Extending naps - encouragement needed, am chained to the cot!

[Caroline83]

Hi there

I'd welcome some reassurance from anyone who has been successful in extending naps by helping through sleep cycle transition.

My little girl is nearly 6 months old - we developed a terrible habit of her napping on me - partly because anywhere else (she will nap in car seat/pushchair) she didn't go longer than the magic 30minutes! I have now committed to staying at home for naps for the time being and insisting they are all taken in her cot. I read an old post about helping through sleep cycle transition (usually why she wakes) and have been revisiting her as she comes out of first cycle and putting hands on her to help her through. My concern is, sometimes hands on are not enough and I have to pat/rock etc  - sometimes quite frequently throughout the whole 25-30min period! The post I originally read said that helping through the transitions would then mean she'd need less assistance eventually and be able to go through on her own - I don't see how that will happen if I'm helping her this much...?! I try to keep it to bare minimum and don't jump in straight away to see if she'll do herself, but just feels like it's getting worse if anything! Even when I feel she's over into deeper sleep I feel I have to sit by the cot just in case - which three times a day is becoming quite stressful and I don't want to do it forever! Any reassuring words/advice? Thanks

[Kellyjs]

Argh we battled short naps too hun, although hers were in her cot. But, I did manage to extend them eventually so I know (nearly) every trick in the book 

Would you mind posting your routine for me to take a peek at first? Ideally a real day such as today with timings, how she woke, what you did to get her back off etc. I like a story  . From the sounds of it you're still on 3 naps so that might have something to do with it, but I'll wait to hear from you xx

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[Caroline83]

Hiya, thanks - yesterday below - was a bit of a weird day as she is also having some night waking issues, that's another story and we're getting there with it.

Wake: 5.30am - not usually this early (usually 6-6.30), but couldn't get her back down
E - Breast feed: 6am
A - play with Daddy/help Daddy get ready for work (!)
S - 7.50 nap in cot, lasted 30mins(woke 8.20) didn't catch first stir quickly enough and aborted

E - Breast feed: 9am
A - play at home and Rhyme Time at library
S - nap in cot 11am - did last 1hr 40 (wake 12.40), after 25mins went back and stayed for 25/30 min - had to help with light sleep 3 or 4 times, eyes always open completely first time and have to put dummy in (she only uses this to settle to sleep), do light rock on one arm - on subsequent stirrings often can just do a light pat/ssssh or just a hand and ssssh. I have to stay for the full 25/30 mins without fail though.

E - Puréed fruit then breast feed:12.45
A - saw friends, baby massage class
S - nap on me (I cracked as fed up of wrestling her in cot!) 3.30pm, wake 4.15pm, had to pat a little

E - puréed veg mixed with baby rice then breast feed: 4.20
A - went for walk, quiet play at home, bath at 6pm
E - Last feed 6.30ish
S - asleep in cot 7.00

We were on two naps rather than three but she now wakes up v early for the day and would be difficult to get her to bedtime in 2 - I don't worry if the third one is quite short. The first nap is the most difficult to extend and often just ends up v short - the other thing that concerns me is the quality of naps if she's actually waking 2-3 times during one - not sure if the actual sleep is any good?! On the longer nap I try and get her through again but usually that becomes quite difficult at around 1 he 40 - but she might've had enough sleep then?
Thanks, any tips much appreciated

[Kellyjs]

It's amazing she can go 2hrs 40 after a short nap hun. That definitely makes me think we need to extend that first A. I would add 15mins on and hold it there for 3 days to see if the nap lengthens.

I would just see how long she naps hun without you going in, unless she cries of course then you go to her immediately. I do think with the extension of the As time you'll be needed less and less to help her through back to sleep.

I do think that 3rd nap needs to go soon, if it is apop'd after a day with bad naps for 15mins, that's not bad at all.. We need to do what we can to get through these transitions.

I think with extending that first A and possibly the second once she does take a longer first nap, you'll run out of time to fit in a CN anyway. BT may need to be brought forward for the time being, but it soon pushes out again.

I would also check for teething too just to make sure wrt the NW's. Do keep me posted ok? Xx

[Caroline83]

Great thanks - do I still extend first A even if she's showing all signs of being ready to go down - don't want to miss it?!

