2-1 Transition - how much APOP'ing ok? Napping on us a lot... nervous!

[chauncycay]

Hi ladies - I'm moving this from 2-1 on the toddler board as suggested by Trimblr on a new topic here - thank you!

My DD is just shy of her 1 year (ack! too fast!) and naps have never been great.  Never over 1.15h (once, 1.45, once...) and usually closer to the 40-60 min.

So now we're at some nap refusals, major teething, learning to walk (crazy cruising and occasional across the room!), and if a nap, 30 mins max, sometimes on a parent.

Lots of NW, EW, but super happy any time she's not being put to bed.  Generally laughing, playing and non stop movement - on 2 x 30 min naps and BT ~7p and up ~4 times at night, sometimes for an hour or two of PU/PD crying, and then up ~6:30a.
Disaster.  But happy?! It's weird.

So this has been for two weeks, before she'd long nap, short nap and get to BT pretty ok with 2-3 WU and some EW (never great!).  We think its time to start the 2-1 nap transition. I'm thinking closer to cold turkey - big push for that first nap.

This worked for paci wean, night wean and PU/PD EASY reset at 6 mons.  It was a bad 9 days but then we had ~2 months of 11 hour sleep at night! and then she started teething and crawling... hmm.

So if our schedule (ish) is:
7a WU (whenever she wakes before 7am I keep her in the dark bedroom and hold her until 7am to diaper change and nurse, she CNs generally)
7:15a E nurse
8a breakfast with us, solids

10a Nap (30 m or the before 1.15h) - this is the problem - and because of the erratic WU times and letting her CN on us until 7am this sometimes pushes to 10:30 anyway.

11a E bottle BM
12p E lunch with us
2p Nap (30-40 m)
3p E Bottle BM
4p E solids/snacks
5:45p dinner with us
6:15p bath
6:30-45 bottle BM
7p BT

We've done this the past two days:
6:30a WU, keep dark and quiet and CN on me in her room
7:15a E nurse
8a breakfast with us, solids
11a Nap (30 min first day, 40 min second day, 1 hour today)
12p E
3p E Bottle BM /nurse/ CN
4p E solids/snacks
5:40p dinner with us
6:00p bath
6:15 bottle BM
6:30p BT

How much napping on parents is ok for the transition?  Are we undermining our efforts? I'm lost.

Over holding has been our AP issue.  That's why we did PU/PD at 6 months and removed all of the props.
I don't want to be crazy strict this time if she's also teething, growth spurt and learning to walk.  But I want her to get sleep! (and us)
Any advice welcome! Thank you!

[chauncycay]

Sorry that second 3p CN has been ~30 mins.

and night wakings have been up at the 30-40 min in mark (always - OT).
and then 1 to 4 times more before WU.

Last night she was up at 8p, then not until 1:30am, then WU 6:30am.
I consider that a success! But the naps are rubbish and this is not enough sleep for her so I know we need to keep at it.

She's done 11 hours straight through for us before - for 6 weeks, so I know she can!  She's just never napped well.
Oh, and we have blackout curtains and a sound machine and a sleep sack for her.  And lavendar spray. It's like a spa in her nursery!

[Kellyjs]

I would probably only apop the one nap a day hun or else it could turn into a prop.

The idea with the 2-1 is to preserve that one longish nap you have, push it later and hope it gets longer. Then you can apop a CN to get to a reasonable BT.

It seems like you want the first nap to be the longest is that right? I would definitely move both the naps out a little to space your day better so you don't have to deal with those OT NW's. Some OT is to be expected during the transition but if we can put the naps in a place where that's less likely I think that'll help you.

How do you feel about set naps? This would mean you set the time of the naps irrelevant of wu time. It can be really useful for those wanting a longer first nap and shorter CN later on.

I would push that first nap straight to 11.30am hun, hope for 1.5hrs, then try a CN at 4 for a max of 30mins for now. I think this will have to be adjusted as you might find she's not quite tired enough for BT at 7pm or actually 7.30pm might be better, but I think it's a good starting point. It looks like you want your day to start around 7am, so a BT of around 8pm during the transition should be ok if it fits in with family life. Wdyt?  Xx

[chauncycay]

Excellent advice thank you!!!
I knew we almost had the right idea :-)
Ok set naps sound perfect. Much easier for my dh and I to sync on.
11:30 we'll set for tomorrow.
She just only did a 30 minute nap at 11 today. He's in there trying to keep her down.
I just came in the house with her bottle.
So for apop'ing should I no longer let her CN on me right after WU and set that first nap and apop the CN at 4p?
What if she wakes up from the first nap at the 30/40 ? Then do we keep the set nap at 4p, or make it 3p (3 hours in between) & keep a 7p BT?
What A time are we going for?
I love the set nap. Maybe that's what you stick to even if they do 30 minutes. She's unfortunately an expert at the 30 minute nap and crazy OT. Poor thing

[chauncycay]

Sorry and yes, shooting for 7-7 schedule with long am nap as her standard to date.

