Author Topic: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2  (Read 29338 times)

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Offline lesorl

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12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« on: February 27, 2008, 11:58:02 am »
Seeing as my old post is about to be locked (and we still are struggling), I'm starting a new one.

Here are the pertinent facts (let me know if I've missed anything Laura, Nic, and Katt):
 *M will be 14 mo on 3/2.
 *We've always battled short naps (from about 6 weeks old) usually lasting 35-37 mins, with an occasional longer nap of more than 1 hour.
 *I've tried 1 nap at a set time/ 2 naps at set times/ shortening the am nap and trying for a longer pm nap.
 *She was being rocked to sleep, but we've been sleep training again and now she goes to sleep mostly independently (combination GW and WI/PD/WO).
 *She uses a paci

The last 7 days, I've been going for 1 nap at 11:30am.  Her wakeups are still early (today it was 4:30am, so I think it'll be 2 naps, 1st one about 9am), and she goes to sleep very early (4:30pm-5pm).  She's mostly been sleeping through the night the last few days.  The nap was lasting 40 mins the first couple days, and has since gone done to 30 mins, and I try to extend with WI/PD- wait til she's b2s/WO.  For a few days she'd only go b2s for about 10 mins, yesterday it was 29 mins.

I'm at my wits end, and hoping Layla will have some new ideas.  I'm afraid I'm stressing Momma Holmes, new mum, and skatty, who really deserve fees for all the time and advice they've given me!

Offline MommaHolmes

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2008, 12:46:40 pm »
Just to add - you originally tried going to 1 nap about 6/8 weeks ago as she was having two very short naps and sometimes refusing pm nap, this started to settle about a week in with longer naps and nights but then M got poorly. Went back to 2 naps for 4 weeks or so, started sleep training (which sorted out her night sleep) but naps were still only 30ish mins in the am and she started refusing pm nap again.

We suggested moving back to 1 nap routine as this had started to be successful originally. Also recommended that pm A time should be no longer than 4.5 hrs to try and prevent OT nights, hence the 11:30 nap time.

Any other ideas gratefully received!!
<img src="http://b2.lilypie.com/jmXlp1.png" border="0" width="400" height="80" />
<img src="http://b1.lilypie.com/XNgkp1.png" border="0" width="400" height="80" />

Offline NiknLily

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2008, 13:01:28 pm »
We've also discussed possible food allergies which apparently she hasn't got but Skatty suggested maybe keeping a food diary to see if its a food intolerance at play.  We have also discussed a sleep therapist but Leslie has not found one in the NY area who doesn't use CIO or CC.

I think in essence we have suggested and Leslie has tried everything we can think of.  Each time we have tried something new Leslie has stuck to the new routine for at least a week to give every change in routine a chance to stick.

I for one have everything crossed that pretty soon the 1 nap routine should start to improve, it did before so we are hoping it will again  :)


Offline skatty

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 14:15:44 pm »
OMG, I can't believe it has been 2 months and a new thread  :-[ Just think how many BWs in the future will gain some insight from this thread - we have to get a positive out of this somewhere  ;)
Katt






Offline LCandB

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2008, 15:25:18 pm »
Hi Lesorl -

Like many I am sure, I have kept up with your situation through reading on the 2-1 switch thread and then your last thread - and I've definitely been rooting for you and M.  At the end of your last thread you mentioned that you gave M a longer A time last night before bed.  Now I can't vouch for every kiddo but allow me to tell you what I found is true for my LO.

DD is also going through the 2-1 switch and I mucked it up for awhile.  Like M, she started refusing her pm nap or would take two miniscule naps during the day.  I tried shortening the am nap to save a pm nap, which in retrospect I should have probably just started pushing her A time in the morning because she always slept better in the morning.  Anyways, after a bit of this I found that even when I gave her 2 naps a day, we'd only get a 45 minute nap all day, so I was moving her bedtime earlier and earlier to make up for the lost sleep.  After awhile it ended up biting me in the backside - she would catch up on the missed sleep but her wake ups started getting earlier and earlier and she would wake clearly rested.  But, she would then be unable to make it to the later nap.  Things just got wonky and it was a total downward spiral - totally maddening!  I couldn't figure it out and I was seriously obsessing about it all.

So I just said, "It can't get much worse!"  So basically I just set her on clock times and ran the risk of longer A times causing OT.  Amazingly she was able to handle the longer A time way better than I ever anticipated.  We've been sticking to it for a week today, and yesterday I got a freaking hour and 42 minute nap and honestly I danced around my house.  This after only getting a 30-40 minute nap all day for awhile. I kind of think that because everything was always so variable, dd could never reset her wake/sleep rhythms to know what to expect.

