Time to Pay the Piper.(kinda long, lots of questions)

[hoosiermama]

I hate to admit it, but I have been accidental (on purpose) parenting .  I have a ton of excuses (illness of everyone in the house, too much going on, etc...), but now, it is time to sleep train(want to start after Christmas .  My ds is 12 weeks old will be 13 weeks by then.  He is on a fairly good 21/2-3 hour routine, but he takes his naps in the bouncy seat or swing.  At night he sleeps in an Amby and does fairly well there too. 
We want him to sleep in his crib. 
My first question is this:  Right now he is sleeping (at night) in our room (for naps in his bouncy seat where ever we happen to be in the house).  Eventually we would like to move him into the room with his brother (3 1/2 years old, very deep sleeper, but not so good with nap anymore).  Do we move the crib into DS1 room for sleep training, or do we put it in our room and move him when he is older (when he is sleeping through the night so not to disturb DS1)?  The reason for the question is two fold.  DH works from home and needs Ds1 to have quiet time for about an hour to an hour and a half in his room everyday.  If we move crib in there for DS2 then DS1 won't have anywhere to go for quiet time (I suggested our room, but hubba is afraid he'll get bored and start tearing through our stuff.  I don't want to have to sleep train twice, HELP!  (I know it's all my fault, I feel very guilty as I should know better!)
Also, do I do shh/pat or Pu/pd? 
I would also like him to find his thumb if possible, should I leave one arm out? 
Should I give him the pacifier until he finds his thumb?
Here is a general schedule:(changes depending on when ds2 gets up in the morning)
Up at about 6:30 BF
A: 6:30-7:30-7:45
S: 7:45-8:45/9:15 (in bouncy seat)

E:9-9:15 BF
A:until 10:15
S:10:30-11:30/12ish

E:12/12:15BF
A:until 1:15-1:30ish
S:1:45-3:15

E:3:15is
A:until 4:15-4:30
S:4:30-5:30

E:5:30 (Try to do a bottle of formula for this feeding)
A: This is his long awake time, is usually pretty alert until 7:15-7:30
6:30: Start on bedtime routine with DS1(trying to get him used to that routine as will be doing it with both boys when DS2 moves into the room)
7:15 move to our room to get into jammies, BF.
Down for the night at 7:30-8:00p.mish.
(I have never gotten him to take a dreamfeed, and I often go to be at the same time he does)
up to nurse at 12:30-1:30am ish
Up again at 3:30-4:30ish
6:30 start all over again. (of course lately he has been getting up every hour after 1:30 feed we think because of his cold or lack of sleep training ).
Clear as mud right?  TIA!

[nursekat]

I hope I can answer some of these questions! 

Try not to beat yourself up too much - remember, everybody needs to do what works for them the best.  There is no "right" or "wrong" to parenting, you are doing what needs to be done until it all gets sorted out. 

As far as the crib goes, I don't think it would be an issue to put it in another room than your DS1 - the biggest adjustment will be getting used to the crib versus the bouncy seat.  It sounds like it would be easier for the whole family to have it in a different room, and I don't see anything wrong with that.  Although I've never dealt with moving rooms myself, so we'll see what others might say.  I would imagine once you moved the crib later, you wouldn't have to sleep train per se but might have a day or two of adjustment.

Shh/pat is appropriate for this age, pu/pd is not recommended until later.

The thumb/binkie is up to you.  If you want him to find his thumb, then yes it might help to leave an arm out.  As far as giving the binkie, that is your call.  Just as long as you know you will be weaning it later. 

Just peeking at your routine I have a couple of suggestions.  You might want to aim more for a 12-hr "day" - if your ds2 wakes at 6:30, aim for a bedtime of 6:30 as well.  One thing that might help make this all work out with your feeds is to stretch your A times a bit, especially in the am when you are feeding sooner than 3hrs.  Check out the EASY FAQs for some sample schedules, your boy is at the age where he should be able to handle longer A times.

Often the longest A time is the one right before bed, so as long as he is tolerating that well, I don't see this as a problem.  And I never did the dreamfeed, either.    I went to bed early as well so prefered just doing a night feeding rather than the DF.  Like I said, there's no "right" or "wrong," you have to find what works for you and your LO! 
 

[hoosiermama]

Thank you!  Now I have to get DH to set up the crib!

[nursekat]

Good luck!  Let us know if you have anymore questions!

[hoosiermama]

How long will it take to get him to sleep on his own?  I am having some trouble finding a block of days to do this!  I tried to transition him to the 3 hour easy, and how he is up every 45 min. at night.  AHHHHHH

[nursekat]

Oh no!  I'm so sorry you're struggling!

It takes about 3 days for the biggest protests to change, but up to 2 weeks to really settle into a new sleep routine.  You can see regression at this time, too.  What is your routine looking like now?  How is he doing for his A times?  Is he seeming happy and his usual self or cranky and tired?

[hoosiermama]

We are still working on it, but we basically eat at 6:30a, 9:30a, 12:30p, 3:30p 5:30p and then sometimes before bed at about 6:30 ( I am trying to cluster feed to get him tanked up).  He has been napping about 3 1/2 to 4 hours a day (he is nappping in the Amby we are planning to start the actual sleep training on Sunday).  I try to start the nap routine about an hour after he wakes up (so that he is actually up about an hour and 20 min before he falls asleep he is a textbook with a little angel baby).  He does really well if he sleeps, but when he doesn't he melts down very quickly.  He is starting to fall asleep on his own when he is in the Amby, so I am hoping it will transfer to the crib. 
When he wakes up in the middle of the night, how often should he be eating, and how often should I try patting and shhhhing to get him to go back to sleep? Thank you so much for your help!

