Need help with naps please please - 7.5 months

[Tobysmum]

Well, the clocks changing have resulted in a real mess to be honest!  I have no clue what I'm doing now    It's back to square one I fear just when I was starting to feel more positive.

Yesterday (Sunday) was a strange day (clocks changed)

E 5.30am (one side then put back to sleep)
S
E 7.15am
E 8.15am solids
E Small BF before nap as may have woken from nap hungry if a long nap - put down awake.
S 8.35am
A 9.15am
E 10.15am (BF)
S 10.55am (fell asleep in DH's arms on a children's train ride at a party!)
A 11.35am
E 12.30 Solids
E 1.30 pm (BF) (had started to drift off to sleep in my arms but had second wind when I'd finished the feed)
S 2.25pm (put down 2.20pm)
A 3.30pm (we had to wake him as we were going to a halloween party - TYPICAL!)
E 4.00 (solids - he was hungry)
E 6.15pm BF
S 6.45pm (went straight to sleep no problems)
E 12.30am (both sides)
E 5.25am

Today:
E 5.25am (1 side)
Put back to sleep
A 6.20am
E 6.45/7.00/7.15 (took a while to get him to take a full feed)
E 7.50am Solids
S 9.30am (he was tired by then)
A 9.50 am (20 min nap?! - great!)
E 10.30am (took 3 ounces from a cup from my sitter)
E 11.20am took BF from me as hadn't had a good feed at 10,30am
E 12.00pm (solids)
S 12.10pm
He's asleep now.

Hmmmm - so today is a right off really as far as usual A times go - but I guess it's down to the clocks changing.  I tried to get his nap as close to normal nap time today - but he was obviously OT by the 20 min nap (although he woke happy) and even when I put him down at 12.00 today, he was still happy and not showing any tiredness cues! i.e. no tiredness cues and he had had 5hrs and 40 mins A time with only a 20 min nap - see what I mean about it being tricky to read cues!!!!  I have no idea if I put him down at the right time or not, but given how much A time he'd had with so little sleep, I felt it would have been stupid to leave it any longer.

Any comments about today and yesterday's EASY and also advice for me on how to try and get back on track (or at least to where we were before!)

[deckchariot]

Things will just be wonky with the time change - not much to be done about that.  You have your plan, and I'd say to stick to that.  I found at around 6 mos, Abby's tired cues became very hard to read - what I thought was "tired" was often "bored", so I found by switching up her activity a bit I could extend her.  Have you thought about my suggestion from yesterday to start pushing out the morning A time to 3 hr 15 min?  Do you think he could handle it?  Just keep trying to be as consistent as possible with those A times.  Has it been 3-5 days of the 3 hr A time for the morning?  If so, and his naps are still 40ish min (don't count the time change hang up), then I'd say you need to extend that first A time, but for now, keep the others the same as in your plan based on how he naps.

It looks like you are often out and about - and that will mean that his naps will never be exactly what you want them to be.  It's a balancing act of realizing that when we go out, naps will be wonky.  So when Abby was on 2 + naps a day, my goal was to try to get her 1 good nap at home every day, and then if I needed to get out, I could flex on one or more naps - knowing that meant I would probably have an OT baby.  Then, if we had a couple days in a row that were off, I'd stay home so she could catch up.  I couldn't stay home all the time, I'd go crazy, but she needed me to sometimes so she didn't go crazy.  It's finding a balance that works for you and your bub, and knowing that when you're out, you have to be ready for the OT bub that will often be the result.

[Tobysmum]

Thanks for your reply.  Looking at my log, I think I have done at least 3 days of 3hrs 1st A time and get around 45 mins nap - apart from today when I got 20 min nap after 3hrs 5 min A time but I'll put that down to the clock change!  Previous to that I had tried putting him down at 9.15am regardless of when he woke. 