Basically, the purpose of that whole diatribe was just to say that if you think M could handle some longer A time before bed, then maybe try it?  What do you have to lose at this point?  I am so hopeful for you guys and you WILL get through this.  I will also add that it has taken a full week of set clock time following to see a difference and we could go backwards at any time, but I do think I was putting her to bed way too soon after her naps. Fingers crossed that you can come up a solution that will work for you guys!  ;)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 16:36:07 pm by LCandB »
Mom to DD 2.22.2007 & DS 6.20.2009, born at home in the water!

Offline LCandB

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2008, 15:32:48 pm »
Also, I was just looking back and it seems like she is getting a good night's sleep of 12 hours, so that's good!  My dd will do the same; but with such an early wake up its almost impossible to get her to 11:30 I would imagine.  Its a risky proposition, but have you tried keeping her later at night?  I know that early to bed typically means they won't rise earlier, and sometimes that works for us, but after a few days of early to bed, my LO catches up and then her wakeup begins creeping earlier (11.5-12) hours from bedtime.  So we'd add just 15 minutes to her A time before her bedtime for a bit to shift her schedule, maybe that would work?  I defer to the other experts on this one
Mom to DD 2.22.2007 & DS 6.20.2009, born at home in the water!

Offline skatty

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2008, 16:19:24 pm »
That sounds like great advice Beth, your situation is pretty similar don't you think Leslie? Perhaps you should try it for more than a week? I know there are other kids on the board that can handle a longer A time in the PM than the AM but I think it's more unusual but like you say it can't get much worst can it?
Katt






Offline lesorl

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2008, 16:51:20 pm »
LCandB- thanks for your advice.  What is your dd's current routine like?  M was up at 4:30am today, so I gave her a nap at 9am (of course, 30 mins she slept), so it'll be 2 naps today.  My goal is to get her in bed later today, and hopefully she'll sleep later tomorrow.


Offline LCandB

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2008, 17:37:23 pm »
Lesorl -

Okay here's how we started off.  Bear with me with because chances are this will be a novel, so sorry in advance.
DD started making the shift about a month and a half ago, where she’d take a morning nap and then refuse everything else.  After reading every 2-1 post I could find I felt like we had to have an afternoon nap to get her through.  Anyways, I first cut her am nap to 45 minutes, which worked for about 2 weeks to still give me something that resembled a pm nap.  Then she would wake on her own at 45 minutes in the am and still refuse her pm nap.  So I tried to shift her A time further in the am, hoping for a longer am nap and then try a pm catnap and ended up with a baby that would wake from her 11:30 nap at 45 minutes and refuse any other nap.  So I tried 4.5 hours from there putting her to bed.  It would work for a few days but then she’d catch up and start waking at 4:30 am.  Which, as you well know, ruled out making it to 11:30 for her nap.  So I started playing with A times after her nap wakeup and found she could handle 5 hours.  She continued to sleep 11.5 – 12 hours at night (which she has for a long time) and then give me an hour nap. Then that started to backfire – again, she’d catch up on sleep and start waking early again.  So I finally just bit the bullet and realized we were all over the place with wake times, nap times and bed times – basically her body was so confused about what happened when.  So I decided to set a clock time for wake up, nap and bedtime – heck, it couldn’t get much worse than where we were and I figured if we were going to fight OT that maybe we could fix it in the right direction, so to speak, towards the ideal schedule.  So I figured out what would work best for our schedule (with her activities – playgroup, music class and swimming) and with DH being able to see her at least for 20 minutes a day and came up with this:
6:30 -7 – wake
12 – nap
7- bedtime
Being that our ideal would be 5 to 5.5 hours awake time before the nap, 2 hour nap, and then 5 hours after nap.  I knew it was going to be rough going into it, and that even though I was exhausted beforehand that this wouldn’t last forever.  I also operated on the belief from reading Weissbluth and others that a nap of an hour is restorative so that often if wasn’t likely they’d go back to sleep if they fully awoke at that point.
For the first 2 days, she was barely making it to noon as she had awoken so early and then her nap was all of about 30-45 minutes.  If she woke earlier than an hour I would do everything to extend, WIPDWO (and on 2 occasions I nursed her back to sleep – APOP, which really didn’t help imo) to an hour.  She never went back to sleep during those attempts.  I then held her up for those two days until 6:00.  If she woke before 6 or had NW, I would WIPDWO until 6.  On days 3-5 she was going down for an hour for her nap – and I mean an hour to the second, and I was pushing her bedtime to 6:30.  The afternoons were NOT easy but we persevered.  On Monday, she got up at 6:45 am, went down for an hour at noon and woke an hour later.  It was rough but I kept her up and put her down at 7pm.  I heard her wake at 6:00 on Monday morning, did one WIPDWO, because I knew she needed to sleep to catch up and then woke her at 7.  She still needs quiet time at her old naptime of 10, so we have been doing a snack and snuggles with mommy to tide her over, but she made it and I put her down at 11:50. She talked for a bit and then went to sleep.  I even put a small space heater in her room for background noise.  I did hear her at the hour mark but amazingly she rolled over and went back to sleep for another 42 minutes.  Can I just tell you what a joy she was after a good nap?  So I then held her out till 7 pm for bed and she woke at 6:45 this morning without so much as a sound during the night.  She also seemed much better equipped this am to handle the 5 hours of awake time.  She’s now down for her nap and is at the hour mark, so I am hoping we will make it further today.  I am just happy with anything over an hour at this point.  I promised myself that come hell or high water we were going to stick with the clock times this entire week and not do any AP, because all I do when I do that is make her more confused.  She needs me to teach her how to do this thing, so to speak.
Now, this is a risky prospect in my opinion, because you do risk OT, but nothing else was moving us in the right direction.  It also takes drawing up all the emotional reserves you have because when they only sleep for 45 minutes its hard to keep them engaged and deal with my little crankypants to get to the “clockset” bedtime, but I figured it was worth it if we came out on the other side in a better place.  I’ll let you know in a bit how today’s nap turned out. 
Hang in there, I know your frustration well – I have struggled with PTSD/PPD from a rough pregnancy so this on top of it made it really hard for me to enjoy my dd.  But, just having ONE good day yesterday – made it ALL worthwhile.
Mom to DD 2.22.2007 & DS 6.20.2009, born at home in the water!

