15 month old with nap issues?

[Evilmena]

I have an almost 15 month old that is still napping twice...if you can call it napping!

His night sleep is great, goes down anywhere from 6-7pm and wakes up the same time in the am.  Rarely any wakeups, can self soothe, no props whatsoever.  So what's the problem?  His napping and A times have always been all over the place.  Around the one year mark he needed to go down for his first nap after 1.5hrs. of being up (up to 3 hours for his second nap) and then he began talking in his crib for up to an hour so we extended the A time.  Now he generally falls asleep within 20 minutes or so (he's silent for the first ten with his lovey, then chats for a bit before going quiet.  But he only sleeps for 30 minutes - sometimes 20, sometimes 45 and there's no rhyme or reason to it.  We would love to have two solid at least 1 hour naps, or 1 2hour or so nap but these two 30 min. naps are brutal.  It doesn't seem to affect his nightsleep but it does at times affect his morning wakeup time.  At times if he wakes at 6am he'll fuss and then chat for a bit and fall asleep for another 30min. until waking up for good.

Here's the general schedule:

7am wakeup
10am nap (will go in at 9:30am)
10:30am wake
1pm nap (will go in at 12:30pm) * I put him down earlier if the nap was only 30min. *
1:30pm wakeup
6pm sleep

He also goes down at night fairly quickly with no fuss.  Could he really be okay on only 1 hour total nap time during the day?  I've worked so hard to protect his sleep in the last year that I don't want it to be for nothing - sleep is really important to me.  If this is okay then I guess we go with it??  He was doing two one hour naps consistently before this started.  I just don't know what to do - extend the A times?  Shorten naps if they are longer?  They're never longer than 1 hour and 10min.  HELP!!
I put him down today at 12:45pm and it's 1:30pm and he's still chatting!!  Then he'll probably only sleep for another 30 minutes...ugggh.

[Colin Macs Mom]

bumping up for you 

[becky1969]

I think your A times are waaaaaay too short.  You're only giving him 2.5 hours in the morning (and then he's chatting until 3 hours).  At his age, he should be doing over 4 hours, perhaps as much as 5! Even a sleepy bub (and I've got one of those!) would be doing at *least* 3.5 hours.  So definitely let's extend that A time, both before and after nap.

Since he's already extending himself by 30 minutes, why don't you go along with that!    If he still chats for 20-30 minutes, then we'll extend 15 minutes every 2 days until he's falling asleep easily.

Now, at 15 months he's probably closing in on the 1 nap day.  He should be getting 2-2.5 hours of daytime sleep.  That's fabulous he's STTN, so it doesn't seem to be hurnting him much.  But I have a feeling you will run into some personality issues in a few months if he doesn't get more sleep.  18 months is when the evil can come out of 'em, so we want him well rested to the naughties are kept under control! 

What we usually do as we approach 1 nap territory is limit the AM nap to 45 minutes max to ensure that a 1.5-2 hour nap is taken in the PM.  When PM nap starts shortening to an hour or less then we shorten that AM nap to 30 minutes; as you increase A time, morning nap will move later in the day.  Once AM nap is around 11:30 AM, you can usually jump to 1 nap at 12 pm.  From then on you just work on keeping them happy on that 1 nap! 


Make sense?  What I'm saying is:

1) Increase A time.  Try starting wind down at 10 am to start, and move 15 minutes every 2 days if nap continues to be short and/or he has difficulty falling asleep

2) Increase A time after nap as well, so that you go in at 1 pm; move by 15 minutes every 2 days if nap continues to be short and/or he has difficulty falling asleep.

The interesting thing is he *is* doing 4.5 hours after PM nap! So he can clearly handle it! I think you've probably got a textbook/angel guy who just shows sleepy signs at the usual A time so that you've just held him there long after it has outlived it's usefulness.  You've kind of got him ont he schedule of a 6-7 month old! 


Make sense?

[Evilmena]

Thanks for the info, I know he's on a schedule that is for younger babes but when I came on here months ago because of short naps I was told that he might just need a shorter A time for the AM and seeing as he'd get increasingly fussy, I just played it by ear.  I know he *should* be doing at least 4 hours and know that he can he's just always needed to sleep on a shorter AM A time - I also know this is probably what's causing our problems!

As for wind down - my kid doesn't do wind downs...I wish he did, sigh.  But then again, we're not doing crazy stimulating either all the time.  Maybe the trick is to get him out of the house in that morning A time (as stimulus) and then coming back and that will be a sort of wind down, and keep it low key?  Trust me - he's not angel/textbook!  ; )  He's actually more spirited/textbook.  He will not sit still...EVER!  Not cuddly or patient either!

So if I start wind down at 10am and every 2 days increase A time by 15 minutes, how is going in at 1pm a long enough A time?  Say for example he'll sleep 30 minutes at 10am - that means his next A time is 2.5 - maybe 3 hours until his next nap?  Is that right?  I really want to extend the A time so that I can get him to 1 nap, I definitely think he's ready for it - the short naps are telling me that's the case.  He's also been really ill the past week so now that he's on the mend I'll work on the extending - he was sleeping a lot more because of the bug he caught.  And then when his 1st nap ends up at 11:30am I can just eliminate the 2nd?   I'm just a bit confused if I'm increasing the first A, when and how far that will put the 2nd nap.  Does this mean for a while his bedtimes will be later or the same?