I have absolutely no idea whether he could handle a longer A time or not in the morning.  By all means, I can try doing an A time of 3hrs 15 mins for the next 3 days or so and see where that takes us - obviously if he is showing signs that he can't handle it, I may just have to accept a shorter morning nap. I am guessing that some babies are just destined to have a 30-45 min nap in the morning??  I still really struggle I think with the exact time he wakes - I am sure he just lies there before actually making some noise but obviously I can't be sure - that's what's slightly worrying about doing a set A time for the first nap is if he's woken much earlier than I think, we could have a very overtired baby on our hands!  We do have the baby monitor in our room (turned down low admittedly as those night wakings are soooo loud that we hear him on low!) - perhaps I should turn the monitor up after that last night waking

To be honest, we aren't out and about that much - this Sunday yes, we had a birthday party in the morning and a halloween party in the afternoon - but that is certainly not the norm thank goodness!  We do go to playdates (because I have a toddler), usually in the afternoon AFTER naps - but probably only 2-3 per week.  If Gus hasn't napped well in the day (i.e morning and lunch, I usually cancel what I was doing so he can have a nap).  I always try to have Gus napping at home if I possibly can - 99.9999% of the time his naps are at home and I almost NEVER wake him so we can go out (I think yesterday afternoon is pretty much the only time).  I do an exercise class 3 mornings per week in a park - it's for mothers and babies - I am the only one who doesn't take my baby with me because I want him to have his nap in his crib.  I organise a sitter for these mornings so he can nap at home.  I put him down, then go out.  I am here with him all the other mornings.  On the other mornings, if I go out, he obviously comes with me and we ALWAYS go after his nap (I even tell people that I will call them when he wakes up and will come then).  I can honestly say that I am doing everything (probably more than I should!) to get him napping at home as I know that's probably the best thing for him (but not necessarily my toddler as he's often kept home in the afternoon so Gus can nap!)  Part of me says, with a second child, I should just "go with the flow" a bit more and that the second child should just have to adapt a bit, but to be honest, if Gus has had a nap in the morning and one at lunchtime (my toddler naps at lunchtime from about 1.15-3.30pm everyday), then it doesn't necessarily restrict us that much.  The main problem is if he hasn't napped well.  My idea situation (to enable to us to get out with toddler in afternoons) is if Gus has a 45min-1hr nap in the morning and about 1.5-2hrs at lunchtime) which will hopefully last him until bedtime.  Sorry if I sound a bit defensive, but I really do EVERYTHING I can to make sure Gus naps at home so he won't get OT - his naps come first so I can get decent sleep myself so I can be as well rested (and happy!) Mummy for my boys!

Anyway, today was actually pretty good but I wouldn't say it was the norm.  We got a good lunchtime nap but the day wasn't ideal because of that short morning nap.

Today:
E 5.25am (1 side)
Put back to sleep
A 6.20am
E 6.45/7.00/7.15 (took a while to get him to take a full feed)
E 7.50am Solids
S 9.30am (he was tired by then)
A 9.50 am (20 min nap?! - great!)
E 10.30am (took 3 ounces from a cup from my sitter)
E 11.20am took BF from me as hadn't had a good feed at 10,30am
E 12.00pm (solids)
S 12.10pm
A 1.55pm
E 2.30pm (BF)
E 5.10pm Solids
E 6.05pm BF
Fell asleep while feeding - I finished feeding at about 6.25pm.

So, my new plan is:

1) 1st nap - try 3hrs 15 mins A time (turn baby monitor up to full volume so we can hear him wake in the morning!)
2) 2nd nap - if get less than 1hr 1st nap do 3hrs 15 min A time.  If get 1hr + do 3hrs 30 min A time.
3) Night wakings - do not feed if less than 4hr interval from last feed at night (as long as he had good bedtime feed).

Anything else?

Thank you for your help  - I really do appreciate it.

[lilac83]

Hi,

I think your plan looks pretty good. That second nap was excellent today, 1h 45m, good job Gus (and mom)! You may just want to keep that A time in the back of your mind (2h 20m) in case he pulls anymore of those super short naps. Then he was awake for 4 hours before bed. How was he during that time? Was he able to stay happy? Have you noticed before that his A times get much longer as the day goes on?

That first nap time may always be somewhat of a guess for you. In that case, having a plan to handle both a short nap and a long nap (like you do) is an excellent idea. You said ideally you would like a shorter nap here in order to get a longer nap after lunch. If this is the case, you could always stay with the first A time of 3 hours (a short UT nap is always better than a short OT nap) and then see if you could stretch that second A time until sometime after lunch when your toddler is sleeping.

