Early morning waking 10.5 month old

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hmmm...  If she's a bit crabby in the morning then another option is to do a short catnap at around 9ish, and then let her have her longer nap in the afternoon, which would then see her to bedtime more easily.  So something like:

WU: 5.30 - 6
Nap 1: Set at 9am for 30 minutes
Nap 2: Try 1pm set nap, uncapped.  Hopefully get at least 1.5hrs here.
BT: 7

Then if the second nap isn't long enough you can gradually shorten the first until she's ready to properly move to one nap. 
What do you think? 

With regards to your questions....

When you say keep a decent A til bed, after a 20 min CN how long roughly would that be? I feel that she needs around 2-2.5 hrs, if more I feel she gets OT as I tried about 3 hrs A time. Or do you mean to not get a too long day?

Yes, I meant not to have too long a day, really.  It looks like you're getting to the point where allowing a catnap and a decent A til bed makes the day too long.  The A after the cn can be whatever you feel is right for her, but if you're having to AP a cn at around 3.5hrs A after a decent first nap, then probably a final A of 2.5hrs is interfering with her night, even if she seems tired - this is more likely to be cos her day is getting long by that point rather than 3 hrs A being too long after a 30 minute nap.  Most LOs only shorten their A by around 20 minutes after a short nap.

How should I go about if she has i.e. a cold but not fever with sleep and naps? Try to stick to usual EASY?

Yes, if it's just a cold, I would, or maybe slightly shorten her usual A if she seems tired or is not sleeping well. 

Today she was playing in bed for over 30 mins, standing up all the time, I tried putting her down several times and then finally she fell asleep, A time 5.5 hrs. If she sleeps over 1.5 hrs should I skip CN or have it anyways as it might be late for CN?

If she does that again, I'd let her sleep completely uncapped and then do EBT rather than try and get a cn in.  Generally if a LO can handle 4.5 - 5 hrs A they're ready for one nap, so if she did 5.5 I'd defintely make that a one nap day.

We are travelling next weekend by car, it is a long trip. If she does not fall asleep in car or sleep long for her am nap what do I do then? We will be travelling the whole day and also when it is time for her BT, what is your advice? If she doesn't fall asleep in the car (we don't have a car so she has not been in a car that many times and when she has she hasn't been too happy about it) can I get her to fall asleep in pram and then put her in car seat?

When travelling and LO is on 1 nap per day, what is your advice if that 1 nap is not long enough or does not happen at all?

It's hard when you're travelling - you kind of have to accept that everything may go out of the window for a while and then concentrate on getting back on track when you're home.  I would try and get her in the car early to give her time to get used to it before she gets tired.  You might then find she falls asleep OK.  If it's getting really late and she's just not sleeping, could you plan a lunch or coffee break around a nap in the buggy for her?  If you think you'll get away with transfering her you could try that, though I would never have gotten away with that at 11 months.  My two weren't that massive on sleep though!  Otherwise I'd try and let her sleep as long as you can get away with in the buggy.  One thing to bear in mind is that she won't be getting much activity in the car seat, so if she doesn't nap much, some of it will be mitigated by the fact that she will be having a very quiet day!  She might have to get by on 2 cat naps that day, if that's the way it goes.  If she falls asleep late and then only cat naps, I'd try another one about 3 - 3.5hrs later.  it depends on how she does in the car and how much flexibility you have to stop I guess...

I know you said if she sleeps am nap for 2 hrs I can skip CN, she has been sleeping 1 hr 45 mins do you advice to skip CN then also or stick with CN? It is a but tricky I feel, as days will then be too long for her with CN, but maybe OT if without CN. Maybe I should just wake her after 1.5 hrs to keep CN. What do you think?

If you want to stick with the long am nap, I'd let her sleep uncapped at that one and just offer the cn at your normal time and let her use it to self regulate.  If she's tired, she'll take it, if she's not, she won't.  If you've capped the first nap and then she doesn't take the cn, she'll have a long time til bed   The only exception to that might be if you think she's really tired overall and her long am nap falls  early in the day, in which case a 1.5hr nap and a catnap will probably help her get over OT better than one long nap and then a very long A til bed.  You might have to judge that a bit on the day - or switch to a short am / long pm nap and then only cap the long nap if it's getting too close to BT.  We switched it round towrds the end of the 2-1 for the same reason.