Offline lesorl

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2008, 18:02:59 pm »
Forgive me- I need a little more clarification LCandB:

What happens when your dd gets up before 6am?  Or is it that in theory, if I put her to bed at 7pm, she'd wake after 6am?  Cause I'm having trouble getting to the 11:30am naptime with a 5:30am (or earlier) wakeup.

Offline LCandB

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2008, 18:12:25 pm »
If she woke before 6 - which she hasn't the past 3 days now - I did WIPDWO until 6 or she went back to sleep.  Several times she did NOT go back to sleep, but I still held her to the set nap time of 12.  At her old naptime I would give her a snack with protein to get her through and then we would seriously dance around, go outside and walk, do anything possible to keep her awake. After a couple of days she was sleeping later and handling the A time better, but it was one heck of a stretch the first few days - we were all exhausted. 

For the record, she just woke at an hour and a half and is playing quietly in her crib now.  That, I will take all day long!  I will let her stay up there until she cries or hits the "2 hour mark".  Heck, its possible she could even go back to sleep - but I know better, LOL. For us, I also have the sneaking suspicion that my dd may be able to get by on 11.5 hours at night and perhaps add that additional 30 minutes to her nap - but that's off topic.

Typically will M sleep a 11.5/12 hour stretch at night these days?
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Offline lesorl

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2008, 18:15:57 pm »
She's been sleeping about 11 hours-12 hours, with the occasional OT NW.

I don't know how I'm going to keep her up for so long- the other day she fell asleep in the stroller, which she NEVER does.  Maybe some running around?

She slept about 30-35 mins this morning, and now she's taking a 2nd nap (!).  Not sure if that's good or bad.

Offline LCandB

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2008, 18:25:13 pm »
No, I think that's good that she's taking a second nap today - a 2 nap day is what allowed us to get to the later bedtime in the first place.  Have you envisioned what your ideal day would look like yet?  If you could post that, then maybe we can work from there?

Ditch the stroller while you're trying to keep her up - she needs to be moving and engaged, rather than passive.  Do you have any kid's music cds?  You can hold her and dance around with her, or let her stand and you hold her hands and dance.  Fully expect the first nap day to be only a 30-45 minutes OT nap since A)that's what she's used to and B)she will be so exhausted(but you've got that anyways) - but it did eventually lengthen for us.  I think you live in the city so taking her out and letting her walk on her own is most likely not an option - that usually buys us some time here.  I just introduced crayons to my dd - so we would sit on the floor and color.  Lots of singing and dancing mainly.  When all else failed I would call DH or my mom and put them on speakerphone to talk to her.  One day I even put her in the shower with me to keep her up.  ;D

Days 1-4 of this were the worst and I thought I was going to lose my mind, but a week later and we are in a much better place for sure.
Mom to DD 2.22.2007 & DS 6.20.2009, born at home in the water!

Offline LCandB

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2008, 18:36:18 pm »
Also, I will add that we had 4 NW the first couple of nights, most she resettled from by herself very quickly but on 2 occasions it progressed beyond mantra cry and I did PD for those. 

Dare I say it, but I think she may have gone back to sleep now?
Mom to DD 2.22.2007 & DS 6.20.2009, born at home in the water!

Offline lesorl

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Re: 12 month old (now almost 14 mo) with 30-45 min naps- THREAD 2
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2008, 19:04:51 pm »
Well we had about a 40-45 min nap,  but she woke up crying  :(

The good news is that for the last 3 sleeps (bedtime and 2 naps) I only laid her in her crib and walked out.  She protested a little, but went right to sleep.

Aiming for a 6:30pm bedtime.

Not sure about my ideal day- I suspect she's only going to sleep about 11.5 hours, so 7pm-6:30pm.