[Kellyjs]

I'm really hoping she'll settle into a long nap first thing, especially with the new Set times. The idea is now we do away with A times for now and set the day so she can regulate. There may be some OT, but she's old enough to deal with it a lot better than if she were younger. It's a case of riding it out I'm afraid, but it will get better.

If she does wake early from that first nap, I would bring the next nap forward by 30mins but that's it. See if she sleeps an hour and keep BT the same.

Have you tried w2s before hun? I found it invaluable when we were setting the first nap as the long one. I went in 10mins before she usually stirred and placed my hand on her shoulder until she roused ever so slightly And the breathing changed a little, I then backed quietly out of the room. Do you fancy giving it a go? Xx

How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

Eta I'm wondering if she's waking early from that nap because of hunger hun? Do you fancy giving her a large snack to see her through? Some toast or a banana should do the trick. Some people split lunch around now as the timings get a bit tricky, so half before the nap and half after?mthat could be an idea.

Oh and as well, try to get her back to sleep in the morning if you can, if at all possible try and keep her in her bed but you can sit beside her if it helps? Use your words that it's still nighttime, then make a huge fuss when you get to 7am with the lights on and bright cheery good morning xx

[chauncycay]

Lovely ideas thank you!
Yes we definitely had a growth spurt so we're giving her lots of protein, eggs for breakfast after nursing, grilled salmon, turkey, she's even had pork loin! (Dh is a great cook). I swear she eats better than we do, we focus on feeding her first :-)
He's giving her food at the 10:30 time now to avoid having her OT and hungry going down. Good call.

W2s scares me! She's such a light sleeper, but we'll add that one in after a few days of set naps.
I talked to dh and we both love the set nap idea.
It's a go!
Many many thanks and I'll keep posting results. I know we have a ways to go!

[chauncycay]

Oh one last question, what time should BT be if she only naps for 40 minutes in the a.m. and another 30 minutes @4p? (Guessing that's what will happen today, we did 11am, 40 minutes and we'll try at 3:30p for a nap. So BT at 6:30 (start bottle then)? (Goal is 7ish)
She's been taking from 6:30p bottle to 7:30 down, crazy OT (I think) hyper active, crawling on me, talking wriggling, crawling in crib, winding herself up to a minor frenzy. I have to massage in crib and use repetitive nighttime sleep words, and pu/pd once she starts standing in the crib and crying.
It's a mess!
Does that mean I'm too late or too early or it is just the overall OT crazy?

[Kellyjs]

Sorry hun, I should've given you this link Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When

That explains it much better  . So BT can only be a maximum of 30mins earlier if you can see. OT will happen on days like this but we'll need to stick with it for at least a week to see a predictable pattern.

Today I would've had her down at 6.30, given how the day was with the naps, but hey ho, don't worry.

It might help if I tell you what happened to us? I chose set naps and BT to get us through the 2-1. I set the nap at 11am (I think?) and 3.30pm for BT at 7. She's always taken 30mins to go to sleep at night so that gave us a 13-hr day with wu at 6.30 (this hardly ever happened, more like 5.30-6, but kept her in bed as long as possible).

Once she started to refuse the pm nap more often that not, I moved the set nap to 11.30 and held it for a week. We had consistent 1.5hr naps, with no pm nap. BT was at 6.30/45 (in accordance with moving BT earlier by 30mins max). I can't remember if the EW got better or not, but that's the beauty of it, I wasn't lying awake wondering when to count the A time from  , I could just doze.

However, we were getting OT NW's in the earlier part of the night. Typically in the first hour after BT. So I knew I had to move the nap on. Jumped to 12pm for nap straight away and held for another 2 weeks or so. Finally got 2-2.5hr naps! BT moved back to 7. Thought I'd cracked it then she started waking at 1.5hrs again for her nap. Again OT NW's in the early part of the night. Jumped it again by 30mins to 12.30pm for a 2 hr nap with BT at 7 and it stayed that way for well over a year (well BT moved a little later, but that's it!)

A couple of things I did do was apop the odd car nap at 9am if I saw OT was setting in, but I wasn't putting her to bed so felt I was still being consistent. However, this bit probably won't apply to you until you're further down the line with the 2-1  .