Hope that's all helpful! 

[NinNic]

Thanks so much for your advice! 

Since yesterday this is what has happened:

Wed 27 May:
WU 6:06
S 11:36 took 40 mins to get to sleep, woke 13:30
BT put her to bed 17:59 as she seemed tired- was crying tired cries (usually doesnīt do that this much) fell asleep 18:18

Thu 28 May:
WU 6:18
S put her to bed 11:15, she was rubbing her eyes (but then again she does that throughout the day so I don't know which rub is the tired rubbing), she was again like yesterday standing up and playing around until 12, I tried putting her down several times but doesn't really help as she is back up again, she started tired crying and fell asleep 12:12

Is this a sign that she is maybe ready for 1 nap or developmental thing of wanting to stand up all the time (she has learnt to stand up for a while now so it's not that new to her). She had A of 6 hrs, which is way too long right?

I feel bad not going to her when she is tired crying, but if we do she just usually gets disturbed. Is it ok to not go in?

Should I put her down a bit later tomorrow morning aiming for more than 5 hrs A time in am and see if she stops playing in her bed? Usually she does not do this for her am nap, her am nap is usually the easiest as she goes down well for it.

Maybe it's worth keeping this long A in morning and not go for a CN around 9 am? Can babies rub their eyes if they are bored? As soon as I go out with her she is fine.

Would you still keep 1 nap if she sleeps 1.5 hrs and not more? Like today I will def not have a CN as she has fallen asleep so late anyways.

I don't know what to do with her lunch as it will be very late lunch when she falls asleep so late. I have BF her before her nap so I guess she will be ok, but it will be close to dinner at 5 pm. What do you think? Keep late lunch until she is properly on 1 nap and I know her times better and maybe skip snack between lunch and dinner?

Are children better nappers when they are older as you said at 11 months it was hard for your children, with regards to transferring into the car?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hmm.... To be honest, I'm not sure if she's needing more A time or OT now with that nap resistance.... Though it could be that she needs a bit more A time after some good nights. Weds, after that 2hr nap in the middle of the day it looks like she had a really good night, but 6hrs A is a lot at this age.  Having said that, my son was doing that from about 10 months and my daughter from about 13 / 14 months.  My son is very unusual in his sleep needs though I think it's worth trying 5hrs A to see if it helps, though. If it backfires, you can always do a catch up day the day after. I'm also wondering if she'd get on well with a early bedtime as it looks like she tacks on well.  I would definitely try a 6pm BT again on one nap days.

If she only sleeps 1.5hrs, I would offer a cn at the usual time, and if she doesn't take it, do an early BT again.

With the lunch thing - when my LOs were napping at 11.30ish I did a small lunch / large snack before the nap, and the same afterwards, until their nap moved to 12ish, when I did lunch at around 11.30.

On the tired crying  (sorry, I'm on my phone and can't quote), although BW doesn't advocate leaving your baby to cry if they need you, Tracy Hogg did say to leave them when they're doing a mantra  (or settling) cry. I used to listen for escalating cries, count to 10 or 20, check they were still escalating, and go in after that.  If they were tired cries and starting and stopping, or slowly calming down I would leave my two to settle. If you think she needs you though, you can always go in, reassure her,  and then go back out again.

Just thought - is she teething at the moment? Have you tried giving her meds half an hour before her nap? Just wondering whether that could be contributing to her not settling well?

Finally, in my experience, children do get less sensitive, sleep wise, as they get older. I don't know if that's just my two. If my daughter slept in the car as a baby we had to keep moving or she'd wake up  (even at traffic lights), and I couldn't ever transfer her, but now I could park the car, turn off the engine, open her door and talk to her and she'd stay asleep. I've transfered her at night a few times in the last 2-3 years too, without problems.

