Author Topic: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?  (Read 9142 times)

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Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2017, 21:15:24 pm »
Yes, naps are disrupted on average 1.5 weeks per month I'd say. They're little humans, not robots and yes, they're pretty variable in most things they do. The routine does sertle and there will be good periods in between but there will be disruptions for the next few years. They'll become less frequent as she gets older.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2017, 01:10:05 am »
Maybe we're just in a developmental short nap phase... or maybe she is *really* low sleep needs =\  For the past couple days she's gone to bed at 10:00pm and woken up at 8:45am.  So just under 11 hours of night sleep.

Yesterday, she woke from a nap at 4:30pm and didn't go down until 8:00pm!  That's 3:30 wake time!  We tried every half hour or so from 6pm on, but she just wasn't tired.  I was hoping it'd be BT, but she woke after 45 minutes.  We spent until 10:00pm putting her back to sleep, and then she was down until her next NW at 2:00am. I'm wondering if we shouldn't try so hard and just accept her BT is late. =\

Today she's had 1h naps on 2:20 and 2:10 wake times.  Question: How much crankiness is normal toward the end of waketime?  I assume some is normal since she's getting tired, but at what point is crankiness a sign you need to put baby to sleep?  I've been extending her waketime as far as I can with minor crankiness but we're still getting UT naps, so I'm wondering if I have to keep her awake *seriously* cranky.

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2017, 04:00:47 am »
Generally there's the kind of cranky that can be 'fixed' with changing activity - that is ok but then there's the cranky that keeps going no matter what you do ant that is likely tired/hungry/pain/dirty nappy/trying to poo/any number of other things which at around the right A time usually means tired.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2017, 18:19:03 pm »
Hmm, okay, got it. I'm just going to relax about the naps, I think.  Even though they are short, she is waking up happy, and she goes to sleep easily.  Maybe she just doesn't need much day sleep?  So I'll stick with shush-patting for the beginning of the nap if possible and then let her get up when she wakes up content.  Trying to resettle and failing all the time is kind of stressful.

A bedtime question: what does it mean if baby goes down easily for bedtime but wakes up 45 minutes later? I always try nursing her in the hopes she'll feed and go back to sleep like she does at her NW, but she usually requires bouncing.  Are night sleep cycles still 45 minutes?  Is there something special about the first one?

EASY from yesterday: She didn't go to sleep until late, but she woke up late too. She was fine and happy all day as long as she wasn't hungry. And this is the FIRST TIME she has ever gone to sleep at BT without an hour+ of bouncing -- she went to sleep within 5 minutes!

(Previous) BT 10:00pm
NW 2:00, 5:00, 6:30, 7:15
WU 8:45am

E 9:00
E 10:10
S 11:05-12:05 (1h, A=2:20)

E 12:10
E 1:45
S 2:15-3:15 (1h, A=2:10)

E 3:20
E 5:15
S 5:50-6:35 (45m, A=2:35)

E 6:45
E 8:00
E 9:30
S 10:00
  A(resettling) 10:45-11:20

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2017, 10:50:41 am »
A bedtime question: what does it mean if baby goes down easily for bedtime but wakes up 45 minutes later?
Yeah, so this is usually overstimulation or overtiredness. OT is possible given the short naps - just an accumulation during the day but I don't think you're looking at a chronic OT buildup. Its quite possible she's just going through that 4mo regression a little early too :) Some of our fun spirited LOs who get to 2hr A times earlier do that regression earlier too.

You could try a wake to sleep on her around 30-35min into the BT sleep just to see if that helps disrupt her sleep cycle enough to get her through that transition.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2017, 18:29:03 pm »
Its quite possible she's just going through that 4mo regression a little early too

I hope so! That means things will get better soon...!

SPEAKING OF WHICH: We just had our first 1h30m nap -- no AP or resettling -- since I started this post!  I tried W2S at 35m, but I don't know if it did anything (I brushed her cheek but she didn't stir).  Anyway, she woke up sooo happy :)  I forgot how happy she is after a long nap.  It was even a short waketime -- 1:15 or 1:45 depending on where you count the beginning.

