Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?

[becj86]

Yep, that's HTTJ. She may just have a slightly longer sleep cycle than average.

Yes, the A times are fine if she's not short-napping.

Wrt nap 3, she made it through the cycle transition on her own. That's great

[annesmama]

I hope we're turning a corner! Can you look at my EASY from yesterday and tell me if you see anything I should change? Her naps were great, but BT didn't go well.

WU 7:20
E 7:20, 8:15
S 8:30-10:05 (HTTJ, S=1:35, A=1:10)

E 10:10, 10:40
S 11:30-1:10 (HTTJ, S=1:40, A=1:20)

E 1:15
S 2:45-4:15 (HTTJ not necessary, S=1:30, A=1:35)

E 4:15
CN 5:40-6:30 (S=50m, A=1:25)

E 6:30
BT woe

So here's where it all went wrong.  We started going to the bedroom and changing into PJs, etc, around 7:30.  I had her down at 8:00 (using shush-pat!), but she woke up again and I realized we didn't do a pre-BT feed, so I fed her.  Tried and failed to put her down a few times -- each time I would get her to sleep, she would wake up again.  At one point she was smiley and playful, so I let her kick around in her crib for a little while.  I couldn't get shush-pat to work any more at this point.  Eventually we got her to sleep at 9:30, but required bouncing and holding.

Her night sleep wasn't great either - kept waking every hour or two until 3:00, at which point she woke up with a big grin and wanted to play.  D:  So I let her kick in her crib for a few minutes until her happy sounds got less happy and then shush-patted her to sleep.  She needed me to keep my arm on her to stop her legs and arms from moving, otherwise she kept waking back up.  The rest of the night was OK, woke at 5a for a feed and then slept until WU.

This sounds like OT?  But we were really trying not to push BT too late!  Maybe we should have started BT routine even earlier?  The 6:30 feed takes about 20 minutes, so maybe just 10-15 mins of activity and then straight to bed?  She WAS pretty fussy, but I didn't want to put her down UT and end up with a nap...

EDIT: Yesterday was similar, although we started BT earlier and got her to bed by 8pm. But she kept waking up and needing me to shush-pat her back down all evening. And she kept waking up at night.  She'd wake up waving her arms and legs around and rolling side-to-back-to-side etc.  If I held all her limbs and shush-pat, she'd go back to sleep, but she kept re-waking back up after I let go.  I can't hold her limbs all night!  Only nursing seemed to get her to calm down and stop flailing.  Sigh, she used to only wake up 2 or 3 times at night, but now it's much more

[annesmama]

Update: another similar day, except this time starting at 8am:

BT (prev) 8:00pm (or maybe 10:00pm*)
NF 9:45*, 12:00, 3:00, 5:30 <-- This is REALLY GOOD by current standards
WU 8:00am

  *The bedtime story: I got her to sleep at 8pm but she woke up at 8:45pm. After trying multiple times to put her back to sleep only to have her wake up again, I gave up and fed her at 9:45pm.  (I DID feed her before BT! I was trying to wait until 10-11pm for a DF.)  She went right to sleep afterward at 10pm.  So is that an 8pm bedtime with a really long NW?  Or an 8pm catnap with a 10pm bedtime?

E 8:00am
S 9:40-11:20 (HTTJ)

E 11:20
S 1:45-2:00 (didn't get there in time to HTTJ)

E 2:00
S 3:40-4:30 (tried to HTTJ but didn't work)

E 5:30
S 6:35-7:05 (I woke her)

E 7:05** (ended up doing multiple feeds over the next hour or two)
S 9:15*** (Sigh, I tried so hard to get an 8pm BT)

  **Feeding:
She won't take long feeds very often.  It's always 10 mins max per side, and sometimes she won't even take both sides.  The second side, she'll go *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile* *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile*.  She just isn't hungry I guess?  Anyway, at 7:05, she only took one side; I gave her the other after doing part of her BT routine, and kept offering after each failed sleep attempt.

