3 month old - are NW's ever from hunger if your LO wakes up 'gently'?

[lynners]

My LO doesn't wake up loudly at night so I'm now wondering if it really is because of hunger - it's more of a whimper/chat/grunt, not a cry/scream.   I've always fed him though as the NW's tended to be around 3 or 4-ish hours apart so I've assumed hunger. Granted he does eat when I offer it but that doesn't necessarily mean a lot.   

I've decided if any NW's are less than 4 hours apart (which is how long he can last in the day) to not feed and either allow to re-settle or shhh back to sleep (doesn't seem to like the pat).  A couple of times I've left him just chattering/whimpering at his first NW to see what would happen and it has escalated so I have fed him but maybe we should be shh-ing him to sleep.  Do you think an NW is ever for hunger if they don't wake up screaming for it (DS1 woke loudly but I'm not sure if that's the norm)?  I do appreciate that our nights are pretty typical for his age (one DF and 1 or 2 NW's) but if he is not waking for hunger I'd really rather not re-inforce the night feeds.  Hey who wouldn't want their LO to STTN if at all possible. 

[Lolly]

I think how they wake depends on the personality of the baby really! My two were never screamers for food, even in the night! At 3 months though if it's been at least 4 hours from the last feed I would definitly assume hunger and feed. I think trying to resettle if it's less than 4 hours is fine, if he doesn't settle quickly, the cry escalates or he wakes soon after settling then I would also assume hunger and feed.

HTH!

Laura

[lynners]

Thanks for your advice.  So with your two did the NW's for feeds just slowly disappear or did you have to settle them through NW's to teach them to STTN.  IF so how did you feel confident whether or not an NW was for hunger if they didn't scream - as they got older I mean.

[Lolly]

We did activly wean nightfeeds, but my two were refluxers who wouldn't take a dreamfeed so they were a bit different. I can't remember what we did with DS, but with DD we activly weaned the nightfeed when she was just over 8 months. She was taking a good amount of milk and was fairly well established on solids by then so I knew she was getting enough in the day. We weaned the feed by reducing it by 1oz every 3 nights and then just offered water when the bottle got down to about 2oz.

It is quite common for babies to still need the nightfeed up until they are established on solids. If they take a feed in the night and are hungry when they first wake up you know they do need that feed, sometimes the night feed starts having an impact on the first feed of the day and then it's better to reduce it a bit or wean it.

As a rule of thumb though if you can settle them but they wake within the next 30 or so minutes it's generally because they are hungry!

Laura

[lynners]

Thanks Lolly - really helpful.

Often my LO's first feed isn't great.  I'm breastfeeding at the moment so to potentially reduce the feed at the NW is a bit tricky, but perhaps I could get my husband to try and re-settle and, if it's over four hours, assume it is hunger either if he won't re-settle or of he re-settles and wakes up within half an hour.

I know he's still young but what do you think?

[Lolly]

I would get your DH to resettle up to 4 hours, once you get to the 4 hour point I would assume hunger and just feed to be honest. Breastfed babies do need nightfeeds longer than bottle fed babies because breastmilk is so quickly digested - the nightfeeds are also good for your long term supply.

I always found feeding and resettling quickly much easier than trying to resettle only to be up again shortly afterwards feeding!

Laura

[Erin M]

We did shorter feeds for a bit-- one sided feeds work to get enough in them to hold them over but still hungry awake up time.

[lynners]

Thanks ladies - much appreciated x

Erin M - I already only do one-sided feeds at night.  When I decide to reduce them have you any other tips for making them shorter.  Do I just keep taking him off in the hope that he won't want more, but give him more if he does?  I remember that being along the lines of the 'Pantley's Removal Plan' which I used with DS1 so he learnt not to fall asleep at the breast.

[Erin M]

I'd try shortening the duration and then trying to settle him in his bed after that.  The Pantley stuff works really well for some, but it seems to make others just frustrated. 

[lynners]

Thanks Erin.  The theory of shortening is good but I'm not sure how well it would work on my LO.  If he still wants to keep going he'd be very fractious I think.

Normally in the day time my LO is very much in control of how much food he wants i.e. he feed until he's full and then pulls off.  Great in that he doesn't comfort suck but his day feeds can often feel shorter than his night ones and no amount of encouraging can get him back on 

With his night feeds sometimes he can feed effectively and then just pull off to sleep.  Last night he woke at 1.20 and did just that, but the 5.00 feed he seemed to guzzle and then comfort suck, pull himself off then get upset and start rooting again.  He did this about 10 times.  I eventually thought maybe I was empty and he wanted some more so I relented and offered him the other side which he took (certainly not offering him less!)  But now I think he really was comfort sucking because he was perfectly happy when latched on.  It was only when off he was getting fractious...and of course when he woke up at 7.20 he wasn't the least bit interested in food and only had a tiny bit an hour or so later.  Hmmm.

[Erin M]

Yes, that whole shortening thing is much easier in theory!  Does it throw your day off to feed at 5 and then top up at 7?  Sometimes it's just what they need to do at that age.

[lynners]

No it's not a disaster but I suppose the combination of the fact that LO wakes so quietly at night and that his 7.00 morning feed tends to be negligible makes me question how much he needs the 4/5 feed.

PP Laura made me realise that not all babies scream out for food so my baby's whimper/chat may mean hunger, but today when he woke at 5 he literally was just kicking about in the moses basket for a while without being vocal at all for at least 5/10 minutes before he started making gentle noises. 

[Erin M]

You might need a routine tweak to make the 5AM waking go away then -- wakings at that point are not often due entirely to hunger, but once they're awake, our LOs might decide that they are actually hungry and that a feed might be nice, YK? 

[lynners]

Hi Erin,

Feel like I'm juggling you on two boards now. Sorry about that but everything's so interlinked.  Thanks so much for your response.

As you know from the Naps board I am trying to tweak my routine around my school runs so hopefully that might also help with the NW's as you suggest.

Last night we had an NW at 3.20 when I fed and then another at 5.50 - only 2 1/2 hours apart and I know I'd said I wasn't going to feed unless it was at least four hours but I did feed.  Aaaargh!!!    I was thinking I need to get LO to be able to sleep until my preferred WU time of 7.15 to work around the school runs, so I just chose the easier way - feeding rather than settling.  On the plus side he did go back to sleep and needed to be woken at 7.15.  On the negative side, here I am trying to reduce the night feeds if possible but I seem to be adding to/reinforcing them. Annoyed at myself but also torn between the importance of a later wake up and not feeding at night when LO's not properly hungry. 

[Erin M]

Feel like I'm juggling you on two boards now

So true.  I'll get with the naps mods so we can put these two together so it makes more sense for everyone. 

Last night we had an NW at 3.20 when I fed and then another at 5.50 - only 2 1/2 hours apart and I know I'd said I wasn't going to feed unless it was at least four hours but I did feed.  Aaaargh!!!    I was thinking I need to get LO to be able to sleep until my preferred WU time of 7.15 to work around the school runs, so I just chose the easier way - feeding rather than settling. 

Ugh, it's so hard isn't it, especially because you're trying to get him to sleep to get the better nap and get rid of the EWs, right?  I'd see how your day goes and then if it doesn't go well, you can beat yourself up over feeding at 5ish (just kidding, don't beat yourself up at all over it...). 
You'll have to let us know how your day works out!