Example:
wake - 6:00
nap 1 - 9:00 (45m - 1h)
nap 2 - 1:15 (hopefully 1.5 - 2h)
bed - 6:00/6:30

This is basically the same as your plan, just keeping the shorter first A time to guarantee a UT nap vs trying to stretch him and getting an OT nap.

Let me know what you think.

[Tobysmum]

Hi,

The long A time before bed was OK - he had started to get a little bit fussy after he'd had his solids at 5.15pm - I did try for a quick 20 min catnap but he wasn't having any of it that's why I went for the early bedtime instead.  He was OK though with it I think.  I guess we'll see by the NWs tonight!

Oh yes, will keep that A time firmly planted in my log for short naps.  Although, it is extremely rare to get a 20 min first nap (in fact, I can't really remember ever having one!)  - saying that, I have a feeling that it was the clocks changing that made him need a much shorter A time after that first short nap. 

I'll be honest in saying that the first morning nap being 40 mins isn't that much of a problem for me.  Realistically, I don't know if we will ever get a longer nap than that anyway.  The problem comes when he has a short first nap and then a short 2nd nap and then we need the catnap (which he doesn't like!)  That 6am wake up though could be a problem - I really don't want to get up that early if I am totally honest and nor does DH!  I am not sure though if I can have both the nice long lunchtime nap with my toddler AND the 6.30 wake-up!  An ideal wake-up would be 6.45 wake up, 6.45pm asleep - but I know that I can't plan that bit!!! 

Thinking out loud - would this work?  I am not planning on doing set times of course, just wondering if the timings would work if the day was to go like this:

A 6.15/6.30
Nap # 9.30 (3hrs -3hrs 15 A time) usually 30- 45 min nap (never does an hour nap here and certainly won't on 3hrs A time it appears!)
A 10.00/10.15am
Nap #1.15/1.30 (3hrs 15 min A time) 1hr - 1hr 45 min nap (toddler doesn't wake until 3/3.30pm usually so have until then to get a nap in)
A Anytime between 2.30-3.15pm)
Sleep 6.30

I guess something like that would work?  I am just looking at the length of naps I've been getting - and I don't know if I'll ever get a 2hr afternoon nap!  Generally, he seems to manage (even in previous months) on about 2.5 hrs sleep per day.  If we can avoid having to do that catnap that would be great - I find it a really awkward time when he wakes at say 1.55pm today - and still have a long time until bedtime but not really enough time for a catnap.

That said, I think I am going to try a 3hr 15 min A time and see what happens - even if we got an hour first nap and then 1.5 hrs at lunchtime that would work.  I consistently get an UT nap (i.e 30-40 mins) with set nap time of 9.15am or 3hrs A time) - so would be interesting to see what happens at 3hrs 15 mins.  If obviously OT then I won't do it.

Kind of thinking out loud - sorry.  Aiming for 45min-1hr 1st nap and 1.5-1.75 second nap most likely.

Let's hope he wakes up a bit later tomorrow (i.e. 6.15am/6.30ish - rather than his pre-clock change time!

[eclaire]

Just to let you know that I've been following along as my LO who's 8 months now sounds so similar to yours.  Shorter am nap, longer pm nap and hates catnaps.  He is also waking up still 1-3 times a night.  Usually goes back to sleep with a couple of minutes of sh/pat then I leave the room before he's asleep, this is if before 2am.  After 2 he either takes over an hour to go back to sleep or I need to nurse him...so I've started to just go and nurse him then put him down awake if it's after 2.  He started to wake up for the day at 5 with the time change.  Then today he woke up at 6, I nursed him and he seemed still tired so I put him back down and he slept from 6:30-8am.

Anyways, just to let you know that I'm finding the thread helpful!

[lilac83]

How are things going for you today?

[Tobysmum]

Glad Eclare is finding this useful!

Hi Lilac83 - thanks for checking in - I had just written my post when it warned me that another post had been done whilst I was writing!!!

Just to update on last night and today (as I think we've already got our fill of naps today !)

Last night woke at 12.30am (last fed at 6.10pm) so that was over 5 hrs.
Woke at 5.45am for the day - fed and tried to put him back to sleep but he wasn't having it.