  ***The BT story:
She woke from a nap at 4:30pm and I didn't think she'd make it to BT without a CN.  She'd woken up at 8am in the morning so I didn't think we could do an early BT at 6:30pm.  I was out and didn't get home till 6:30.  I put her to sleep right away and then woke her after 30 minutes because I was afraid if she slept longer, she wouldn't go to bed.  Between 7:05 and 7:50, I fed her, sat and chilled in the rocking chair a bit, sang some slow songs, changed her into PJs, fed some more, then tried to get her to sleep.  Tried and tried.  Shush-pat, rocking, bouncing, singing, nursing... nothing worked. At 8:45pm, she finally finished a feed pretty mellow.  I put her down and instead of fighting she let me hold her limbs while she drifted off.  Then SADNESS when I let go at 9:10, she woke uuuup. ;_;  I was so sad I just gave up and sat back. She fussed a bit, stuck her hand in her mouth, rolled over, and went to sleep.

We'll see if it sticks.

[becj86]

Sorry! I thought I had responded to your previous post.

So here's where it all went wrong.  We started going to the bedroom and changing into PJs, etc, around 7:30.  I had her down at 8:00 (using shush-pat!)

Probably a bit much A time off a short nap, I'd say.

You're doing a lot of holding... any way you could tuck her in? According to SIDS guidelines of course - with her feet at the end of the bed so she can't wriggle down and put her head under the blanket.

She fussed a bit, stuck her hand in her mouth, rolled over, and went to sleep.

So this is actually good - she can go to sleep on her own. She might need to be really drowsy to achieve it but she can do it.

  *The bedtime story: I got her to sleep at 8pm but she woke up at 8:45pm. After trying multiple times to put her back to sleep only to have her wake up again, I gave up and fed her at 9:45pm.  (I DID feed her before BT! I was trying to wait until 10-11pm for a DF.)  She went right to sleep afterward at 10pm.  So is that an 8pm bedtime with a really long NW?  Or an 8pm catnap with a 10pm bedtime?

Provided she was always in her room and working on sleep, I'd call that 8pm BT. She's really used to BT being much later so it will take a while before she stays asleep when you put her to bed at 8pm for the night.

  **Feeding:She won't take long feeds very often.  It's always 10 mins max per side, and sometimes she won't even take both sides.  The second side, she'll go *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile* *sucklesuckle* *let go and smile*.  She just isn't hungry I guess?  Anyway, at 7:05, she only took one side; I gave her the other after doing part of her BT routine, and kept offering after each failed sleep attempt.

That's fine - 10mins is pretty reasonable feed at this age. They get more efficient and feeding just doesn't take as long and she may not be hungry for the second side. I one side fed most of the time and offered the second side for growth spurts once I worked out what I was doing.

[annesmama]

Last night was worse with the wakeups:
BT 9:15
NF 10:30, 12:30, 2:00, 3:30, 6:45 -- Something like that... I was tired. I tried (blearily) to hold/pat her for each wakeup, but that just seemed to annoy her, so I fed her and she went right back to sleep.  Funnily enough, the second half of the night tends to be better than the first... I think DH and I are going to try to switch places tonight so he's next to her crib instead.
WU 8:00a

Now I know that some night feeds are normal, but this, this is not, I don't think.  When she wakes up in the morning, she isn't even hungry!

You're doing a lot of holding... any way you could tuck her in? According to SIDS guidelines of course - with her feet at the end of the bed so she can't wriggle down and put her head under the blanket.

You know, I haven't looked into it. I looked into weighted blankets briefly, but I don't think they're considered safe. I'm not sure if anything is considered safe at 4mos... I think we're at peak SIDS risk, and basically anything that makes a baby sleep sounder also puts them at higher risk for SIDS. But as it stands, I end up sleeping with my arm on her, so that's not great either.

So this is actually good - she can go to sleep on her own. She might need to be really drowsy to achieve it but she can do it.

Yes! I was so surprised! I shouldn't have been, though, I've been noticing lately at naps that sometimes she doesn't want to be rocked or bounced -- she just wants to be laid down in her crib. She cries when laid down, but she stops almost immediately and falls asleep when shush-patted.

[becj86]

So sometimes the night goes pear-shaped when the A times are a bit short which I think might be part of your issue now. She's almost sleeping too well during the day. I think now she's getting sorted with *how* to get to sleep, you may find it easier to increase her A times gradually again and have an easier time knowing when the A times are long enough.

