How can I get her on a routine, without risking OT?

[lesorl]

So 22 months later, we're still trying to find a routine.  Her sleep is more independent (no more rocking, but still in the room when she falls asleep), but for every day that's good, we take 2 steps back.  Her naps have never been long (1 hour 15 mins is typical), which makes bedtime early.

Here's yesterday:

6:02am Awake
11:45am-1:10pm Nap
5:55pm bedtime, but not asleep until 7:15pm

Last night bedtime was the issue, as she woke today at 5:30am.  She's extremely sensitive to OT, so her nap will be about 11am, and another early bedtime tonight.

Any thoughts on lengthening her nap?  Do I need to set a bedtime (5:30pm for now) in order to regulate her body rhythm?

I'm sooo tired of not being able to plan days since I never know when she'll wake or how long she'll sleep!

[becky1969]

Hugs! I know how a long stretch of NWs/EWs can just drain the life out of you.  We'll get this worked out, 'k?

Alright, to me it looks like your short naps are because, as you say, she's sensitive to being OT.  So her A time is too long in the AM.  An 11:45 nap after a 6 am waking is 5h45 A time, which is super long at this age.  I think I'd be inclined to try closer to 4h45 (for putting her in bed) so that she's hopefully asleep by 5 h A time.  Yes, that's a 10:45 nap, but if she sleeps for 2 hours that gets you to 12:45/1.  Then you go for 5 hours of A time in the afternoon.  With 2 whole hours of nap under her belt instead of 1h15, that should be doable. And then hopefully a 12 hour night to get you back to 6.  After a few days of longer naps, then we can try stretching her in the PM so that bedtime gets a little later, which hopefully will make waking a little later, and nap a little later.  Also, once you get her out of her OT cycle, then she should be more capable of stretching A time.

Is it possible she's teething too? That can sometimes make it harder for them to handle longer A times. 

Now, the fact that she's never taken a long nap may just mean she's not a long napper. Or, it could be that because she's sensitive to being OT it means her A time has just always been longer than she can handle.  Let's experiment with an earlier nap and see where that gets us.  If that doesn't work, we can come up with a different strategy.  Just to give you some encouragement, I've seen a lot of toddlers enter a new A time phase somewhere in the 24-28 month area, so this may just be a problem until she can handle more A time. 

[lesorl]

Becky-

I must tell you that your support and assurance are inspiring... it gives me hope!

Today she woke at 5:30am, asleep 11:10am-12:30pm (surprising b/c we had painters here making a ton of noise), and now aiming for a 5:20pm bedtime.  She is a textbook case of early to bed, later to rise.

I am skeptical that she'll sleep for 2 hours.

I *think* she's getting her 2 year molars, so it's on and off for meds.

Tomorrow I'll aim for 5 hours A time in the morning, and stick to it for a few days.

**Crossing my fingers this will work**

Leslie

[jcsmom]

I second what Becky said. If I nap my DS after 5-5.25 hours A we get a much longer nap. Any later and we get 45 mins-1.25 hours. Try it for a few days, it worked for us the first time we tried. Like your DD my DS is a short napper. We rarely get 2 hour naps but with a shorter A time we at least get 1.5-1.75 hours. (((HUGS))).

[skatty]

Hi Leslie, it is unbelievable but Leorah suddenly hit about 23 months and we said goodbye to the 1hr15 nap and she now naps between 1½-2 hours everyday, it's like Becky said she just hit a new phase and has 5½ hours A time before nap but if I have to push it to 6 there is no effect on her nap. Maybe around 2 M's sleep needs will change too and she may be able to handle more A time, my friend has a 23 month old and is struggling at the mo' as well, I think most hit a tricky period somewhere around 20-24 months, ours was nap refusal, that was horrific!! I know you have had a real hard time with sleep but just from what I read on these boards it does seem like 2 year olds can handle OT much better than younger LOs, I am shocked a the change in Leorah and her sensitivity, I still watch bedtime but having a more flexible morning is wonderful. Sending lots of (((hugs))) and sleep vibes to ya 

[lesorl]

Grrrrrr- it took an hour to get her to sleep last night, so 6:20pm bedtime.  That resulted in a 5:04am wakeup, though I *think* she may have drifted again til 5:30am.  Today we have a class and won't get back home til 10:30am, so the earliest she'll get to sleep is 11am.

One question on GW- when M is talking to me, should I be responding, or just ignoring her? 

Tonight I'll move bedtime back to 5pm, in hopes that she'll be asleep earlier.

[becky1969]

With GW you don't interact with them. You are just a presence in the room.  You can start with a phrase, of course, at the beginning (like 'It's time to go to sleep, honey. Mama's here."), but after that you want to avoid interacting or even eye contact.  Keep yourself as quiet and still as you can.

[SupermansMama]

i havent been on this site in a while but when i did i often complained of short naps and EWs.  This has been going on since our DS first started on EASY about a year ago and its still not working.  We go thru spurts of him waking decently at 7am but then he always goes back to around 6, sometimes before after DST and other, i guess, OT events.

Right now we're always shooting for a 7am wake up but the last few days have been before 6. I usually go in and tuck him back in, sometimes he falls back to sleep but often he just tries (quiets for 15min) then is awake for the day. 
We have naptime at noon and it was 1.5 from when we switched from 2-1 nap per day (only about a month ago) and now today it was 45min only!  He was going to bed at 7 after a 1.5 nap but with a 45min nap day, i assume 6.30 will most likely be the picture tonight.