Thank you so much for the advice, I kind of knew what I had to do but wasn't sure where to start.  Praying so much for the one nap so that he can rest and my mom can have a semblance of a routine too!  And sorry if it's all over the place, guess I'm pretty spirited too!   

[becky1969]

OK, let's work on this!

First off, wind downs.  When you say he doesn't 'do' wind downs, I suspect you mean something like cuddling in the rocker.  That's OK -- a wind down doesn't have to be snuggly and quiet.  A wind down is really just a cue to your child that a sleep period is coming.  At our house? Wind down starts with jumping off the couch 5 times and then daddy throwing LO in the air 5 times.    That's what floats my kids boat, but it is HIS signal that a sleep period is coming.  He calms down IMMENSELY after those jumps because we've done it long enough that he knows here comes a sleep period!

Really, just make sure you have some kind of ritual before sleep -- some way of saying 'play time is over.  let's get relaxed and ready for sleep.'  That may mean you walk around the house and say 'night-night' to familiar/favorite objects.  It may mean you look out the window and tell the world night-night.  It may mean you just sing a couple of songs while walking, jumping, etc.  Whatever.  If he doesn't want to sit in your lap for a story, that's OK! Let him roam around the room while you sit and read.  Don't worry, he's listening! And if he's not into cuddling you might make sure that the last story you read is ALWAYS the same one and ALWAYS is one that talks about going to sleep.  We don't need his body to be still, we just need him to shift gears.   Spirited children especially really need those markers to help them shift gears.  They are always on GO so it is important to give them plenty of time to know that they are changing direction.  Make sense?


If you're spirited too it may be hard for you to institute a ritual before sleep periods.  The spirited adults I know tend to be pretty spontaneous and not too fond of being bound to any sort of a routine.  But let me tell you, having a sleep ritual is essential for children.  They can't tell time, so it's the only way they have to predict what comes next.  Even fly-by-your-seat Spirited kids feel insecure in a world where they have no clue what's happening next! So coming up with a wind down ritual that works for your kid can be very very helpful! And you'll be surprised at how LO will visibly relax when you start the ritual after you do it for a month or so.  It's really amazing; a good ritual can do 50% or more of the work necessary to get a child to sleep!

Now for nap timing: it's very possible you needed to shorten A time to get out of an OT sleep cycle.  That's my favorite solution for sure! But once he got out of the OT cycle he may have been ready to stretch again, plus LOs this age increase A time about every 4-6 weeks.  So enough time may have passed that it's time to increase.  But let's do it slowly so you don't get into another OT cycle.

The reason that I kept your nap at 1 pm initially is because I'm gonig on the assumption you're still going to get a short nap.  With only 30 minutes of sleep under his belt, he's just not going to be able to handle a full 4 hours.  Try 3 hours first.  If that doesn't work, increase the space between the 2 naps until you get to where that PM nap is a nice length.

What typically happens during the 2-1 switch is that AM nap is kept short (30-45 minutes) in order to preserve the length of the PM nap; at this age, they can really start to lose the ability to sleep in the PM if they sleep more than 45 minutes in the morning.  So, you end up with a consistently short AM nap.  That means they just aren't going to be able to handle really long A times so the PM nap doesn't change too much in timing -- maybe it will shift by 30-60 minutes or so.  Yes, bedtime may become later briefly, but then once you go to 1 nap consistently bedtime will become earlier.  You're probably going to see your bedtime move around a bit over the next 6 months, and then it will stay in one place for 6-12 months.


the main thing to remember during the 2-1 switch is to honor your child's A time.  IN other words, don't worry about the clock -- just pay attention to what A time works for your kid and make sure that is how you time naps and bedtiem.  That will be your best insurance against OT. 



Does this help?

[Evilmena]

Thank you, it does help for sure.

I do have a ritual - it's actually more words than anything else so he knows when it's time to sleep.  Same for night time - we do say good night to pictures in his room and I tell him we're going to see Teddy Bear (his lovey) and ask him to point to where he is as we're going up the stairs.  So I think those are his cues I guess I just never associated it with a 'wind down' because my child isn't the cuddle wind down type.

We are in the process of stretching his A times - my mom is at home with him so I'm telling her when to put him down.  He's been going down relatively quickly lately and sleeping about 45 min. for both naps it seems or one of them is 1/2 hour.  Also, his second A time ia at times 2.5 hours, but I'm pushing mom to do 3 hours because I know he can handle it.  So when we get to 11am (we're currently at 10/10:30am depending on when he wakes) do we do that for a couple of days and then just JUMP to 12pm or continue to stretch??  He's been pretty good at bedtime as well although that was never really an issue.

Thanks again for your help!

[becky1969]

I'd probably just continue to stretch slowly.  If you decide to try a jump, you certainly can! But don't be frustrated if it doesn't work.  I've jumped my son as much as an hour before and it went OK.  You know your child's temperment/sleep personality best.