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2017, 08:58:56 am »
Yay for that long  nap! It does make a big difference. Fingers crossed that's her coming out the other side and things will get better from now :)

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2017, 18:28:41 pm »
Hope so, hope so...!

As of a few days ago, shush-pat has stopped working. It's so weird. She used to just sort of complain-cry when I put her down and shush-pat would take care of it. Now she *screams*. Even picking her up and shush-patting on my shoulder doesn't help - she arches her back and flails her limbs and is very very unhappy. You're not supposed to continue shush-pat if baby is working themselves up into a state, right? What are you supposed to do?  Only bouncing helps, and once bounced, she goes to sleep very quickly. But we're trying to get away from the bouncing!! We were so close! :( I'm hoping this too is just a phase.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2017, 21:18:27 pm »
Okay, so here's what I tried doing:

PART 1:

1. Bounce in arms until she stops screaming
2. Switch to shhhh-ing in arms
3. When she starts screaming again, repeat UNTIL

PART 2:

1. Hold in arms and shhhh until her eyes start to close
2. Set down in crib, shhhhing
3. When she starts screaming again, repeat UNTIL

(... well, actually, I ended up shhing her to sleep in my arms accidentally this time, but NEXT TIME...)

PART 3

1. Shhh pat in crib until asleep

Does this seem right?  I CAN'T get her to calm down and stop screaming without the bouncing in the beginning, but I won't do it to put her to sleep.

EDIT: Also-- I'm wondering if my wind down needs tweaking.  We basically don't do any right now because she didn't seem to need it, but maybe things have changed.  I read a few other threads where they put baby in the crib for some quiet wind down before going to sleep, but the problem is at the end of her A time, she starts crying if I set her down!  Even when shush-pat was working, she cried while I put her in her sleep sack.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 21:23:01 pm by annesmama »

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2017, 21:25:26 pm »
That's fine - there's a technique called gradual withdrawal where you teach this all in stages and slowly remove your assistance. What you're doing is something similar.

Is she screaming because she's UT?
Is she screaming with pain? The pain I'm thinking of is reflux and I think unlikely because I don't think the bouncing would help with that but worth thinking about.

and yes, fighting sleep will happen many times in the coming years. There is no silver bullet for getting kids to sleep like robots.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2017, 21:46:42 pm »
Is she screaming because she's UT?
Is she screaming with pain? The pain I'm thinking of is reflux and I think unlikely because I don't think the bouncing would help with that but worth thinking about.

I don't think it's pain because it sounds different from the cry she makes when she bonks her head or gets a shot.
 And she stops immediately with bouncing, and she sleeps fine once she goes to sleep.  She might be UT, given the short naps, but I'm starting to think they are developmental.  She's sooo cranky at the end of A time, and if bounced, she goes RIGHT to sleep.  (This is after a pretty long A time for a 3.5mo old -- 2:15 and 1:50 for the last two naps).  She really does just seem MAD that I'm not bouncing her like she wants me to.

Well, wish me luck.  Is there a time limit where I should cut my losses and try again next nap?  I wouldn't want to make her overtired in the process, but I don't want to confuse her by being inconsistent.  Each minute she cries feels like ten though... I really hate making her cry :(

EDIT: One more question.  If she does short naps earlier in the day, is it okay to let her sleep longer later to make up for it?  Is a 3 hour nap OK or will I regret it at BT?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 23:35:39 pm by annesmama »

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2017, 06:25:00 am »
She really does just seem MAD that I'm not bouncing her like she wants me to.
Yep, you've changed what she's known for her entire life as the way she falls asleep. She will be mad. Being there with her and helping her learn another way is ok but its not no-cry.

