Help with the 2-1 transition

[Tabathagucci]

Now naps are a mess again and I can't tell if she's overtired or undertired.  Sigh... not sure how to get back on track!

[creations]

Hi there - I expect Lindsay will be back when she can - meanwhile I thought I'd drop by.

she likes a fairly short second A time and an even shorter third A time, I need to push her am nap even later.

This is just how my DS was.  Ultra long first A time (when we went off track pretty much everyone would say OT as his A was so long, it was a lone-voice would suggest UT and was right), shorter second A and an even short last A time to BT.
If naps have gone off track again I would consider moving that first nap a bit later again.  Based on what you've said so far about nap length, A times etc.
She could be close to dropping the second nap.  Mine dropped his between11-12 months. it was pretty messy over that transition period tbh but we got there.

Those NWs where she lays awake but quietly - leave her, it's fine.  Tracy mentions these in the BW books and says it is common for LOs to spend a considerable amount of time awake in the night and eventually fall back to sleep.  When these happen we do look at routine just to check that nothing obvious needs changing but if routine is basically okay then just put it down to developmental.  Keep naps at the same time rather than bringing the morning nap earlier to compensate for the shorter night. Chances are LO does not need an earlier nap but we can be tempted and then get in a pickle with nap length and times.  If you are viewing her on a monitor and see her awake just pretend you have no video monitor - LOs shout and cry when they need you, if she is in need she will let you know.

WRT getting back on track I'd go immediately back to the time you were doing morning nap and then next day move it 10 mins later.
hope this helps

[Tabathagucci]

thank you!  Yes most people suggest OT and it has been the lone voices on here suggesting UT that have helped me so much over the last few months! 😊 I had just pushed her A time from 3h40m to 4h10m, which was working briefly.  I have tried keeping it at that even when she has her night wakings and I get awful OT naps and even have to nurse her to sleep sometimes. So I'm wondering, maybe she needs more total A time during the day???  I've been thinking about it over the past few days a lot.  I was chalking it up to developmental but we just finished a developmental leap with these night wakings (in the very early am) and she had gone back to normal for a few days, then short naps, so I pushed A time, which got me longer naps, then the wakings happened again.  Anyway just a thought! There have been a couple times here and there where her last A time was longer because of short naps and refusing to take a third and she did ok.
Thanks so much again for your response!!!

[creations]

Ah I see what you're saying - the longer nap ends up in NWs, hmm so if tried enough for a good nap the result looks like UT for night sleep. Are the NWs chatty though?  I can remember cot-parties in the middle of the night but I can also remember another time of him just being awake. I guessed the cot parties were UT NWs but the just being awake NWs were developmental and he got over it.

Have you tried capping the second nap shorter after a good first nap to keep the overall day sleep to a relatively consistent amount?
We didn't really get a proper routine back until the second nap was gone and my DS took a while to work through the OT caused by having only one nap - eek it was a messy time.  It could also be that BT needs to go a bit later until that second nap is dropped.  If I remember correctly my DS's moved to 7.30 then 8pm with the second nap in, until he had 1 nap with EBT.

[Tabathagucci]

I was actually thinking I need to stretch the A time before bed. Her second nap is already short and many days we have trouble making it to a reasonable bed time (6:30).  We accidentally had 3h45m before bed last night, she fell asleep at 7:30.  She woke up crying a couple times early in the night but went back to sleep so imagine she was OT and I'll get an early wake up (it's almost 5:30 am here and she's starting to fidget) but as far as I can tell she didn't wake before.
Her wakings have been typically quiet or fussy, not chatty.  Anyway, I will just have to expect messiness for at least a couple more months (something I don't do well with!) or more.  She can't seem to handle much more than 4 hours A time so don't think she's ready for 1 nap yet!

[creations]

If you feel the overall day needs to be longer and she likes a longer first A time then perhaps just increase that one and leave the other two shorter?  I was always amazed when I saw other LOs routines with equal A times through the day a mine couldn't do that at all.

What time did she get up in teh end? Just wondering how her night turned out and if you got an OT EW or if she managed to get through to a reasonable time?