With regard to seeing how long she naps without any help - if this then ends up being super short and she has three 25 min naps, is she not going to be over tired cos she hasn't had enough day sleep?

Agree with poss teething for NW - she also seems to have some bad wind and tummy ache - could be connected to starting solids.xx

[Kellyjs]

Yes! Just try and do something low key if you can. Remember tired cues can be for a variety of reasons now. We need to fix this short napping for you.

She's just started solids you say? How much is she having? Have you noticed a reduction in her milk intake at all? Hmmm I notice you're doing dinner, perhaps try breakfast instead and leave out dinner for a while. That could be the cause of her disturbed nights atm. We didn't start with dinner until DD was 8mo I think. Milk is so much more important at this age, the calories are higher in milk and can sustain them longer.
I would also bf before solids hun. That's for all the meals. Perhaps do your morning bf, solids an hour later? Xx

[Kellyjs]

How things going now hun? Xx

[Caroline83]

Hiya,

Not much change I'm afraid - have tried extending wake time and leaving her to see how long she will go - she's really easy to put down for the nap - but however long she's been awake she will sleep for 25-30 mins - the first time she stirs (end of cycle), she will toss and turn and then wake up. If I do then intervene I will have to stay for about 30mins, as she will fully awake about 3 times.

Any other ideas? She just can't seem to get past this first stage!

Took on board what you said about solids and have stuck to breakfast and lunch with breast feeds first. Night waking btw is worse than ever at the mo, sometimes every hour or so...!x

[creations]

I feel I have to sit by the cot just in case - which three times a day is becoming quite stressful and I don't want to do it forever!

Hi there.
I just wanted to suggest working on one nap per day which can feel a whole lot better for you.  I generally go for the first nap to work on so I'd do a longer A time and then the W2S where you go in at 25 mins and begin the transition help to get a good nap.  The W2S shouldn't go on for ever, part of it is helping her transition so she gets a better sleep but part of it is showing and teaching her to take a longer nap.  A LO can form a habit of fully waking when they reach the end of a sleep cycle, and the W2S is a training method to get her into a different habit.
The W2S is usually three days and then on the fourth you hold off to see how long the nap lasts, if its short you do another three days W2S.
I think you need a much longer first A time to get her good and tired so that she has the best chance of transitioning with help then without help.  With such short, 30 min naps, I wouldn't be afraid of OT because the naps can't really get much worse can they?  I mean there is a slight chance of OT causing a WU at 10 mins but I'd take that chance as OT is usually a better bet for resettling.

[Caroline83]

Okay, I'll try that, thanks. I can stretch her first A time to 2 h 40 or 50, or even 3 hours if we're doing stuff. She's definitely ready for a nap when I put her down. With W2S - should I be helping with the transition before it starts almost, so lightly waking her/then helping before she would naturally start to stir? Will try starting today with first nap and do the 3 days.

[creations]

This link helps to describe the W2S and the different options
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Helpful to read all of it but particularly the naps option 1
For your LO you need to go in earlier than the FAQ says as she seems to be waking at 30min  which is why I recommend going in at 25 mins (or even at 20 mins, I know it cuts your Y time down but if this works it's well worth it).  The option 1 method is not a disturbance of the sleep it is help transitioning.  you can begin before she rouses or wait until the very first rouse but I do mean the very first, have your hand right there waiting, even on her lightly - this method is not about responding to cries or call outs, it is a method to use long before that.
The FAQ says to use shush/pat I would use your adapted rocking method.  I used to put my hand on DS's nappy area and move my arm/hand in a rocking motion as he didn't like patting.  The rocking can be weaning like patting is by reducing so don't worry about props, it's also far better to be rocking in the cot than in arms, she learns to transition whilst feeling the weight of her body on the mattress which is different to the weightless feeling of being held in arms.

As with any method you have to expect to put in some work and only do it if you feel comfortable with the approach.  If you can get that first nap sorted you can have a break of a few days before tackling nap 2 if you want

[Caroline83]

Great thanks - tried with first nap today and had to put hand on and do (only very light) rock about 3 times - she then slept for another half an hour on her own so 90 mins in total. Do I then assume she's awake because she's ready to wake up or try for another extension? Obv 90mins big improvement! Second nap 20mins as I didn't go in... Will keep trying for 3 days for first nap - thanks both for all the advice.