I know it sounds like he doesnt get enough sleep but earlier bedtime then 6.30 will just result in earlier morning wake ups and more naps per day results in backtracking does it not?

I was hoping everything would straighten out after the incisors came in a month ago but it hasnt.  so he has everything but his 2 yr molars and i've caught him gnawing on his hands already...does this mean we're just into teething again??

I noticed that jcsmom is also in Toronto, we're just north, i wonder if its the air around here?? haha

[becky1969]

supermans mama -- I suspect when those incisors came in he got extra tired, and so wasn't able to make it until your normal naptime. Thus, he got OT and was short-napping.  Moving nap earlier by 30 minutes would have lengthened nap out probably and gotten you within range of normal bedtime.

the incisors are crazy -- a lot of moms still see teething signs after those dudes are in.  I don't know why we see delayed reactions with those teeth, just that we do.  It's absolutely possible that the molars are coming in, but I suspect it's just more incisor action making him teethy-like.

I'd move nap back by 30-45 minutes and see if that improves anything.  If it doesn't, you can just go back to your regular routine and wait for teething to be over and him to be ready to move into his old A time slot.  We had the same problem at that age and an earlier nap time did the trick!

[lesorl]

OK so nap today was (again) 1 hour 20 mins, awake at 12:20pm.  And aimed for 5pm bedtime, but didn't fall asleep til 5:55pm.  Boo.

If she wakes at 5am tomorrow, do I give her a nap at 10am?  The thought of a short nap + long afternoon is frightening.

[jcsmom]

Supermansmom- we are just north of Toronto too. Hmm must be the air! Where are you?The"I" teeth killed us and now we are getting the 2 year molars and we are back to where we were 3 months ago. Short naps, EWs etc, etc. I have just come to accept it as the norm!

lesorl-you are braver than I with the 5pm bedtime. I think it was the right choice though. Do you think now that she is older she maybe needs a wee bit less sleep? Have you tried to log it lately? I logged my DS for 2 weeks when sleep was good (yup, it was good for 2 weeks!) and I was surprised that he got less than I thought he was. Just keep going with the early nap. IUt make take her a few days to feel rested. FWIW, we had a 1 hour 15 min nap today. Ugh, hate those! Hang in there.

[abaker89]

I had a couple thoughts, no idea if they would be useful but here goes.  First, my gal is 18 mths and only takes 75 min naps.  I have tried earlier and later nap times and never get any results, we rarely get a 2 hr one.  I am assuming that she is getting enough since she is active and happy all day, she is also happy when she wakes up.  So your lo may just be a short napper who can't quite fill the schedule with EW. 

Second, with the EW, have you tried not going in at all?  That is the only thing that I can think of that we did/do.  We just don't get her until we think its the right time.  This does two things, it makes her know on some level that it is not time to get up and it resets her hunger alarm so that she is not used to eating till the designated time.  Now, she doesn't cry or we probably wouldn't do this so I don't know if that will help.  She used to kind of talk/play and now she just sleeps.  Last week with the time change, we did this and after a few days of being in there for almost an hour, she just started sleeper later.  I don't know if we are just lucky or if it was what we did.

The only other thing I could think was to be sure you have her room dark (hers is like a cae, lol!), white noise, and make sure the house is quiet till the wakeup time.  HTH!

Aileen

[lesorl]

Not a bad night, with 1 step backward*

5:55pm Asleep
11:35pm Few cries, B2S at 11:55am
4:50am-5:56am Few cries every 10/20 mins
5:56am-6:36am B2S* (DH rocked her here)

So the DH rocking her wasn't ideal, but it did give her an extra 40 mins, so naptime can be at 11:30am today, which should help bedtime too.  I'm pretty sure I can undo the rocking quickly.  She also needs less intervention when she's not so OT.

jcsmom- she's always done well with an early bedtime, sleeping sometimes >13 hours.  And last night I figured if she woke at 5am, she'd at least have slept 12 hours.  She does best with 13 hours or more, but lately it's less than 12 (thus the OT cycle).

Aileen- she really does need more sleep than 75 mins.  That's generally how the NWs and EWs continue.  And with the EW, she just gets louder and more upset if we leave her.  Then there's no way she's going B2S.  Her room is dark also.

[lesorl]

So, she napped from 11:40am-12:40pm, 1 hour.  That was after 5 hours 4 mins A time... she was sleeping longer when her A time was closer to 6 hours.

Does she need more than 5 hours A time, but less than 5 hours 40 mins A time?  Or should I keep putting her down a few days after 5 hours A time?

[abaker89]

Abby is a bit younger at 18 mths but we have a short A time still of no longer than 4 hr 50 min and usually closer to 4 hr 30 min.  Maybe 5 hrs is still too long?  Becky had suggested 4 hr 45 min so maybe try that.  Her longer stretch is in the evening usually 5-6 hrs, it has always been that way tho.  I didn't mean that she would always fall back asleep if we don't get her but after a few days she seemed to get the message and not wake up early anymore.  Maybe you could try waiting as long as you feel comfortable and then stall some to feed her.  Its just an idea and its the only thing that we did that maybe helped us.  Who knows, she might have just done it anyway!