Clock times or A times????

[kvmom]

newmum and jcsmom, may I ask how old your los was when you went cold turkey to one nap?  I have a 12 mos son and Ihve been trying to get him to one nap.  It seems that the only way I can get two naps outof him is by feeding him to sleep.  He is also waking early at 5 am and I need to feed him back to sleep as well for another 30-45 min.  I guess that there will be NWs for awhile, so do you just deal with it for a while?  How long?

Sorry to hijack this thread Leslie but I'm getting so depresed b/c of this.  I just want a quick solution or at least aplan so i can stick to it thick and thin.

[lesorl]

hi jcsmom-

we are having fun, aren't we?  Madeline's is very spirited, so if she's awake, it's rare she'll go b2s.  More likely she'll scream the house down.   I have blackout shades and white noise, but nothing seems to help.  It's soooo frustrating!  It would be ok if that's all the sleep she needed, but clearly it's not.

she almost passed out in her high chair today at 11:30am, but i kept her up til 11:55am.  Praying hard we don't get only 30 mins.

someday the stars will take pity on me!

EDIT- she slept 45 mins    I did some APOP and let her sleep another 40 mins on me.  This blows!

[NiknLily]

kvmom, DD was about 17m I think when we went completly cold turkey, 2-1t started at about 15m (she's textbook!)  There are a whole lot of LO's who do transition young and do so very well, there are others who are older and still really struggle.

Leslie honestly I only got 45mins out of her for at least first month, I did tons of APOP before I managed to get any longer than 45mins however I tried, so really the fact that she slept another 40mins would of been fantastic in my book.  You can't always do things how you know they should be done, sometimes you just do what you have too, well a lot of the time in my experience and Lily was text/book angel baby who's now angel/textbook toddler.  I can't imagine dealing with a stronger personality type LO.

(I know, I know.... you want it to be perfect  )

[Deb_in_oz]

kvmom - there is currently a thread going about going cold turkey if you want to jump on board that one (we did it at 11 mo with our spirited one)

hugs lesorl.

[lesorl]

Well this just is going to put me over the edge.  We're back in OT land, where for the last 2 nights she won't go to sleep herself and needs to be rocked.  I'm going to have a breakdown, I swear.

Kill me now.

[jcsmom]

Ahhhh HUGS! I know how hard it is. Please don't think that I was suggesting that you let her CIO. I meant in my post to give her a bit of time to settle back down. I thought that once my DS was up he was up, but during this whole 2-1 thing I find that if he wakes early he needs some time to work it out on his own. Today he woke after 70 mins and he fussed for 5 mins and back for another hour almost. Of course if it gets to be anything other than a fuss or mantra, I go in do wi/wo.I found pd just made him freak out more. Have you tried wi/wo when she wakes early from a nap? I can't remember. I did at the beginning to get his body used to being down at a particular time. He only ever went b2s a few times. I really think that this has helped with him going b2s now if he wakes early. Or at least I hope all of my hard work has paid off.

My DS has always had a difficult time with transitioning from one sleep cycle to the next. And he still does. I hear him at the same times every night; 3 hours after bedtime and about 1.5 hours before waking. He has been doing this since he was 3 months or so. I used to rush in and now I give him some time, usually he just yelps or cries out. But during nap time it's louder but I am sure it's the same thing. I really don't have any advice, I just wanted to share my story so you know that there are others really struggling right along with you.

[Peek-a-boo]

Here's a thought . . . it's a long shot . . . but thought I'd throw it out there . . .

This is what we were doing at this age with my spirited LO. . .

About 3 hours after waking, we ran errands in the car or stroller and he took a cat nap for 20 minutes.  It absolutely couldn't last longer than 20 minutes and it had to be with a prop because he wasn't tired enough to fall asleep w/o props.  Then about 3.5 hours after that he went down independently in his crib for a "big" nap that usually lasted about 1.5 hours (which was a first for him, he'd never napped that long in his life). 