WRT night feeds, normal intervals between feeds are typically considered to be however long LO goes between feeds during the day, so if she's going 4hr in the day, 4hrly feeds at night is reasonable though often there is a longer stretch somewhere. Often waking that frequently is discomfort (teeth, gas, hunger, etc.). If she's waking and staying awake and happy for a while in the early hours of the morning, that's definitely a sign to push the A times. Those wakings early on in the night are likely OT from the day - either short naps, too long between CN and BT or just that BT is too late in relation to her body clock.

re: SIDS: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sudden-infant-death-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx -
Do:
Always place your baby on their back to sleep.
Place your baby in the "feet to foot" position (with their feet touching the end of the cot, Moses basket, or pram).
Keep your baby’s head uncovered. Their blanket should be tucked in no higher than their shoulders.
Let your baby sleep in a cot or Moses basket in the same room as you for the first six months.
Use a mattress that's firm, flat, waterproof and in good condition.
Breastfeed your baby (if you can). See Why breastfeed? for more information

[annesmama]

Last night was better re: wakings!  Well, in the sense that I first tried getting her back to sleep without feeding and it worked half the time.  Instead of trying to hold her flailing limbs, I tried stroking/squeezing them.  Sometimes it works.  That was actually how I got her to relax to sleep at 10:15 -- when I massaged her legs, she stopped flailing and went to sleep.

BT 7:45
NW/F 8:30-10:15 (feed-activity-sleep), 12:00 (feed), 1:30 (wake only), 4:00 (feed), 6:45 (wake only)
WU 7:50

I have a question about A times though.  The last few days I've been trying to do longer A times, and we've been doing anywhere from 1h30m to 2h.  But she's been soooo grouchy to get down, and I'm wondering if it's too much.  I'm aiming for 1h45m, but if she gets too fussy earlier, I call it earlier.  Unfortunately, that means she's generally already fuss-crying when I go to the bedroom, and she cries/screams while I put on her sleep sack (zipadee-zip).  It's always been like that, but before, she would generally calm down as soon as I picked her up or started bouncing and she would fall asleep during her lullaby.  Now, she keeps crying, she won't listen to her lullaby, and I end up having to put her down and shush-pat through the crying.  If it doesn't work, I pick her up and do the lullaby again and shush-pat again, and usually the second time works.  But it takes longer shush-patting and sometimes she wakes up again and needs a little more shushing.  Does this mean I'm overshooting the A time?  Or maybe something's changed and she needs more wind-down than she used to?

[becj86]

How many days have you done the longer A times? Sometimes they just get used to shorter ones and don't like the push even though they need it.

Would you try incorporating a massage with that leg squeezing into your WD/pre-bed routine?

[annesmama]

Today's the third day of longer A times.  The two days before that were travel, so everything was off.  She had shots today at the doctor's office and tomorrow we're traveling again for a few days, so I expect things to go off the rails, but we'll do our best to get back on routine over the weekend.  I'll definitely keep trying the massage/WD thing.

Thank you so much for all your help

[annesmama]

Hallo again!  Sleep is going okay, but it feels like travel undid all the progress we were making towards independent sleep, sigh. Her night sleep was about the same as usual, but I had to either nurse or bounce to get her to sleep in the hotel. Now she still wants to be put to sleep, where before she was often doing well with shush-pat.  I am going to try to catch back up as much as possible so that things don't get even worse when we travel again next week.

Today was not bad, but her A times are sooo weird.  I've been doing an extra feed before going down for naps in the hopes that (a) maybe it will make pre-nap ritual less of a cry-fest and (b) maybe if she eats more during the day, she'll wake less at night. What do you think?

WU 7:10
E 7:10
E 7:40
S 8:40-10:20 (Did HTTJ but maybe it was unnecessary, not much happened)
* Yay long nap .  Short A time though - 1:30

E 10:20
E 11:30
S 11:50-1:30 (Tried HTTJ but didn't work at first; bounced to sleep then HTTJ to deep sleep)
* Long nap again although required a lot of babysitting.  Short A time again - 1:30.  Maybe this means her second A time needs to be longer than the first?

E 1:30
E 2:45
S 3:10-4:00 (A=1:40 this time, but couldn't get this one to extend. I think her sleep cycles might be 50 minutes now)

E 4:30
E 5:15
E 7:00
S 7:30
* Thought we were going to get a CN in before BT but instead we had a 3:30 A time! What!! But she was happy unless we were trying to get her to sleep. Then she was mad. And she went right to sleep at 7:30 with only a little bit of bouncing.
* EDIT: Ugh, but she woke up at 8:00 and 1 hour later, we still haven't gotten her back down. First she screamed every time I tried to bounce her back down. Fed her and she seemed like she was going to sleep... but instead started rolling around and woke herself back up.