[nursekat]

If it has been three or four hours since the last feed, go ahead and feed him.  If it's just 45mins, he's not hungry.    Three months is when his cries start really differentiating, so work on trying to discern the hungry cry from the tired cry from the angry cry, etc. (It takes time, though, so don't stress over this one!! )

[Janice Anne]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this post. I'm going thru something similar with ds#2 who is coming up to 11 weeks old. Again, a lot of accidental parenting that I'm now trying to fix. Our ds#2 from the moment he was brought home seems to really dislike sleeping on his tummy in his crib or bassinet. So we had him sleeping in his car seat which seemed to work, for a while. Then I tried moving him to his bassinet which was a nightmare. I tried the whole pat/sh thing until I was in tears (it was hours each time!) Then I noticed one time during "tummy time" that ds#2 fell asleep, I left him along because he was so overtired. He slept 4 hours straight which as a first! So of course I tried it again for the next nap, then for nighttime, etc. He was getting to sleeping 8 hours a night with excellent 2-3 hour naps during the day. Life was becoming sane again!

Then my guilt got to me (and the riot act from dh) and that I need to follow doctor's advice and move him over to his back for sleeping. So for the past two days I've been working on this. ds#2 is in the same bedroom as ds#1 (only a 2 bedroom apartment so no choice-fortunately ds#1 is a very sound sleeper). The first night neither ds#2 or myself got any sleep. I finally picked him up at 5am and cradled him in my arms on the couch and we fell asleep for two hours. During the day, not much luck, but I did get him to sleep with me in my bed while nursing (slept for 3 hours). Last night, different story. After exactly 1 hour of pat/sh I got him to sleep for 4.5 hours. Today, no luck at all so far.

My question is (sorry to take so long getting to it!) should the pat/sh take an hour or more?? I thought after 20min a baby is supposed to transition into deep sleep. He seems to be very quiet and sleep for most of the hour, but at the 45min mark he begins to stir. Last night the stirring lasted 15-20min then he was out. Today for naptime, same deal. 45min into sleeping he awoke, but didn't have any success in getting back to sleep. Am I doing something wrong? I continue the pat/sh the entire time, so is this maybe waking him up ? Should I be stopping a lot sooner? I did try this earlier but I found he would wake up at 20min and would cry a bit and go back to sleep but it would be the same cycle. Sleep 20min, wake, cry, sleep 20 min, wake, cry, etc. Clearly he's not falling into deep sleep.

any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

Janice

[hoosiermama]

Well!  Last night he was up every 2 hours.  I think that he is coming down with something.  I have been putting him down for naps and bedtime in his Amby and I KNOW that he knows how to fall asleep on his own.  He just won't do it when he wakes in the middle of the night.  What's up with that?
Janice Ann- I haven't started pat/shh just yet, but I have the same questions. 
Aren't you supposed to stop when they start to settle, then start back if they get upset?

[Janice Anne]

I'm a little confused by what to do exactly. I've read where we should be continually doing the pat/shh until they are in a deep sleep, but I've already read you should only do both the pat and the shh for 20min then stop the shh and continue with the pat until they appear to be in deep sleep. I'm confused as to how this will allow them to learn the skill of self-soothing if we are doing the soothing for them.

 Janice

[JennŠ]

As far as the pat/shh go, it's kinda individualized to the babe.  Mine needed butt patting with the occasional shh.  I quit when she was in a deep sleep.  How it teaches self soothing is that you gradually wean the amount of time at it. 

[Shellha]

Hi there

I had mountains of problems around the same age as your LO so I hope you don't mind me putting my 5c worth in now that we are on an even keel!!!

In relation to 2 of your original questions:
1. Moving crib to new room - my DS is an extremely spirited and alert baby so we were quite concerned about moving him from our room to one on his own (no older siblings here) but he went straight in there without a peep. That said he does alot of travelling so is used to sleeping in different rooms/cribs. We moved him from a moses basket to a crib at around 6 weeks (he was a big boy) - as Kat said I think it will be more the transition from swing to crib than room to room.

Binkie - we still use a dummy (only when going to sleep, and he spits it out) and have never had a dependence issue. I think that you look at slow transitions, eg use the dummy while moving to crib, or to new room etc. You don't want top overload the poor little fella and you don;t want to add any extra pressure/stress to your life either!

I too accidentally parented around your DSs age due to overseas trip and a whole host of probs but we got back on track, and as you have been there before you know it does get easier ;-)

Good luck, and I think you are a wonder woman for doing this with 2 kids - I can only just manage the one :-)

Shell x

[hoosiermama]

An update.  We started sleep training with Pat/shh today in his crib.  The first nap we tried went beautifully, he was asleep in 5 min, but only slept for 45.  Of course now it is a different story.  My husband and I have been trying for the last hour with pat/shh and to no avail.  (Of course our cats and our first son have not helped as he was almost asleep on 2 seperate occaisons and was woken up both times! ).  Now of course he is really upset and screaming, but DH is in there patting and shhing up a storm, so we will see how it goes....

[nursekat]

hoosiermama, could you post your routine again?  And post both what you are attempting and what today actually looked like (as far as short naps, wind-down routine, etc.).  Maybe we can see what else might be going on...