If she does short naps earlier in the day, is it okay to let her sleep longer later to make up for it?  Is a 3 hour nap OK or will I regret it at BT?
Probably. Its generally accepted around here that 3 sleep cycles is about as much as you can allow before things get hairy and they start shifting their day - so 2:15 is about the max. You can go in at 2hr or so and just wake her when she stirs - that's the least horrible way to be woken but its not necessarily going to be pretty any way you go about it. Having said that, if she by some miracle does that at your 6:30 nap - let her go and make it her new BT :)

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2017, 21:39:21 pm »
I can't do it, I can't do it.  It's too much crying.  She's so upset.  I feel like she's making negative associations with bedtime now.  She cries when I start getting her zipadeezip out.

Is there another way to get rid of the bouncing?  I thought maybe she IS undertired, but yesterday even though getting her to sleep was terrible, her naps were the best they've ever been:

WU 7:30
E 7:30
S 9:30-10:30/10:30-11 (1h30m, resettled at 1h)

E 11:00
E 12:45
S 1:00-2:00/2:00-2:30 (1h30m, resettled at 1h)

E 2:30
E 4:00 (snack)
S 4:10-5:20 (1h10m)

E 5:30
E 7:00-7:20 then started trying to put her to sleep
BT 8:00 (resettled at 8:40, woke for DF at 10:30)

So even though she wouldn't shush-pat to sleep, she slept at least an hour each time and the first two naps I was able to extend.  That means she wasn't UT, right?  Then why is shush-pat not working?  And what do I DO??

Then today has been a total mess.  The first part of the night was good: woke for feeds at 10:30pm and 2am, but then the wee hours were terrible: woke at 3:30am and 4am (maybe the same waking?) and then at 6am when she woke up she wouldn't go back to sleep.  I'm not really sure what she did between 6 and 8:30am because I was mostly sleeping and patting her occasionally when she made noise.  And her two naps today have been 45 minutes and I haven't been able to resettle her :(:(

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 22:15:29 pm »
 
I can't do it, I can't do it.  It's too much crying.  She's so upset.  I feel like she's making negative associations with bedtime now.  She cries when I start getting her zipadeezip out.
Lets take a step back - what was it you were wanting to achieve?

You've made a lot of progress towards getting better naps - they're longer, she's taking much less time to settle. If you were looking to be able to put her down awake and leave, you've made progress there too but you're just not there yet. If you want to bounce her, that's fine. There's no reason not to unless you're unable to. I tend to suggest reducing bouncing and other similar things while LO is still small enough to be able to do it now that I've seen a reasonable number of women post here with babies that cannot sleep because they've always been bounced and they're just too big to do that any more. So if you bounce when necessary and work on gradually reducing it over a couple of weeks to a months or two, that's absolutely fine. There's not reason to do it immediately.

So even though she wouldn't shush-pat to sleep, she slept at least an hour each time and the first two naps I was able to extend.  That means she wasn't UT, right?  Then why is shush-pat not working?  And what do I DO??
Ok, so the 1hr waking with easy resettle suggests she's a little UT but you're pretty close to the right A time. This is usually the sign you'll start seeing every couple of weeks and then its time to increase ~10min A time. Your 45min naps today would suggest that's the case also. Keeping increasing gradually every couple of weeks if the key to keeping this routine appropriate for LO. I think you just have a long A time kiddo there. Doesn't mean low sleep needs necessarily but I think that's probably also the case.
WRT settling, shush/pat is ONE technique. The theory of it is to provide LO with 2 things to think about/focus on (not visual) and allow them to relax, so any form of sound - white noise, singing, shushing - will work with any kind of touch - patting, holding a hand on her, stroking her cheek.

Hugs for the less than ideal day :( As my husband would say when I was a mess after a day like that: "She's alive, fed, clothed, and healthy. You're doing a good job.".

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2017, 22:01:46 pm »
Thanks for the perspective. You're right - things have improved, even though we're having a rough patch right now.

My worry about continuing to bounce her to sleep is that she'll continue waking at 45 minutes and needing resettling. It makes the 'Y' part really hard to do and that wears on me. But you're right, if we can get it under control within a few weeks or a month, that would be fine too.

Last night at least was good...ish.  We couldn't get her to sleep until 11pm, but she slept until 7:45am with only two night wakings+feeds... that's pretty good for her. Today's been... not great... but at least it's a weekend and DH is here to help.