[Evilmena]

I'll continue to stretch.  I've also been trying not to put him to bed a little later (around 7pm - I know, but that's later for him!) as his pm nap occurs later in the day.  Today he awoke at 6:45am so I told mom to put him down at 9:30am (our first day at the additional 15 minute stretch).  She said it took him 1/2 hour to go down and then he slept for 1/2 hour.  Very strange - was it too early?  But he hasn't gone longer in ages.  Then I told her to put him down 3 hours later (he had already done it yesterday with no problems).  He slept for 20 minutes...perhaps it was too long an A time due to the 30 min. nap?  I know I won't see instant results it just feels like we've been playing this 30min. game for ever now!  I truly do hope when it goes to just one nap he will actually sleep longer than 1 hour...heck even longer than 1/2 hour!  lol

[becky1969]

Yes, 9:30 was probably way too early.  He should be able to last a good 4 hours at this age.  So, if 6:45 was when he woke he probably wouldn't have been ready for nap until 10:45 (wind down at 10:30).

2nd nap, yes probably extra tired due to 30 minute nap.  Concentrate for now on getting that first nap timed right and then I think the rest will fall into place.

[Evilmena]

Well, the first nap we put him down at 2hours 45min. because we're in the process of stretching out slowly...he was doing 2.5 hours A time before so we're working from that.  I'll be home for the holiday for the next few days so I'm hoping to go to 3 and 3.25 hours.  I know he should be able to do the 4 hours at his age...but I fear making the jump and then getting stuck in a nasty OT cycle.  Is this the method I should follow?  Last night he went to bed at 5:45pm (due to the OT and short naps) and woke up at 6:45am (not too bad considering) then was silent until 7:15am when he started to talk again.  Hopefully we can resolve this soon!  As for his naps, I think he may have done 45 min. or so for morning and then she put him down 3 hours later and said he slept for 30min. then talked for another 30min? and then was quiet for another 15min. or so who knows - wish I had a video monitor!

[becky1969]

Heck yes, that's an awesome 13 hour night!  Can't expect much more than that!! As you get him stretched during the day, that bedtime will begin to be a more reasonable time and then you'll get post 7 am wake-ups.

Continue stretching slowly. It will come! I think you're right to not push too hard -- once you're in an OT cycle, it's hard to break.

[Evilmena]

Thanks!

So he was in bed at about 7pm last night...might have been a touch late due to his daytime sleep so he awoke at 6:15am...I must say he's been waking earlier though!

So I left him there until just after 7am and then put him back down at almost 9:30am...he went down almost instantly and he's still sleeping!!  It's almost 11am so I think I'll have to wake him.  He cried out briefly about 1/2 hour ago but he fell back asleep.  I think this nap shouldn't be longer than 45 min. usually to protect the pm nap - is that right?  I felt a little bad though as I do think he's gotten a bit OT the last couple of days.  So here's evidence he did 3 hours of A time and slept longer...strange how it works huh?  If I put him down sooner he probably would have done 1/2 hour...is that also a sign of UT (I usually associate it with OT).  Thanks for the encouragement!

[becky1969]

Yes, 30 minutes can be an UT nap.  Definitely at this age 2.5 hours of A time is WAY too short.

We shorten AM nap to preserve PM nap, but if dude is tired, it may not be necessary.  The only way you'll know is if you give him a long AM nap and find out that he refuses PM nap.  Then you'll know to shorten AM nap a bit.  But every kid is diff, so it's important to experiment a bit even if it means you'll get some whacked out days here and there!

At 15 months, even 3hours is a pretty short A time!  Esp. after a lovely 11-11.5 hour sleep the night before!  Like I said, as you stretch his A time during the day, that bedtime will get pushed later a bit which will give you later mornings again.

[Evilmena]

So I woke him after 1.5 hours of the AM nap and he was none too happy at first.  Then we had family over so major stimulation and I tried to put him down 3 hours later and no go - he was quiet but I doubt he slept.  I put him back in his room about an hour later again quiet but no sleep.  So now he's in bed at 7pm.  I wonder if I'd let him sleep longer in the AM if he would have gone down in the PM - I'll never know, also because of the stimulation.

That's right, longer AM nap is okay if child does it that way, that nap just eventually gets pushed to the middle if they don't drop that one on their own right?

We'll see how tonight goes.  And I'll continue the stretching for the rest of the weekend!

[becky1969]

Yeah, sounds like that day wasn't a good one for data collecting!    So, more experimentation necessary.

I would just let him sleep in the AM and see what happens.  And for the future, shortening to 1.5 hours isn't enough shortening.  We typically start at an hour, and then move to less from there (45, 30, 20, etc.).  So, start off with a full morning nap and see how he does in the PM.  Then, if he's refusing PM nap you'll limit to 1 hour in the AM and see how he does, and continue to shorten AM nap if nec.  You sound like you ahve a sleepy guy since he was on such short A times, so I have a feeling he'll be OK with a full AM and PM nap.  at least for another week or two!