[Tabathagucci]

I've been waking up every 15-30 mins looking at the monitor to see if she's waking up (not on purpose, my mind can't help it!).  So this morning it seemed like she slept through.  However, she was asleep at 5:15, but I fell back to sleep until 5:55, at which point I woke up and she was already awake and laying there quietly. So now I have no idea when she woke up and have to guess what time to put her down for nap 1 because she hasn't been giving me many clues!  At any rate, this means she slept at least 10.5 hours, possibly 11 (she fell asleep at 6:45 pm), so I suppose that's progress.  She only napped a total of 1h10m yesterday so was hoping for more like 11.5.  I thought things would be great once she slept through the night but these early mornings are tough!

[Tabathagucci]

So sorry just saw your response!  She ended up waking up at 5:30/5:40 yesterday, it was hard to tell because she's been rolling around with her eyes closed for 10 mins or more lately, then her eyes open.  So I got about 10 hours, which seems like OT EW.  I had to APOP and nurse her back to sleep because we had music class and she never would have made it through and it's too expensive to miss!!! 😊
Anyway, last night I put her down at 3 hours and 10 mins for the last A time and she fell asleep at 3.5 hours (15 mins shorter than previous night) and I got 10.5-11 hours night sleep, still on the short side after a short nap day. Wondering if I should try putting her down at 3 hours for the last A time tonight and see if she sleeps through now???  Of course I won't have any idea how long her first A time is so it makes it a little harder to see how long her total day is.  But tomorrow is another day!

[creations]

Yes I would try reducing the A before BT again, 3hr as you said.  As you are getting the early morning WU anyway I doubt it can be so much worse so it is worth a try.

For the nap time I think you can move towards something near a "set" time now rather than worrying too much exactly when she woke up in the morning. Once on 1 nap a set time for nap and BT works better for most LOs.  At this point you could aim for a "set" and be flexible if needed.  I would just get to close to whatever time she's been going down recently - not too short an A time so as to discourage the NW and make sure the first nap is a decent one.

...and stop waking up to watch her!  You need to get some sleep for yourself too

[Tabathagucci]

Soooo, i tried the 3 hours last night.  Even put her down at 2h55m.  She fell asleep at 3h10m, 6:55 pm.  She only slept 10h40m overnight, waking at 5:35 am.  I used the be able to put her down early and she'd sleep 11-12 hours. 
I was using a mix of A time and a set time for naps, using 10-10:15 for the latest time I would put her down because she seemed to sleep short naps if put down any later.  If she woke early, I'd use A time.  She can't seem to handle much more than 4 hours A time so if I don't know when she wakes, and she's waking early, I can't even make it to 10.  And I feel like I have to wake up otherwise I have no idea if she's awake over 4 hours or not.  Honestly, I'm afraid to use a set time!  I just wish there was something I could tweak to get those longer nights back or at least get her to sleep till 6 am!  Trying to quietly entertain a baby while the rest of the house sleeps for 2 more hours is exhausting!

[Tabathagucci]

I guess I feel like I need to know when she wakes until we get back on track.  Maybe now she's EW because her morning A time is too short.  At least I'm not getting the weird middle of the early am wakings for now sonmaybe I can work on her morning A time again and see if I can stretch it?

[creations]

So you did get a slightly longer night with the shorter A time before BT - that's a good hunch you followed there!

Yeah, I understand you don't want the rest of the house woken etc so you want to be aware of her sleep times, I am worried you are keeping yourself up too much in the night though, YOU need sleep too honey!

We usually advise set naps around the time they are 12 months and on one nap - really your LO is not far from this so it would be totally reasonable to set her nap at say 10.30am (4.5hr from a 6am WU) and just keep it there.  it would likely help to discourage the too early WU.

I used the be able to put her down early and she'd sleep 11-12 hours.

The chances are this is going to happen again when things settle down.

[Tabathagucci]

Ok I'm willing to try it! It would certainly simplify matters...  so can you possibly tell me how I get there?  Just keep her up till 10:30 every morning no matter what and she gets used to it?  This morning's A time was 4 hours and I got a 1h20m nap. 
Thank you again, it helps so much to have support through this!!!

[Tabathagucci]

So the last 2 morning she woke at around 4, I ends up having to nurse her but she went back to sleep until later 7 am.   A 10:30 nap time was no problem. I got a 55 min nap the first day and 30 mins the next.  Today I woke at 5:55 and she was already awake.  It seemed like she was just waking up but I have no way of knowing.  So obviously 10:30 is more than 4.5 hours and too long so when do I put her down? 
Thank you!

[Tabathagucci]

The longest A time I've even done with her in the am was 4h10m and that was at least 2 weeks ago.