Help with 2nd nap needed

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Got you on your toes eh?
Well, I can only recommend that you record what happened and look to see what happens over night. If it happens again we may see a pattern which could help us work out if he needs two long naps or one long one short.

Hope you figured something out for BT xx (I'm sure you did)

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Yeah I'll say, I have no idea what I'm doing with this boy!! He woke himself after 50 mins which was 4.40pm. I was going to stick with 7.30 Bt but dh put him soon at 7.15 as he said he could hardly keep him awake. He fell asleep pretty much straight away. Fingers crossed for tonight, we had a horrible nw last night, I don't fancy a repeat!

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I don't know whether to stick with this or try something else. He is so tired all the time. He falls asleep at 9am on school run and falls asleep on mid morning, afternoon and bed time bottles. He also falls asleep the second we get in the car which is making it difficult to go anywhere. We are still getting between 10 and 10hr30 nights which is obviously just not enough. I'm not sure what to do.

He's a complete mess this morning, rubbing his eyes and crying all through his 7am bottle. I really need some help.

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Ok I'm sorry for all the posts but I just need to get this out. I dont know which direction to go in with him. My head is spinning with so many different things.
Should I stick to what I'm doing and he has a massive A to to 1st nap and ends up with a really long day? Or Should I bring 1st nap forward? Should I do a later bedtime to ensure he is tired enough after last nap but then his day is ridiculously long? Should I do early Bt and hope he doesn't wake even earlier? Is he waking through ut or OT? All these questions running through my head and I don't know any answers.  It's not so much the actual wake up time (although I don't like it) and more to do with whether he is getting enough sleep.  Today he fell asleep at 9.10 on the school run and I couldn't wake him so left him til he woke at 11.10. Now his next nap is due when I'm on school run so he will have to have an early one or a late one.

Again I'm so sorry for going off on one, I just need to get it out!

One thing I did notice is that when he was sleeping til 7am he was having 1hr30 night wakings so technically of 10hr30 night sleep then too.

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It's ok, you off-load xx

I think I am swayed by knowing that mine only did 10.5hr nights and that looking for longer was just to put myself through stress and worry that he wasn't getting long enough over night, but he literally could not do more.

Not sure what time he woke when he was crying and eye rubbing at 7am, could it be that he is actually still having a 1.5hr night wake but that it has moved later?  So he is waking say 5.30am and by 7am ready to sleep again to finish his night sleep?
Are you even in a position to let him sleep at 7am? With the school run I mean, I imagine your morning is pretty strict on timing to get everyone fed, washed and dressed to get out in time.  Could he sleep 7-8.30 for instance if it was to happen again and then literally just lift him up to dash out to school??

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He woke at 5.30 this morning after a 10 hour night. I don't know about the night waking just moving, and I just wouldn't have the time to put him down properly with wind down etc at 7. How would that impact the rest of the day anyway?
I'm wondering if this ot really started after he refused that nap. He didn't used to act tired at 7am after a 5/5.30 wake up. Is it possible it's come from that?
To be honest I'd be OK I think with consistent 10hr30 night but we get 10hr too. When yours did 10hr 30 nights, how much was he getting in naps?

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I don't remember exactly which routine we were on at 7 months but it was likely 2hr morning nap then 2 x 40 min CNs although by then it might have been 2hr morning and 1 x 40 min CN, sorry that isn't particularly helpful as I don't remember without searching the threads from 4 years back to see what I was doing.

How many days has he been falling to sleep at 9am ish? is it just one or two?
Thing is with a 5.30am WU that's 3.5hr A time which is kind of okay, it's just at the wrong time of day!

IIWM, if he has an EW over the weekend and is tired at 7 or any time before I'd try to get him back down for a sleep. Wake him at 7.30/8am to start the day and class that extra sleep as part of a broken night. This would give you a chance to have a 'get back on track' day where his nap would then come at a more reasonable 10.45/11.00/11.15 or even 11.30 and hopefully the rest of teh day would start to bring you back on a better routine before Monday's school run.

Sorry this is so hard right now.

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Thank you so much for your help, I really do appreciate it.
So his routine is basically the same as you had with the 2hr am and 40m pm which makes me feel better! And if I can get 10hr30 night instead of 10 then it will be OK I think. What A time did you have after the 40 min nap, can you remember? He wakes usually at around 4.30pm/5pm and that seems late in the day compared to other kids, but I suppose it's cos he has long A times.
When he wakes early would you try a feed and back down? I've no idea if he would go back down.
I'll see if he continues to be tired at 7am,  I'm sure it only started after he missed that nap so hopefully won't last. To be honest he always wants to fall asleep around 9 on the school run, but today he really did and I couldn't wake him. He slept 2 hours then went back down 3 hours later for 55 mins.

Another thought, if we manage to get back on track to where we were, won't we just end up in the same position again? So if I manage to get naps back to 10.45 and 4pm.wont he just end  up doing the short nights again as that's the easy we were on when they started? Hope that makes sense? Or should I start a new easy based on his current wake time and then if he starts doing longer nights try to shift it later?

