5 mo old..too many nw

[teezee]

sarah - i would def try to extend for a few days and see how it goes - you can always go back to what you were doing before. he may just 'seem' tired or 'think' he is tired b/c you have him on a good consistant routine and that's what he is used to. just keep the extra A time very low key and not stimulating and it should go well - just be sure he doesn't get overtired and if needed just extend by 5 or ten min at a time...the morning A time 'should' be the shortest A time of the day, getting longer throughout the rest of the day...but i do think that your lo can do with an extra 15 min A time - possibly up to a half hr - but it will have to be a slow process to get him there. also, do keep in mind that the 6 month growth spurt is coming up and pay attention to signs for that.

as far as the early wake up - kind of compromise between both of what you have heard esp lo being so young still kwim? just try extending how i described but just don't let him get overtired - you know your lo best..

from what you describe it does sounds like lo isn't tired enough to stay asleepwhen the early am waking occurs.

i do def think that extending the A time will help with naps as lo will be more tired to stay asleep longer, and in turn will not get overtired by not getting enough quality rest during the day. if you do put your lo down too early in the am b/c he is tired - beware that he isn't just tired b/c he woke up early and 'making up for lost sleep' with that am nap - i may advise that you want to limit that nap for a bit til things get back on track - so that he is rested but not just catching up...good luck hun!

[andrea21]

Hi!!!

Hope you are hanging in there.Not sure if this will help you but my Ds is 5 months old,but I changed him over to the bottle about 6weeks ago as he wasn't getting enough milk of me.
But when I was Bf him I would feed every hour from 5-7pm then one more at 9pm and he would sleep all night.I did this from 7weeks and he has slept thru the whole night since then.
Day time sleeps he isn't too good at,he has 3 one hour sleeps a day,but I am not too worried about that now,as he sleeps the whole night and goes down early.
I just watch his signs now and when he starts to get cranky rubbing his eyes i put him down to sleep.

Hope this might give you some ideas,my Ds is actually born 3 days after yours....
Must be dec babies,I no alot of people that have had trouble with them sleeping and all born in dec...
It takes your toll,but hang in there...

[teezee]

imho - if you are bfing and want to continue - i wouldn't suggest giving lo formula - even to supplement - supply =demand and if lo isn't sucking/nursing then the milk won;t be produced and your supply will diminish. if your supply seems low - pump and hr after you feed lo. i am still bfing at almost a yr and there were times when it seemed it was getting hopeless as my supply would drastically drop but after observation it happened right before i got my period as hormones are all wacky if your supply is well established it should be ok with a little work on your part if needed..you could also just let lo nurse more often for a couple days - this should work also

andrea - if you are still having troubles with your lo sleeping it could have to do with your lo needing his routine tweaked some..if you would like to start your own thread and post lo's routine we could take a look for you  if not, keep up the great work!!

[x95stocchier]

Hi All!  Thanks for your replies!  I have made some small successes these past few days.

I have been able to extend naps, though w2s is still failing. I am now applying pressure for the jolts.  I've been getting 1.5 hrs in Am and 2 hrs in PM nap.  Yeah!  However, I'm wondering if I am going to be applying pressure until he turns 10!    Anyone know how you wean this?  I know w2s you do 4 days, then let them try, then do again 4 days, etc. 

I also applied pressure to help him get back to sleep this morning when he woke at 5.....but I did it again 30 min later (good thing, because he did slightly wake) and so on. But I got him to his 6:30 wake up time without a real awakening, though it probably wasn't the best quality of sleep.  So, at least he didn't start his day early.

I've also been extending A time to 2:15, however, contrary to what you said, he seems to deal better in the morning.  (and he's supposedly a textbook baby!)  Anyway, I get 2:15 easily in the morning, then with a little struggle in the afternoon.  Between PM nap and catnap, though, he's giving me sleepy signs at 1.5!  I stretch to 2, but not sure I can do more. He also gives sleepy signs 1 hr after waking from catnap, before I start bedtime routine. 

Here's our improved routine:

6:30 wake and E & A
8:45 S
10:15 E&A
12:30 S
2:30 E&A
4:30 catnap
5:10~5:20 E (cluster)
6:15 E
6:30 massage, song, bed at 7

So, he's less overtired by having that late catnap, but waking only 90 min before bedtime. 
few Questions:
1. In BW-SAYP, Tracy suggests a 4 hr EASY that has a catnap between 5 and 6, with bedtime at 7:30, so could be waking 90 min before bedtime.  DS is doing the same thing in this schedule.  Do you think that's too close to bedtime?  Also, at what age does catnap go away usually?

2. Why does he seem more tired later in the day rather than earlier? (maybe this is due to our chronic sleep problems and bad naps accumulating?)