I just wanted to share what I went through. Yes there was some OT but it was so much easier than all the guessing about A times. And yes, I did have to move the set time, but after those weeks I felt like I had a true understanding on what was going on. Do you see what I mean? Xx

[chauncycay]

Wow!
Ok super helpful.
The day's not done here so dh is trying to cn her at 3p ish. We'll start bath at 6p to get bottle before 6:30 & down. Problem is I never know if it's going to take her 10 minutes or two hours (seriously) to settle down to sleep.
She's highly unpredictable in that area even though we have a very set routine, sleep queues.
Ok morning...
So if she wakes at 5:45 let's say, keep her in bed if possible(though she stands up and starts the talking/crawling crazy dance).
If she won't go back to sleep or calm in crib can I pick her up and let her relax/cn on me? Or no?
Best effort in to push to 7a, happy good morning lights, etc.
Then for the a.m. nap(she never sleeps in the car or anywhere else really) hold off for her with activity!!! to set nap of 11:30 (even if she's up at 5:45?).

What would her success look like? She's never napped ever over 1h45 minutes. She's only done that once. We had good 1h15min morning naps for weeks, and the 40 minute afternoon nap. I honestly can't ever imagine her napping longer than an hour and a half :-) that's like a dream!

No math. I LOVE that!
Then

[chauncycay]

I just read the set naps thread. All much clearer. Set, only a +/- 15 minutes on nap times and +/- 30 minutes on BT.

Do you account for the wind down in set times and we're talking set time would indicate eyes closed in bed?

[chauncycay]

So she 40 min napped at 3p.
6:20 bath, 6:40 bottle and hit her down at 7:25p
I swear it's been exactly that the past two nights.
We shall see!
Last night she was up only at midnight for a quick 15 minutes, pd/words.
Then back up at 1am... for almost two hours of chaos babbling, crawling in crib, pu/pd. Exhausting.
I'm really hoping we don't get into that again
It's "wine" down time before bed for me :-)
Some day we will get to enjoy the lovely dinners my dh makes for us and little miss and I will help be his sous chefs!
Cheers Kelly! XoxOxoxo

[Kellyjs]

I need the wine time too hun, with you all the way there! 

Hmmm if she is consistently waking around that time perhaps we bring back the set nap to 11am wdyt? We can always move it back out again in a week or so? It is a risk as we know she short napped yesterday with that time but perhaps w2s 20mins after she falls asleep might work?? Yes set times would ideally be the time into bed, rather than eyes closed unlike A time.

It's totally up to you int  he morning hun, personally I'd try not to, but then I do miss all those cuddles, so might be worth getting some in before she gets too big 

I'm really hoping with the set naps and BT all this playing around with BT will get better hun.

Are these NW's new hun? Since she started short napping? Xx

[chauncycay]

So last night she went down at 7:30p, and stayed down until 1am (woo hoo!)
Quick pd and stayed down until 3:30am, I gave her ibuprofen since she was chewing on her little hand covers on her pjs... Then I noticed she was a tiny bit wet down one leg.
Ugh. So a diaper change and pj change in the dark and about an hour to get her settled (mostly pd, words,  a bit of talking and wiggling around).
Then down until 6:45 am :-) :-) :-) :-) I pd in the crib and rubbed her back and let her talk softly until lights on at 7a.m. Woo hoo!
Success?
The NW have been pretty much the norm, once or twice but not by the clock so I know it's not habit but rather either OT (h the ones early in the evening) or the teething/growth pains or hunger.
I might weaned her at 6 months so we've just been trying to feed her every chance we get during the day and lots of protein at meals. She gets 6oz bottles of bm at (was) 11am, nite when she's up and dh gives her food about 30 minutes before the nap, and 3p, same adjustment, and before bed. I nurse her after wu/diaper change. So she's got plenty of milk, every meal we have about an hour after/before milk abd we feed her solids. She also gets snacks (loves the rice puffs! & avocado) in between and those puree organic pouches of fruit and veg.
So I'm hoping it's not hunger, but she's seriously *never* still! :-)
I assume with two NW in a row like last night that she's uncomfortable enough to need something so with teething I've been giving her a dose of ibuprofen if she seems chewy. We started giving her one with dinner before bed to help avoid this but it wears off after 6 hours. I hate medication, but she needs to be comfortable to sleep which is more important.

So dh is going to try 11:30a.m for the set nap. I asked him ~15 minutes +/- if possible. I'm about to finish morning meetings so I'll go check in.
Set time = time into the bedroom, or crib with her little antics :-)
Whew, eyes closed is definitely beyond the 15 minutes...
She's so dang funny and cute! I wouldn't have her little spirited self any other way. *sigh

[Kellyjs]

Huge success I'd say, yay! 

I hate medication too hun, rarely use it for myself.  However, I'm of the opinion if it helps them be more rested then at least they might cope with the pain a little better. We're teething here too atm so I feel your pain. Mind you, these are the last ones! Woo hoo!

Some find dream meds help. Ideally with the syringe. I've never managed to get it right personally, she always wakes up  as she did with the DF back in the day. Might be worth a go for you though? Either that or wait for the NW that's close to after 6hrs since the last dose. I tend to do that during teething xx