This was on about 10.5, maybe 11 hours of night sleep.

[lesorl]

Ugh- she finally fell asleep at 8pm (after much tossing and turning and rocking and kicking the bars on her crib), and was up again at 5:54am.

jcsmom- I'm always afraid to leave her be after she starts making noise, as if I don't get to her quickly upon waking, she won't go b2s.

I think it's highly unlikely she'll fall asleep 3 hours after waking, even with a paci in the stroller.  She only sleeps in the stroller or car when it's around naptime 

Is this kid not unbelievable re: naps?  It's unreal that I haven't been committed to an institution yet.

Leslie

[NiknLily]

Hi Leslie
Just a cautionary note re the rocking.  I know sometimes they really do need intervention to help sleep but try not to rock.  On a few occasions I have held Lily to sleep, when she is just so damn tired, way way OT, is trying to sleep but just can't then I have resorted to cuddling her to sleep, but I never rock, it kills the back and is just too much of a prop.  But when I have had to do this guess what she expects next time, holding to sleep and we then have a huge battle over her falling asleep on her own and not being held, I could of been fooled many a time that she needed holding to sleep again, but really she was just trying it on.  I know M is too young for actual manipulation but she is definitly smart enough to know about cause and effect, 'this is how I get mummy to rock me to sleep'.

On the occasions I would have to hold her I found it only worked once she had got really past the point of settling at all and was getting frantic, then if I picked her up and just held her real close and tight she would just melt and pass out easily.  I have no experience of spiriteds but I would guess that rocking may be just adding to the stimulus of not getting to sleep.

I do agree with jcsmom, sometimes when I have had to leave Lily to it for longer than normal, mainly for my own sanity so I can calm right down, then I found that she could do it, and she would go back to sleep on her own.  I would of course feel horribly guilty that she was crying and making a fuss before passing out but it was never for more than 5-10mins and I don't see it as cio either as she knows full well that I would never abandone her after all the time spent doing BW sleep techniques, we have a strong enough bond of trust for it not to be abandonment. 

i know you know all this stuff but its easy to loose sight of when your in the thick of it.

Hugs x

[jcsmom]

I am so sorry that you are still going through this. I feel the same as you, crazy!LOL. I have fought with my DS sleep pretty much since he was born. I keep thinking that this month is the month that he will "get better" but alas that is never the case.

I am thinking that OT is setting in but if you keep plodding along, you'll get there. I moved back and forth from one nap to 2, early bedtimes etc but really the only thing that worked for us was sticking to clock times and we are pretty much there. I still get NW but he settles himself after 2-5 mins so I don't really count them as NW. I am sure they are due to OT, but his naps have lengthened and we have a normal bedtime now. This is after 3 months. I shouldn't say anything as I know by saying it, I curse myself!

I used to run in every time he woke early from a nap to get him b2s but I think that this worked against me. My DS is a restless sleeper and wakes himself easily. I found that if he knew I would rush right in and nurse/rock him he wouldn't attempt to get back to sleep himself. After weeks of wi/wo during naps, and leaving him to settle a bit longer(10 mins)if he wakes early before I intervene he has started sleeping longer. I found that too much stimulation, like rocking made things worse as he is spirited as well. I find that I can read his cry when he wakes early, it's like " I am awake, but I don't want to be". Sometimes he just needs to work it out alone. I am always outside his room and he knows I am there, I am sure. I just try to hold off a bit before going in. By giving him 1.5 hours in his bed, with wi/wo and self settling, I think this has set his body clock. It may be worth giving wi/wo a try even if you have to do it for 45 mins-1 hour to get to 1.5 hours. It's worth a shot right?I did it several days to get to 2 hours. If she doesn't go b2s then you know you have given her the chance for a good nap. In this case, you may need to bring bedtime forward by a bit, but I found that after a week, it began to work.