A & E 5.45am
E 6.15 (as had originally only given 1 side at 5.45am)
E 7.50am Solids
E 9.00 - gave a quick top up before his nap as he'd eaten pretty early - just in case he had a longer nap!
S 9.05am (which was 3hrs 20 min A time as he went straight to sleep)
A 9.40am (35 min nap)
E 10.30 BF
E 11.30 ? solids
E 12.40 - gave him a quick top up before his nap so he wouldn't wake hungry.
S 12.44 - he fell asleep while I was giving him his top up - very tired.  (3hrs 4 mins A time.)
A 1.55pm (1hr 10 min nap)
E 2.00pm BF

So, awake again at 1.55pm (exactly the same as yesterday - to the minute!)

I guess if we are unable to get a catnap in (which we may be able to if he falls asleep later on the way back from a playdate with my toddler), we'll have to do an early bed again.

My concern is that he woke up pretty early this morning - but admittedly he had over 11hrs sleep.  If our bedtime continues to be early due to him waking up from that nap so early in the afternoon, then we are probably going to get early mornings as he is doing 11-12 hours at night as it is.  Do you see what I mean?  How can I move things forward a bit without him getting OT.  Really don't want to start our day any earlier than 6.15am if at all possible (we didn't start that early pre-clock change).

Any other comments about today or yesterday's EASY (and yesterdays post)?  As you saw today, we still didn't get any joy with that first nap - woke happy yet again (and woke happy yesterday after that 20 min nap - which I guess is nice but doesn't help with telling me what the problem is!!)

Thanks yet again!

[lilac83]

If you can squeeze in another catnap today and go with the later bedtime, I wonder if he'll start waking later again. He woke 15 minutes later today than the last few days, so he's starting to get back on track. Those 35 minute naps confuse me since, with my LO anyway, they could mean OT or UT and the only way to judge is by her mood. How was his mood until the next nap? Perhaps tomorrow try to stay at 3h 10m to 3h 15m, even though he only fell asleep about 5 minutes past that today I wonder how big a difference those 5 minutes make.

Hopefully tomorrow he'll sleep 45 minutes to an hour so you can try out the 3h 30m A time for his second nap!

[deckchariot]

I think your plan looks really good - for increasing that first A time to 3 hr 15.  You're right though, you may never get a long nap with that one.  The good news is that will make the 2 to 1 switch much easier for you   But you've got some time before then, so if we can get a few more minutes in the am for you, everyone wins!

I'm guessing OT for that first nap - super early wake up, and the new extended A time.  Robin is right that you can offer a catnap in the hopes of then doing a later bedtime.  I'd try that first - that way if he sleeps a bit, he won't be so OT at bedtime, which will hopefully lead to better night sleep, and you can put him down later which will hopefully lead to later wake up in the am.  If you're finding that doesn't work (I'd keep that plan for a few days,) and you're not getting later wake ups or he refuses the catnap, then you can try to establish his routine first ( 3hrs 15 min A time and the rest of your day plan), then start moving his whole day 15 min (if he's not crying in his crib, leave him 15 min longer than you usually would, put him down 15 min later for each nap and bedtime) and usually you can shift the day that way, provided he's getting his "total" day sleep needs in.   Btw - great job figuring out that 2.5 hrs is about where he needs to be - that can really help you in planning the day based on how his naps go!!

[Tobysmum]

Well, no luck again with getting a catnap in.  He just refuses it and cries.  So we opted for the early bedtime again today.  We had a busy day today with a playdate morning (that's probably why he needed less A time after that first nap as was more stimulated than usual) and afternoon, so he was totally wiped tonight.  We were at the playdate from about 3.30-5.30am - I tried the catnap in my sling (used to work) and also my friend's crib which I didn't really expect to work anyway.  Got home, bathed, fed at 6.10pm (fell asleep feeding again) - in bed for 6.30pm.  Glad we managed to get the early bedtime but I fear another early wake up tomorow am because of this.  Not taking that catnap doesn't really leave me any alternative than to put him to bed super early does it?  If only I could get a longer nap in the morning, that would push nap #2 later and we wouldn't need a catnap most probably.