3. What to so about that darn cluster feed....I'd like to do  E at 2:30, 4:30 and 6:10, but 4:30 is catnap time, so as a result, he eats 1 hr apart, I doubt both are full feeds. Since he's still waking 2X to eat at night, maybe he doesn't need it for now?

4. I heard before to make the PM nap the long one, rather then Am, do you agree?

Thanks for all your help! 
Sarah
PS thanks for the heads up on the gs.  I will keep an eye out!

[teezee]

it will pass - just need to do it for some time. could lo be somehow getting overtred/ overstimulated?

sometimes sleep cues change or become harder to identify. my lo would yawn all day long and for the longest time i assumed she was ready for bed and didn't understand why things weren't falling into place.then i started keeping her up for longer periods of time and her sleep got better and she didn't always 'seem' sleepy. if they are used to getting more sleep and less A time than their bodies are on a routine to show tiredness at that time..kwim? am i making any sense?? just make sure you keep that extra A time as low key as possible..look out a window or something..

i wouldn't say the time between the catnap and bedtime is as much to worry about as whether your lo can handle having a later catnap? that prob doesn't make any sense - if it is too late in the evening (and every lo is different as with everything..) than sometimes it will affect night sleep...

it could be accumulated overtiredness in which case i would try putting lo down to bed earlier for a few nights to try and let him 'catch up' and not do the catching up during nap times though.

have you tried a df as opposed to a cluster feed??

i agree that with 'most' lo's the am nap should be the shortest as then you will be sure lo isn't getting too much morning sleep and it won't affect night sleep. look at the am nap as an extension of night sleep...kind of like a topper - it doesn't need to be as long as in the pm as lo should be very rested from a good night's sleep kwim..although my dd is the exact opposite and i let her nap that way b/c it isn't affecting her nights any...it's all a balancing act and finding what works for you - 10 or 15 min could change everything when it comes to a lo's routine.

good luck and keep us posted! it sounds like you have a great start - just keep moving forward and things should start falling into place!!

[x95stocchier]

So, if he's having bad naps, I should put him to bed early that day? 
For example today he slept 30 min in AM, cried for 20 min, slept 35 more min.  In PM he slept 1 hr 20 min.  He;s going to be ready for a catnap by 4, probably sleep 35 min, so he's going to be SO exhausted by the time 7 rolls around.  usually 45 min after catanp he's already rubbing his eyes and fussing like crazy (around 6 pm)

I want to do a df, but he's waking so early.....like 8:30~9:30 for first wake.  I put him back to sleep, then feed the next time he wakes 10~11 ish.  Does that early 8:30~9:30 wake mean something?  The time is not consistant, so can't do w2s. 

Up until yesterday I didn't think overstimulation was a problem,. but yesterday  he figured out how to roll, and now he can't stop rolling.....I think that's affecting him today.  Anyhow, does overstimulation cause more jolts?

Somedays I feel like I'm taking 2 steps forward and 1.75 steps back....some days 2.5 steps back!

[teezee]

that's what i would do - put him to bed early if naps are bad - esp if he seems tired, like he's on his way to overtired - with my dd i would be able to tell at night her sleep cues better than the rest of the day as she would rub her eyes (not always a sleep cue for her) and start to get hyper - that was the first clue that i had to get her to bed NOW! and at that age, it really does differ from day to day imo, just keep a close watch - but i def think even a little earlier woudl help. with today, i would put him down for 6pm if that's when he is tired b/c being overtired will just make his sleep more disrupted.

that early waking after bedtime most times signifies overtiredness - which i am pretty sure your lo is..that's why i think the early bedtime will help get everything sorted out. even if he starts napping well you don't want him to make up for ALL the sleep during the day or he will start getting days/nights mixed up..a whole other problem but the early bedtime will instill that night time is for sleeping, keep him from being overtired and let him 'make up' any lost sleep.

developmental things can most definately add to wakings/early wakings - but i think that it is something more here although it could be making it worse ultimately. overstimulation - if other kids are around and excited, sometimes tv, getting lo riled up in the last A time can cause more jolts definately.

there is def regression when you change or do new things so don't let that discourage you - you are here and asking for advice and that is wonderful in itself that you are willing to try something new you are doing a great job!!

[x95stocchier]

HI Tawnya,
Thanks again for all your help.  I love your DD's new picture! So cute!

So, on again with 2 steps forward 1 step back....but I am trying to find one or 2 positive things in every day so i don't get discouraged!  (This morning he woke at 5:45, then mantra'd for 10 min and back to sleep till 6:30, his wake up time! YEAH!  And I found him 180 degree turn, and on his tummy when I went to get him up!)
Naps went haywire again today....The holding for jolts isn't always working.  Not sure what to do on short naps anymore.   