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What A time did you have after the 40 min nap, can you remember?

Honestly I do not remember exactly our different routines at different ages.
I do remember my DS always had a very short last A time.  Whilst i can't remember his times something like a 2hr last A time sounds like that's what he might have done (long first A, long nap, then either 2 40 min or 1 40 min nap, I think at 7 months it was likely two and then in another couple of month maybe 1 CN, short last A to BT and quite a short night).  I'm trying to remember what time he ate after his CN, I think he woke something like 4ish and dinner about 4.15/30 and I think BT was 7 with WU about 5/5.30am.
We did not have a perfect routine btw

Another thought, if we manage to get back on track to where we were, won't we just end up in the same position again?

Let's see where he is up to in a couple of days, let him have a chance to catch up if he is OT and see if any of this is permanent or was a one off.  If he wants to nap earlier, say 9am, every day and sleep for 2hr it isn't really a problem other than it encourages him to keep waking very early which I'm sure you don't want.

When he wakes early would you try a feed and back down? I've no idea if he would go back down.

Just thinking it could kick start an improved routine so really it's just one day it needs to happen so that he can have a sleep then wake (you cap if needed) a decent A, nap at a reasonable time...so that the whole day can move on and by Monday he is waking a bit later and not nodding off on the school run.
it's a bit of a long shot but it could work.

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I really hope it's that easy! It just doesn't seem like he will suddenly start sleeping longer nights doing the same routine  he was on with the short nights iyswim? Sorry you must think I'm a right pain! I'm just getting myself confused as I kind of thought it was his original easy that was causing the ew in the  first place.

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Ok so he had a nw at 3am til 4am self settled without me. Woke at 5.45 I fed but wouldn't go back to sleep. It was a 10hr15 night. Got him up at 6.30. Tried to put back down at 7.  Wouldn't sleep. Then fell asleep on the carpet at 9.50. I think I'm breaking him! I don't know whether I should be keeping him up to normal nap time or am I doing more damage?!

I'm going to persevere with feeding when he wakeswakes and putting him back down. Do you think it's possible it will start to work if I keep at it?

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Yesterday ended up like this

7th
Wu 5.45
Oob 6.30
S 10.15 to 11.45
S 3.20 to 4.40
Bt 7.30
Wu 4 45 to 6 45 fed at 5am
Wu 7.10

So we had 10hr45 night sleep which I'm happy with as I don't think we are going to get to 11 hrs so aiming for 10hr 30.
He seems a lot happier this morning so far. I think I'll go for nap just before 11 and go from there. Do you think that's a good idea?
Sorry for being such a drama Queen lately, I've told myself to calm down!

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Wu 4 45 to 6 45

Is this a 2hr NW??

It just doesn't seem like he will suddenly start sleeping longer nights doing the same routine  he was on with the short nights iyswim?

I don't think I'm suggesting the same routine. But he stopped the NWs shortly after this thread started didn't he, and then started waking early instead of having long NWs.
And skipped a nap...

If feeding at 5am gets him back to sleep for a bit more night sleep I think I'd go for that, only really because I would have with mine, I hate the early starts but DS wouldn’t eat when he woke and certainly wouldn't go back to sleep so it wasn't an option for me.

Is the room blacked out well? Could the seasons changing and different light be having an affect do you think?

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Sorry that was meant to say 4.45 to 5.45! Awake for 1 hour. I'm happy to keep feeding at 5, definitely.
Yes you are right  the long nws stopped and we had ew instead. Then after about a week of that he skipped the nap. Then that's when the ot hit I think. He wasnt too bad before  that I don't think.
His room is total blackout!
So I'm thinking 10.45 nap which is what we were going for before the ot hit. What do you think? For up to 2 hour or cap at 1hr30?

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Sorry that was meant to say 4.45 to 5.45! Awake for 1 hour. I'm happy to keep feeding at 5, definitely.

Ah 1hr - that's much better.  I know feeding at 5am is not as nice as sleeping at 5 am but going back to sleep until a reasonable time is good though

OK, he woke at 7.10 so I think I'd be tempted to go up to 11am nap I think you suggested this at one point too?  I just don't want his first nap to come too soon and his wake up time to get earlier or even refuse to go back to sleep after the 5am feed.  What do you think? That would be close to 4hr A though, it sounds very long but he seemed to be doing that and a good nap didn't he?
I'd see if he does 2hr nap then a CN later on.

Would it look something like this or do you feel the afternoon and BT wouldn't be suitable??
Just wondering what your routine might look like and trying to allow for the shorter night.  I wonder too if that 5am feed could move to 7am if BT went later.
WU 7
A 4
S 11 - 1
A 3 or 3hr 30
S 4 - 4.30 or 4.30 - 5 or even 4-5 ?
A 3hr
BT 8

Sorry I don't have all the answers - but you are with him and have a much better idea of how things are going and what your own feeling is about it. x