Plan tomorrow -  will try and have him asleep at 3hr 10/15 min A time from wake-up for nap #1 and see if results on OT again.  This will be day 2 of that A time.  Try again for catnap if awake around 2/2.30pm or earlier again.

LILAC83 - you said " those 35 minute naps confuse me since, with my LO anyway, they could mean OT or UT and the only way to judge is by her mood. How was his mood until the next nap?"
"Generally" he wakes up happy from all his naps (unless he's chronically OT, from no naps at all in the day, then he probably would wake crying).  9 times out of 10 he wakes happy from nap #1 whatever the length (even the 20 min one a couple of days ago!)  If he wakes crying, it's often because he's hungry - that's the usual reason I think.  His mood today after his short first nap was fine - perhaps very slightly fussy but not obviously OT.  He did start to get a bit more fussy before I put him down - that's why I thought he was ready for his nap.  I do notice a difference for sure when he has a decent lunchtime nap i.e. yesterday after 1hr 45 min nap, he was just beaming with happiness when I went into get him!  Whereas today, after a 1hr 10 min nap, he wasn't as happy.

What will tonight bring?!  I must go to bed a bit earlier myself as these early wake-ups are starting to make me OT - wahhhhhhhh!

[deckchariot]

EWs are yucky!!!  Do try to go to bed early!!!

You are very fortunate that he usually wakes happy!  That may also mean that the morning nap will just be a bit short.  Give the longer A time a few more days and see if it makes a difference.  If not, then maybe you can re-work your plan to just count on a short am nap.

Here's to hoping for a good night!!!

[Tobysmum]

Checking in.....
Last night we had NW at 11.20pm (fed both sides) and 4.45am (fed one side and he went back to sleep!)  Very pleased he went back to sleep at that 4.45am waking  - yay!

A 6.30am (I estimate but we didn't hear him until 6.40 when he started to fuss)
E 6.50am(BF 1 side)
E 7.50am (solids)
E 9.00am BF top up before nap
S 9.30am (put down at 9.30 - went straight to sleep - 3hrs A time - was aiming for 3hrs 15 mins but fell asleep too quickly!
A 10.05 am (35 min nap)
E 10.45am BF
E 12.00pm Solids
E 1.15pm BF top up as didn't want him to wake hungry in nap.  Fell asleep feeding (I had put him down at 1.08 but remembered that I hadn't fed him so had to go back and feed!!!
S 1.25pm (after 1hr 20 min A time)
A 2.40pm (1hr 15 min nap)

Despite his naps still being short today, at least we got to 2.40pm (usually 2pm).  That said, he'll probably still need an early night (if won't take cat nap) as he has only had total of 1hr 50 min worth of naps all day!  That's not enough really is it?

Shall I try for a catnap - I guess so as 1hr 50 mins is so little sleep!  If not, I guess it's another super early bedtime.

If I do a catnap I have no idea when to put him down - if I did 5.40pm that's so late even though only 3hrs A time.

WHY won't he nap longer?! 
S

[Ellie-Leo]

Hi Tobysmum

Just to say that I've also been following your progress as we have had several attacks of only 30 min naps regardless of A times. I just wanted to agree that the short morning nap and long lunchtime nap may suit Gus better - have you read Gina Ford? I think she has little to offer in the way of tips and techniques, but her sleep pattern suited my LO far better, simply because I could never get a long morning nap, but had more success with the lunch time one. I know you have a toddler too (your avatar is gorgeous btw), but could you tend to squeeze in a cat nap by going for walk on the days he needs them?

Anyway, just thinking out loud but wanted to say dont feel bad if the EASY is matching up to the ideal!

Hope tomorrow goes well, fingers crossed for me as well as today was a set back!

Ellie x

[lilac83]

Last night looks good! And I see he slept in to the new 6:30, yay!

If you get him down at 5:40 I would wake after 20 minutes, so about 6:00. It may even be better if you try getting him down closer to 5:30 and then wake after 20 minutes, just to bridge that gap so he doesn't go OT.

Again, he was probably UT for that nap this morning. At least his second nap is beginning to be consistently over an hour. I think we're headed in the right direction. I wonder if we're almost being to cautious with his A times and he's ready for more?