So, I came up with a list of more questions:

Today he slept 38 min in PM nap, and then pu/pd for the rest of the nap period.  NOW, what time do I put him down for catnap? 2:15 after he woke, or 2:15 after getting him out of the crib?  I went on sleepy signs (he's an eye rubber) thought it may have been premature, since he's still giving me sleepy signs early.

How long do you think I should keep putting him down early?

If he is sleeping past morning wake time, do you think I should wake him and start our EASY on time every day, or let him sleep to help catch up on all this lost sleep and adjust EASY based on Wake up time? (this hasn't been a problem yet, but I'm just hoping!)  Same question on naps....I presume it's best to wake him at E time?  Regardless of how much sleep he actually got?

How long should I try to push a nap?  ie if he naps 1 hr 20 min in the morning, good enough?  Or push for 1:30 or more?  And finally, how much daytime sleep do you think I should aim for? (he'll be 6 mo in 10 days) I looked at the thread that shows average sleep, but it didn't make sense....less daytime sleep for a 6 mo old than older kids.....    I'm thinking 1:30 in AM 2 in PM and 30 min catanp, if I can get all that.  Do you think that sounds good?

Oh, on overstimulation....I'm really stumped.  I have no other children, I never turn the TV on when he's awake, and I only do exersaucer and that type of stuff in the morning.  The only thing could be DH coming home from work, usually after catnap and they play between then and bedtime.  But, that doesn't really explain the naps hard jolts....

Thanks for your encouragement. 
It's so frustrating, and to think it will never be sorted out...always need tweaking because of age, development, etc.  Agg!  I just want to get to a place I can deal with....and with more than 6 hrs or broken sleep a night!

[teezee]

thx for the compliment on the pic  although i have gone and changed it again

congrats on the reg wake up time today! that is a great achievement!!

i had huge problems with jolts when dd was his age and i would still have to swaddle - don't know if you do - but she fought and fought with a regular swaddle but wasn't at all resistant to an aussie swaddle and i actually used it until she was i think about 8 months and even on days she was excited by something and 'hyper' i would still use it after that til about 9 months!! that should help with the jolts if you aren't already using a swaddle if you need a link to the aussie swaddle let me know

i think that you should put him down early for at least a few days - til you think he is caught up and on a more reg routine..which may be longer - i guess you will have to judge that and if you put him to bed at a later time and things get worse than you will know - it is so much trial and error really...i know i wish i had a 'magic' answer to help solve this but i can only help guide you in hopefully the right direction...

i def think you should be consistant with the wake up time as he will then learn when that time is kwim? and your routine will hopefully start falling into place more regularly..with the extra sleep from early bedtime he should be rested enough..if you don't wake him once he is caught up - he will let you know with early wakings once again kwim? he will get used to sleeping in late in the am and wake up for a 'sleep break' early am as he will be able to 'catch up' in the morning and you don't want that!!

i think 1 hr 20 mins is fairly good - at that age i think that is about what i got out of my lo for at least one of her naps on the odd occasion i would get 2hrs for both but most times one long, one shorter, and a catnap.

as far as how much sleep? all lo's are soo different and 15 min can honestly make or break night time sleep - to me it is such a fragile thing this balancing act of sleep. ok well, keep in mind that in the next few weeks your lo may/will (usually between 6-8 months)  be ready to drop that catnap. and then you will need to have two longer naps although the time of the two he is having should be enough - but then you will def need to do an earlier bedtime insted of the catnap until the A time is extended enough (of course it is a slow process..) so that he can make it through to the bedtime. again, this is IF your lo is ready for it at that point - don't try doing it too early - if he starts sleeping to a reg waking up time and in the next couple wks he starts waking in the early am again, i think it would be time. also at 6 months, don't forget about that growth spurt! you may want to start adding a bit more to bottles or if bfing pumping some to increase your supply so you don't start any new night feedings as a result - just to be a little proactive here

honey - you will never stop tweaking so don't get too hopeful there but seriously - as soon as things start working he will go and change on you! tried and true - happens to me all the time these lo's like keeping us on our toes ya know??!!

anyway, if swaddling - maybe the aussie swaddle will be helpful..it was a complete godsend for me..how many times did he wake last night? also, he's about the age that i would feel comfortable (after the growth spurt that is..) saying that maybe you want to try weaning the night feeds...and do remember there is soo much going on developmentally, teething, growth spurts..etc if you are consistant and continue being proactive he may just surprise you one night will keep my fingers crossed..i do remember feeling like you must, thinking my dd would NEVER sleep through or even until her night feedings without awaking - but it is possible - i was hopeless and desperate when i posted on the sleep boards and much more frantic than you sound - if i could do it - you can too!!!

[x95stocchier]

HI Tawnya!

Well, it's better I didn't reply yesterday after 10 night wakings!    He kept rolling over and wanting me to put him back.  Yesterday for naps and night sleep, I decided to let him go, and sooth on his tummy, if that's where he was.  WOW!  I love tummy sleeping!  I'm so glad he learned to roll! 