I'm away for a couple of days now and won't have wifi very often, so apologies if I go quiet for a bit.  I'll catch up with you when I'm back though

[NinNic]

Thanks for advice again. 

Things have been a bit messy since I last wrote. She is very OT and has been since those days she fell asleep after around 6 hrs A in am. I have posted her last days below. She is very tired in morning and grumpy so I have put her to bed earlier. I would like to continue with long nap in am and CN in pm as it suits us better. Is it ok to then put her to bed earlier when she is OT in am even if itīs 1 hour earlier like today? How do I go about if she only sleeps for 30 mins for her am nap and I can't get her back to sleep again, do I still do a CN or let her sleep longer? Yesterday I let her sleep 40 mins in pm as she was so tired, also slept earlier for CN as she slept earlier in am. I just find it hard to know how long pm nap should be to fit in BT, so that won't be too late. I have realised like you said that she sleeps much better when she gets to bed around 6 pm for BT. Just for past 2 days I did that but because of her SA it has been late anyways and she wakes earlier in morning also because of OT.

She has been having bad SA at BT for past 2 days where she just stands up and cries so much non stop. When my DH goes in to comfort her, every time he walks out she just cries even more. This goes on for 1 hour or more and of course she is exhausted and OT by then. Yesterday he opened her door so some light came into her room she then stopped crying and fell asleep after a while. Is this something that happens at this age? I guess they are so much more aware of their surroundings also when they can stand up in their bed to look around. Do you know if there is anything else we can do except going in comforting her and going out again. I have told DH to not sit in her room to calm her as she is standing up in bed and that this might become a prop, but instead to go in and comfort and go out and repeat. It's just that it goes on for so long until she calms down probably because she is exhausted.

I guess you meant try 6 hr A in am? How do I do a catch up day?  How long can she sleep for in a catch up day?

I don't think she is teething, I think those days it took her so long to fall asleep in am was because she was so exited about standing up in her bed as she was very happy.

Sounds great about them not being so sensitive about sleep. From around what age was that with your children?

We are going to a party where there is no possibility of her sleeping in a bed for BT only pram, how do I go about it? It won't be very late but might be difficult to get back home for her BT specially if it would be around 6 pm that day? Can I do a longer CN to make her last a but later for BT or any other better advice?


Fri 29 May:
WU 6:30
S 12:14-12:50 standing for a while then fell asleep sitting up (this has never happened before)
S 14:59-15:26
BT 18:10

Sat 30 May:
WU 5:18
S 10:47-11:19 patted her fell back to sleep 11:30-12:45 (tried longer A, which was too long)
S 15:54-16:14
BT put to bed 17:53 crying a lot because of SA finally fell asleep 18:58

Sun 31 May:
WU 5:20 tried to get her back to sleep didn’t work
S 9:36-10:58
S 14:54-15:33
BT put to bed 17:40 crying a lot because of SA finally fell asleep 19:00

Mon 1 June:
WU 5:43
S 9:42-10:41 woke for few mins fell asleep again 10:45-11:18

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry to ehar she's getting OT, though not surprising after those long mornings I guess.  To answer your questions:

Is it ok to then put her to bed earlier when she is OT in am even if itīs 1 hour earlier like today?

I would definitely put her down earlier if she's OT.  The advice is usually to only pd 20-30 minutes earlier to avoid an UT nap, and thus preventing her from geting a restful nap and getting over the OT, but if she napped well on a much shorter A then that's fine too.

How do I go about if she only sleeps for 30 mins for her am nap and I can't get her back to sleep again, do I still do a CN or let her sleep longer?

If she only does a short morning nap, I'd shorten the next A by 20 - 30 minutes and then let her sleep uncapped for her next nap.

The SA might be because she's OT - the two can be related.  It can also be age related though, yes.  It's very common to start at this age and come and go for a while.  My daughter had it really nadly for a very long time...  I think what you're doing sounds just right   You can also try sitting with her but not making eye contact oif she's suffering from SA, and then gradually over a number of days moving closer to the door and finally reassuring from outside the door, though some LOs do better with the Walk In Walk out approach you're doing. 

How do I do a catch up day?  How long can she sleep for in a catch up day?