I am no expert, but I do know what it is like to have a child who doesn't sleep according to any rules so giving everything a shot is well worth it. Maybe she will nap at 3 hours post wake up in the car. Even for a few days to avoid OT. There were a few times last month where I drove around for 45 mins just for a 15-20 min nap!

[lesorl]

Well my brilliant mom didn't put her down until 12:20pm, and she slept 1 hour. 

We don't own a car (we live in the city), so it's stroller or nothing for a 20 min nap.  And she's so spirited, so wants to look and see all that's going on outside.

I don't know if I have the stamina for WI/WO right now, as in the past it's gone on for more than 1 hour, and I just can't take it.  I'm expecting another night of "I don't want to go to sleep now, b/c I'm too OT".  As soon as I leave the room, she screams the house down.

[NiknLily]

Leslie
I think an hour nap is bloody good, I would of given my right arm to have Lily do an hour nap when we went cold turkey, which I'm thinking is what jcsmom is saying too (sounds like we had a similar experience)

I think reading between the lines, (and shoot me down if I'm barking up the wrong tree) but if you've done wi/wo for an hour then given up before now or done it 1 time then not felt you had the stamina to repeat the performance the next night this is sending clear messages to M that she can manipulate you, even if she isn't doing it to be malicious.  At about this age I really started to notice that Lily was woking my buttons over sleep, she knew what she wanted and how to get it.  You do have to start to get tough with them and be no nonsence, 'you are going to sleep however long it takes you', 'no we're not done with nap time and I'm going to make this plain by doing wi/wo when you wake at 40mins for the next 20-40mins with you'.  Honestly she will get it and if she screams the house down for a few days until she figures these are the new ways and mum seems to mean it, then so be it.  I know in an apartment thats not what you really want to be doing but my neighbours (we have very thin party walls)just had to put up with it for a short while and I bet they didn't find it so hard to listen to as me ;-)

I know you've always had trouble with her naps but I think a lot of your new trouble is more being caused by the fact you now have a smart toddler, not a baby purely working on instinct!

[jcsmom]

new mum, I think that what you are saying may be true, at least it was for my son. I began to have the "my poor OT baby" syndrome and I ran in there every time he made a peep to avoid OT and either rocked/nursed, got him up or did wi/wo and really didn't give him time to settle. This past weekend was the breaking point for me when I wanted to go out for a very rare night out with my friends and he would not go down until 8:30. I did wi/wo for an hour, then I caved and nursed and off to la-la land he went. It was then I realised that he knew I would do that as I had so many times before.

So this week I have been no nonsense and sure enough after 2 days, he has got it!He has been sleep trained before so I know that when I give an inch he takes a mile but it only takes a few days for him to get that I mean business. Monday I did wi/wo after a short nap for the remainder of 2 hours. I have also increased the amount of time I give him to settle. I know I was not listening to his cry but rather I was worrying about OT so I for sure went in more than I know he needed me to out of fear that if I didn't get him b2s he would be OT. But I think in fact I was making him OT. It was exhausting. But all week I haven't caved and he is finally pretty much STTN and today...........2.5 hour nap! He woke after 1 hour 40 mins which in my books is a miracle, I turned off the tv and went to go and get him and he went silent. So all these times I have rushed in he would've gone b2s I think. I finally got him to bed at a normal time 7:30!

Sorry to write such huge novels but I know that you have been struggling like crazy and I have too, just as badly. Your posts have helped me tremendously. Is there anyone who can help you? Are you getting enough sleep?

[skatty]

Leslie I know you are tired but remember WIWO worked for you last time  Also just wanted to add that when L gets OT she sometimes needs to have a complete meltdown before she can fall asleep, it's like she has to get rid of the horrible OT energy and then passes out, we then always have her cry out 3 hours later, I always know she's OT if we hear her then.

[lesorl]

Last night she fell asleep drinking her bottle, around 6:25pm, and woke today at 6:02am.  That I can live with