AM nap I was holding him for jolts, but he woke anyway, and got back to sleep, total 1:20, afternoon nap he rolled to his tummy, slept 1:30 (he did wake a few times, buts elf settled....this is a new skill on naps!)

Then, last night he rolled to his tummy, and though I heard peeps, not a cry till 11 when I fed him (usually closer to 10) and 3 (I usually feed around 2).  I woke up a couple times hearing him fussing, but never had to intervene! I feel so refreshed after...like....6 hours of sleep! 

As for the swaddle....I wish I never stopped when he was little (I wasn't doing bw then) but he's so move-y when he settles, and uses his hands a lot to move around/get comfortable, I think he's get so mad.

Oh, another question....when I start nap or bedtime routine, lately he's fussing up a storm...squirming in my lap for the book or song, rubbing his eyes like crazy, so I've tried, but then moved to the crib.  I know consistant routine is important.  WWYD?

Thanks for the reminder on the gs.  I started pumping yesterday.  Hope it helps!  Also thrown into the mix, we're going to ILs this month, probably for a week!  So that will throw us off for sure, but if we make some ground before then, I know we can get back to it no matter what gets messed up!

Thanks again for your help!

[teezee]

so are you swaddling again? regular or aussie swaddle?

sometimes you may need to adjust the routine slightly if something doesn't seem to 'work' anymore. it is best to keep it as consistant as possible but i know from when my lo was 4 or 5 months til now dd doesn't have half as much in her routine...it is relatively quick now as over the months we have 'dropped' some steps...

it can be so difficult with regards to the routine and going away - have done it a few times a dreaded it each time - but was never as bad as i thought it would be..after a night or so at least just for bedtime, bring as many things as you possibly can to make lo feel like he's 'at home' kwim? i went as far as detaching the music box that's attached to the mobile (so ididn't have to bring the whole thing) as that is apart of the bedtime routine. bring familiar blankets, etc. and things should go well

hth.

you are doing such a great job - such encouraging steps towards your goal!! way to go!! 

[teezee]

btw i keep forgetting to mention that my mom's bday is the same as daniel's! sagitarius's are awesome!!

[x95stocchier]

Thanks again for all the encouragement! 

I think the fact that he's not as overtired (thanks to early bedtimes) and the longer A time, he's getting there.  Then the tummy sleep was the topper.  I think it must be more easy for him to self settle on his tummy.  And now that I know he can, I am surely slow to move to his rescue.  (a part of accidental parenting that I struggle with most!)

I am not swaddling now.  It's also really  not here....many nights he sleeps in just a onsie, so I think I am going to try to hold off andnot do it if I can get away with it.  BUT, the next baby will definitely be swaddled for a mush longer time!

Yeah, I'm thinking skip the book, go to the song, and if he resists, put him right down.  he is starting to fuss when we enter the nursery sometimes    Not sure why...  Anyway, I'll watch and document.  Those may be times he was a little more stimulated before nap time.  Night is not a problem, as we feed then do a massage, both of which he loves!

So what are the signs he needs 2:30 A time?  How about signs I need to watch for to drop catnap?

Thanks for the tips on travel.  My mom always says that it doesn't take as long to get BACK to where you were than to get there to begin with, so hopefully with some consistency and a little pu/pd if needed, we can hop back into things when we get back.  At least this visit will be pretty easy for us to stay on EASY.  DH is helping IL with farm work for the week, so they will all be gone most of the day (and part of the night!) so that will leave DS and I to set our own schedule.

Oh, and on pumping, do you do it 1 hr after each feed?

I'm a sag too!  Daniel was born 2 days before my bday! What a gift!

[teezee]

don't feel too bad - i was a classic 'rescuer' too

if you start noticing night wakings again or early wakings then it's probably that he is getting too much day sleep and time to soon drop the catnap - first try adjusting things a bit like you are now - with A times and nap times and if it doesn't seem to help at all - start dropping the nap and just go with an earlier bedtime and it should level itself off within time when he is able to stay up for longer periods kwim?

as far as 2.5hr A time - just extend the A time slowly and if it seems to help but still not great then do it a bit more just play around with it til you find the happy medium.

you could do the pumping right after a feed - but always find the best results about an hr after. if you get a 'dry pump' don't worry about it too much just relax and keep pumping - this will send the signal that more milk needs to be made also

i am a capricorn...but most of my fam is sag!!

[x95stocchier]

So is the idea that you build up supply by pumping,  then when he hits gs, he can just eat more each time, and not need to add additional feedings?

How do you go about getting rid of a night feed?  w2s for the time he usually wakes?  or do I need to slowly wean the feed, ie only one breast for a while, etc.?