She probably just needs a day with shorter A times and at least one uncapped nap.  I always found with my daughter there was no such thing as too much sleep when she was OT at that age, and we'd get away with a lot of day sleep, but my LSN son needed watching a bit.  it looks like she did a good nap on Sunday after around 4hrs 15 A - I would aim for around that A time if she's OT, and maybe another short nap after around 4hours A depending on what you think she'll do, followed by an early night.  I found I had to keep the day to a maximum of 12.5 hours if I was needing to get over OT with my son - just doing shorter A times and longer naps wasn't enough in itself.  Your day on Sunday looked good for a catch up day - if she'd settled OK at bedtime! 

We are going to a party where there is no possibility of her sleeping in a bed for BT only pram, how do I go about it? It won't be very late but might be difficult to get back home for her BT specially if it would be around 6 pm that day? Can I do a longer CN to make her last a but later for BT or any other better advice?

I'd offer a longer CN too for a later BT

[NinNic]

Thanks for your reply! 

She is still having SA at BT and fallen asleep late because of it. Today she woke at 5:20 am and fell asleep 7:28 pm, which is a long day. When she sleeps 10.5 hrs is that indicator of OT? Today she slept 1.5 hrs for am nap and I wanted her to sleep a bit longer for CN, but she has woken from CN after about 30 mins today and yesterday. Should I still do CN for 20 mins in order to get her to bed? Just that when she has SA it takes long for her to settle she might be even more OT with a 20 min CN? A bit tricky to fight OT when having SA.

If she wakes from her CN, which she usually does when not really tired, is there anything else I can do when putting her to bed later i.e. when at a party?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

If she's waking from her CN early cos she's not really tired and then fighting bedtime it could be she's caught up on the OT of course.  How's her mood now?  Do you think she's still OT?  What did the last 2 days look like in terms of A times and mood?  10.5hours can indicate UT or OT in my experience.  It was always UT with my son, and from what I remember, my daughter too, with shorter than that being OT.  It's not  definitive though, you have to take into account nap / night length with mood to figure out the whole picture.

If the CN is interefering with BT, I would try shortening the cn to 20 minutes and then try BT at 6 or 6.30ish to see if that helps.  What do you think?

[NinNic]

Hmm, thinking of it now she is probably not OT anymore as her mood is fine. Maybe I've put her to bed too early after 30 min CN, around same time I would when she has 20 min CN if she is not OT anymore? I put her to bed when she starts rubbing her eyes, but still she might not be tired enough? This morning she woke around 5:20 again so she had about 10 hrs sleep. She started rubbing her eyes a bit around 9:30 so I thought she might be ready for her nap, but waited as I thought it was too early when I saw the time. She was happy playing around and in a good mood, around 10:10 she started rubbing again so I BF her, after that she was really tired rubbing eyes and also crying. Put her down, she was standing up I put her down and she fell asleep. She slept for 1.5 hrs. Maybe I'm reading her tired signs too early for BT in evening? When she was much younger maybe her sleep window was much shorter than it is now? Because then her sleep window could be easily missed. 

I have been putting her down in pram earlier for CN around 3:30-3:40 pm instead of 4 pm as she has been waking earlier for am nap, which is still around 3.5 hrs A time. Does this maybe also have effect on EW?

She is not sleeping any longer in morning when she falls asleep around 7-7:30 pm, which she has lately so I def agree with putting her down earlier specially when she wakes around 5:20 am. I did put her down earlier, but maybe she wasn't tired enough and also SA. If she would sleep her am nap for 2 hrs, which she hardly does it would be easier to move her to 1 nap, but I guess we are stuck with 2 naps for now?

