30 mins to fall asleep even when she is calm and does not have SA.


Here are last 5 days of EASY:
Wed 13 May:
WU 6:09
S 11:03-12:37 woke her from nap
S 15:56-16:16
BT 18:56

Thu 14 May:
WU 5:55
S 10:56-12:20
S 15:54-16:16
BT 19:03

Fri 15 May:
WU 6:25
S 11:21-12:50
Refused to sleep CN
BT 18:51

Sat 16 May:
WU 5:40
S 10:54-12:49
S 16:00-16:20
BT 18:38

Sun 17 May:
WU 5:50
S 10:58-13:15
S 16:09-16:29
BT 19:15

[NinNic]

Just want to add, this morning she woke 6:27 so I'm confused! It's very rare she wakes that late nowadays.

Just also realised she is teething so maybe sleeping more cause of teething?

When she wakes around 6:30 should I put her to bed 11:30 for nap so she has 5 hr A time? Lunch will be quite late, but too early to have before nap.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, teething could be making her more tired which might explain the longer naps and the lie in this morning.

To be honest her EASY looks quite good for the 2-1. It's a lot more messy for some    Nights of 11hrs is pretty good - in fact that's a standard good night for us. The short night you got after 1 nap was probably cos her afternoon was too long, but that's unavoidable in the 2-1 and it looks like she's done a good job of catching up since.

If she's sleeping longer for her morning nap I'd let her,  and then skip the catnap - it's the direction she should be heading in. You might just need to keep an eye on her to make sure she's not getting too tired and maybe cap the morning nap so you can get a catnap in if so.

With regard to lie ins, morning A time and nap lengths,  she seems to be doing well on 5hrs A in the morning so I'd stick to that. Nap length can vary a lot  - 1.5 hrs was a long nap for my son, my daughter used to sleep 2.5 hrs if she was tired and my friend's little girl did 3hr naps til she was 4 and a half. I'd say 2 sleep cycles is the minimum for a good refreshing nap though - generally 1hr 20-30. Often people find that once their LO is properly on one nap, that starts to lengthen to 2hrs or more though.

[NinNic]

Thanks for your advice. 

This morning she woke 5:45 and slept am nap for 1 hr 45 mins so I decided to skip CN. I think I put her to bed a bit too late as she was rubbing her eyes a lot when I was changing her diaper. She was crying a lot and standing up many times in bed, I think OT and SA mixed. Finally she fell asleep 18:55.

I assume she shouldn't have more than 5 hrs A in pm as she is having in am right? I just find it a bit early to BF her before BT before 18:00, also to fit in lunch after her am nap, dinner and BF before BT. Do you think it's too early to BF before 18:00 for her to not get hungry until morning? Usually I BF 6:45-7 in morning.

How can I make her sleep longer in morning or is there really no point trying until she is on 1 nap? How do I do it then? Will a lot of LO´s sleep 12 hrs when on 1 nap or still 11 hrs? Would like her to wake around 7 if possible and BT 19/19:30. Do you think that would be possible?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, that would definitely be possible with many  LOs.  My daughter generally did 11.5 hr nights after the 2-1 - you might find you don't get to that point til she's properly on one nap though. Having said that, pushing her to get there will probably backfire  - it could take ages. I'll be honest - with Jack we had short nights all the way through the 2-1 and nothing I did seemed to help, but many do find a better way through it. Some LOs get through it more quickly and easily than others.

5hrs A time after a nap sounds like a good time to aim for to me. It does give quite a long stretch overnight between feeds but I think that's unavoidable, and at 10.5 months she should be getting her calories mostly from solids, so milk is more of a top up at this age.  I think that'll be fine.

I'm not sure what you can do to lengthen nights in the 2-1 to be honest, except try and keep a decent A til bed  (not offer a cn too late), play about with nap times a bit and keep an eye on OT building up.  How did she do at night after the one nap day?

[NinNic]

Thanks for your advice again! 

When you say keep a decent A til bed, after a 20 min CN how long roughly would that be? I feel that she needs around 2-2.5 hrs, if more I feel she gets OT as I tried about 3 hrs A time. Or do you mean to not get a too long day?

Well things didn't go too well as she was woke 1:35 crying for over 2 hrs, but think that was because she got a cold and nose was blocked. I woke her around 7 am next day. How should I go about if she has i.e. a cold but not fever with sleep and naps? Try to stick to usual EASY? She wasn't teething earlier so maybe she wasn't feeling well just before cold.

She can be very fussy in am, don't know what it is, if she is OT or something else, but it is very strange. Nowadays I take her out also in am and she is in better mood. She can rub her eyes around 9 am, but don't know if that is because she is tired. Find it hard to know always as she can be rubbing her eyes at anytime throughout the day.

On Saturday we were at family's place so she was supposed to sleep her am nap there in travel bed, but she was so worked up and playing in bed that we had to pat her in the end to fall asleep and then she woke after 25 mins and couldn't get her back to sleep. Should she have same A time as after a full nap before CN when sleeping for 25 mins? I put her down for CN earlier than usual as she was tired. I find it tricky to get her to bed earlier after CN as she usually needs same A time after CN usually to fall asleep even if she is OT. She was def OT after that day for a while. I have posted EASY days below. She has been going down fine for her CN in pram for past few days (maybe cause OT) and I've tried to do it a bit earlier to get her to bed earlier in evening so days are not too long as I notice she is more tired when not sleeping for at least 11 hrs and she tend not to sleep past 6 am.

Today she was playing in bed for over 30 mins, standing up all the time, I tried putting her down several times and then finally she fell asleep, A time 5.5 hrs. If she sleeps over 1.5 hrs should I skip CN or have it anyways as it might be late for CN?

We are travelling next weekend by car, it is a long trip. If she does not fall asleep in car or sleep long for her am nap what do I do then? We will be travelling the whole day and also when it is time for her BT, what is your advice? If she doesn't fall asleep in the car (we don't have a car so she has not been in a car that many times and when she has she hasn't been too happy about it) can I get her to fall asleep in pram and then put her in car seat? Just worried she won't sleep in car and be so OT.

When travelling and LO is on 1 nap per day, what is your advice if that 1 nap is not long enough or does not happen at all?

I really feel that it is def not worth pushing for 1 nap when LO is not ready as you advice. It just a roller coaster of OT and UT I feel, but she gets easily OT if not sleeping enough. I know you said if she sleeps am nap for 2 hrs I can skip CN, she has been sleeping 1 hr 45 mins do you advice to skip CN then also or stick with CN? It is a but tricky I feel, as days will then be too long for her with CN, but maybe OT if without CN. Maybe I should just wake her after 1.5 hrs to keep CN. What do you think?

Sat 23 May:
WU around 6
S 11:19-11:51 took 30 mins to settle in the end had to pat her
S 14:55-15:30 let her sleep a bit longer
BT 18:52

Sun 24 May:
WU 5:25
S 10:42-12:23
S 16:03-16:23
BT 19:13

Mon 25 May:
WU 5:25 might have fallen asleep until 6 but not too sure
S 10:37-11:58
BT 18:41

Tues 26 May:
WU 6:10
S 11:02-12:30
S 15:43-16:06
BT 18:42

Wed 27 May:
WU 6:06
S 11:36 took 40 mins to get to sleep, now 13:11 still sleeping

So many questions sorry! Thank you in advance!