My original reason for posting was naps - however we are having horrendous nights at the mo. We starting working on these about a month ago - she'd always been fed to sleep and slept for up to about 10 hours straight (then quick feed and another couple of hours) so never a problem. When she started waking more frequently and I didn't want to feed her each time and transfer, we started working on going down more awake and settling (bit of patting, rocking, hands pressure, sometimes dummy to calm) in cot - we are still working on this but it has got a lot quicker to settle her, both my husband and I can now do it, and she is hopefully eventually going to be able to do it without support. Things were getting much better too - she was going a good stretch at the beginning of the night, up to 6/7 hours, then we were working on the more fragmented stretches after that.

However, last 5 nights or so she has literally been waking up after 45mins to an hour - all night! Last night we got a 3 hr stint from 10 til 1, but sometimes that doesn't happen. We put her down at 6.50 tonight - already been in to resettle - and we do leave her to see if she'll back herself. It's like something is waking her - and as we're still working on it, she needs our help - but again, it feels like it's getting worse and will be like this forever! Have tried teething pain relief if she's esp distressed in case it's that. Should I post this on NW on different board?!
Taking her to docs tmrw too in case any underlying issues. Any thoughts?xx

[creations]

Maybe a growth spurt? although 5 nights sounds a bit on the long side for that.
Teeth, have you tried meds before BT rather than waiting for her to wake?
Could be a developmental leap, mine always slept badly when he was having a developmental leap (rather than growing in weight/length it seems to be pure brain work) and then he'd suddenly be able to do something new and the sleep would settle again.  Is she learning to roll or sit perhaps?  New foods she could be dreaming of? Gas?

[Kellyjs]

I too would vote for teeth or developmental issues. I would keep to the same thread if you don't mind hun, as I'll probably only end up posting on your new thread and we'll have two going 

Amazing news about the nap, that's a very decent length of a nap and a huge improvement, go you! It will get better, I promise. Especially now as creations is here.. When I mentioned in my first post I'd battled with short naps, it was creations that helped me with that all those many moons ago

[Caroline83]

Thanks so much both of you - docs was fine so yep, have to think teething and hope gets better. She learnt to roll both ways about a month ago, it did cause wakes at the time but think that's passed now. Last night was much better and we'd given med/teething gel before bed - will keep you posted with nights after we've tried with that for a bit longer.

Interesting day naps wise - Wake time much longer than normal as were out and had docs appt so had to be awake. Had decided not to worry too much about nap, thought she'd have half an hour in pram and I could work on a long one in cot later. However, she had an hour and 20mins! She did stir twice and opened her eyes - both times I pushed the pram v briefly and she went back. The last stretch was a solid 50mins without anything from me - and we were stationary (enjoying a lovely brekkie with my hubby!). So longer wake time seems like good answer. So today looked something like this:

Wake 5am (morning a bit odd, woke v early and tried to resettle for ages, eventually gave up!)
E - breast feed 6 am
A
S - 6.45 - 7.35 (again, saw this as almost an extension of the night!)

A - included solids about 8 am
E - breast feed 9am
A
S - 11am - 12.20

E - breast feed 12.20
A - including solids at about 1.40
S - 3.20 - 3.55 (really hard time extending and had to abort!)

E - breast feed 4pm
A
E - small breast feed 6pm
A - including bath time etc
S - asleep I imagine 7ish

So - a few questions:
1) how much day sleep I am trying to go for? I've read 3-4 hrs, she never gets close to 4, perhaps 2.5 to 3 on a good day - I don't want to stretch too far esp on aft nap as then will interfere with BT...
2) BT - if the aft nap gets longer on a day like today (eg if she's had an hour  ish she'd have woken 4.30ish), what kind of time can I realistically aim for her to be asleep - she's usually much more settled if she is asleep as close to 7pm as poss, would this work with poss 4.30 end of nap?
3) in the transition help - should it be constant - (eg keep hands on lightly throughout light sleep) or remove hands when settled, ready to see if needed again...