What do you do at night wakings if baby won't go back to sleep without nursing?  She often wakes every 2 hours, sometimes even sooner, and she *doesn't* need to eat so often.  Sometimes (rarely) patting or rubbing works to get her back to sleep.  Sometimes I let her suck on my pinkie -- which is as bad as letting her nurse, right?  Sometimes DH wakes up and bounces her.  ...But more often, when her noises start to escalate, I just nurse her.  Would it work to gradually decrease the length of these?

[becj86]

Sometimes I let her suck on my pinkie -- which is as bad as letting her nurse, right?

Would you consider a dummy/pacifier?

Travel does make things really hard - lots of changes for her and she'll need more support with falling asleep.

She may be a LO who will do better with shorter A time first up then lengthening through the day - you may have heard of 2-3-4...

Would it work to gradually decrease the length of these?

You could try - I think she's using the sucking to get back to sleep more than wanting food. I'd probably take the easy path for now given you're travelling again in a week :-/

I've been doing an extra feed before going down for naps in the hopes that (a) maybe it will make pre-nap ritual less of a cry-fest and (b) maybe if she eats more during the day, she'll wake less at night. What do you think?

Worth a try but keep in mind the potential for snacking and the issues with her not taking in full feeds through the day and making a habit of snacking through the night as well.

[annesmama]

Worth a try but keep in mind the potential for snacking and the issues with her not taking in full feeds through the day and making a habit of snacking through the night as well.

Noooo I really don't want that!

We don't want to make a habit of a paci, although we tried using one for the first time on this trip. She couldn't keep it in very long and her hand control isn't good enough to keep it in.

What's the alternative? Get her up and bounce?

[becj86]

At the moment, I'd probably just feed for ease though letting her suck your finger is probably slightly better than feeding - at least she's not expecting food at every waking and reducing her intake in the day.

Do you travel regularly normally or is this unusual for you? If its normal to travel this often, probably worth establishing some familiar things you take with you everywhere you go - same sheets/blanket, same lovey, same pyjamas, can go a long way to helping her feel that she's in reasonably familiar surrounds and help her learn to settle. If you're rarely travelling, just do what you have to at the time to get through and then get back to normal when you get home. The overstimulation of being in a strange place, doing different activities, etc. can really throw sleep off and its worth it if you can go with the flow and get back on track when you return home.

Does she respond to shush/pat if you jump in a little earlier? She's less likely to self-settle when she's in an unfamiliar environment.

[annesmama]

This is unusual, thank goodness.

It's so weird -- when I first started this thread, it was ages before shush-pat started working, and then it stopped again, started again... right now we're in a not-working phase.  *Sometimes* it works for the first morning nap.  But more often it just makes her mad.  I don't know why =\

Yesterday, it was like a switch flipped and she suddenly started staying awake and happy ~2h+ (before her usual getting screaming-mad-tired).  Wonder week 19??  I was able to extend her first nap to 1:20 with a lot of bouncing and in-arms holding, but the second two were only 40m.   Her A times were 1:50, 2:05, 2:20, and 3:35 -- BT at 8:30 and wasn't too much trouble to put her down again when she woke up at 9:30.  And then her night sleep was really good (by our standards)!  Feeds at 2:30am and 5:30am. After the 5:30 feed she flipped onto her tummy and slept until 9:45am this morning!

Maybe if she keeps doing that... and then when she can control her fingers enough to suck her thumb... things will get better? Hope springs eternal.

EDIT: Today was odd. After the late WU, we had a long first A time (3:15) because we were out for brunch.  First nap was only 1h -- was not able to get her to go back to sleep.  The A time after that was, understandably, short (1:30) but the second nap was 2h!  At the 1h mark I heard her cry out, but I took my time going there and by the time I got to the bedroom, she was asleep on her tummy again!  Now she's been awake for 2h and counting but not yet tired.  I expect she'll be tired soon though, probably around 3h or 3h30m.

[becj86]

*Sometimes* it works for the first morning nap.  But more often it just makes her mad.  I don't know why =\

I think she may be a touch UT - now she knows shush/pat is for sleep, she will be mad if you do it before she's tired enough for a nap.

Well, you seem to be able to go with the flow pretty well. Yay for the 2hr nap! I totally get that its a double edged sword though because you can't necessarily get anything done anyway because you don't know when she'll sleep/need help.