[NinNic]

Just a quick update on rest of today:
Today EASY:
WU around 5:20
S 10:23-11:51
S 15:44-16:04
BT put her down 18:28 fell asleep 19:18

She went down fine for CN. After CN she didn't want dinner and was crying a lot like there was something wrong, dunno if this might have to do with that she had diarrhea the other day and is a bit sore/red around anus or teething (can't see that there is any soreness/redness or feel any teeth coming up though). DH put her down at BT and still having SA. We try to put her to bed when she seems tired, but then she is happy standing up all the time when try to comfort her as soon as walk out she starts crying and same when go in to comfort her she is happy again. Is she maybe ready for 1 nap? She is going down fine for CN still. Just confused. This means she will only have 10 hr nights. 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

If you're having to AP for the cn and she's then fighting BT then it may be that she's ready for one nap, yes.  There's a really awkward time where 2 naps is too many and one is not enough, and you're probably right there. My little boy always goes down fine for naps  (if AP'D now), but it doesn't mean he always needs the sleep. It's really difficult with the EWing cos it's hard to get a one nap day in,  but we eventually used 2 naps to push BT really late  (like 8pm ), then once WU was past 6am, used that to go to 1 nap with a reasonable BT. That might be worth a go? I do think that if your A time before a nap is at 5 hrs then you're basically there as far as one nap is concerned.

WRT  tired signs,  they can be unreliable at this age and more based on habit than anything else, so you do start having to take other things into account like mood, nap / night length as well as tired signs to figure out what's going on.  They're tricky little things! 

[NinNic]

Hi again and thanks for you advice! 

Have not replied for a while as LO got an ear infection from nasty runny stuffy nose and also got vaccination, which made her tired. Now we are back on track again, but still with EW of course. They are still around 5:20 am. I have posted last days of EASY below.

I think you may be right that it is out of habit she shows tired signs at BT, as when I put her down she is happy chatting away and it takes time for her to fall asleep. She still gets tired after 5 hr A time in am even if she slept for around 10.5 hrs at night. As she normally does not sleep more than 1.5 hrs for her am nap, is this too short nap if she is on 1 nap or is it ok not to have 2 hr nap? Days will then be 11.5 hrs. Do a lot of LOīs start sleeping longer when on 1 nap?

Yes I think I should start pushing BT really late so that she will wake later in morning to start with 1 nap. Right now even if she falls asleep around 7 pm she still wakes around 5 am. Will 8 pm BT make a difference? Also should CN be longer than 20 mins to keep her up til 8 pm and still around 4 pm?


Tuesday 16 June: tired from vaccine
WU a bit before 6 am
S 10:47-13:25 long nap as tired
BT 18:33

Wednesday 17 June:
WU 5:50
S 10:49 woke 11:25 cause of stuffy nose got her back to sleep 11:35-12:35
S 15:51-16:11
BT 19:05 took her 45 mins to fall asleep

Thursday 18 June:
WU 5 am
S 9:58-11:34
S 15:20-15:41
BT 18:08 took her 38 mins to fall asleep

Friday 19 June:
WU 5:20
S 10:22-11:55
S 15:40-16:00
BT 18:50 took 35 mins to fall asleep

Saturday 20 June:
WU 5:15
S 10:22-still sleeping at 11:59

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I think you need to work on pushing that morning nap back a bit to nearer 12pm. What do you think about a set nap?  Many LOs do well with a set nap once they're on one nap - I think it's worth trying for one at 11.30 for a while, and then gradually moving it to 12ish.  You may find she naps for longer after a longer morning A time and the EWs will probably stop if her morning A time is longer and the cn is gone. What do you think?

[NinNic]

Yes I could try that. If she wakes around 5-5:20 am I put her down for nap at 11:30? A won't be too long for her? Should I do 11:30 straight away or gradully move to 11:30 as she now goes down around 10:20 for nap?

Would you do early lunch before nap?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, I'd do a small lunch before her nap and then the second half after she wakes.  You could maybe start with a nap at 11 as a set time, and offer a cat nap at 3.30ish for a while. If she doesn't take it,  then do an EBT  at 6 - 6.30ish. If she does, then do a set BT of 7? Then,  after a week you could move it to 11.30 and keep the cn slot and BT the same.  If you're still getting EW after that then maybe move to 12 after another week,  but see how she's doing then?

[NinNic]

Ok sounds like a good plan. If she sleeps for 2 hrs at 11 am I will skip CN?

Do you think it's am nap causing EW and not CN?