Where do I begin?

[mokey_cat]

Hi Barbara - How is your LO doing?  Is she still having good naps at daycare?  DD is eventually over her tummy bug thank goodness.  10 poos a day is NOT fun  .  I was also worried about habitual waking while she was ill as it did seem to be at the same time each night and I also waited for her to cry.  She would usually fall back asleep quickly, so I would go in and have a sniff and she had pooed!!  How can they sleep with poo all up their back..... seriously!!!  So then I had to wake her to change her nappy but thankfully it does not seem to be a habit.

Is your LO crawling etc yet?  Im nervous about the sleep disruptions when it happens but I think it wont be too long   

Hope you ladies have a good night.

T - let us know how you are getting on 

X

[Barbaara]

Naps at daycare are pretty good, even though they put her down too early she still sleeps 1h30 or so.  If I do that at home, she gives me a 45 min nap.   

So glad Holly's feeling better.  Axelle never went back to sleep with poo all up her back though.

Axelle's not crawling yet or anything, but this morning she woke me up and I found her facing the wrong way on her tummy.    She's just wriggling at this stage. 

Good night!

xx

[TurboMum]

Hi ladies,

First of all, thanks sooo much for your kind support and great advice! It's being really helping - for sure!

We had a horrible night last night - DS woke at 7.50, 9.18, 10.30 (he stirred and went back to sleep himself but I thought just to mark it down for reference here), 11.00-12.30 (this was the hardest time because he kept waking when I try to lay him down - so yup I think I probably have really become his prop now due to the APOP which aimed to get him out of the OT cycle, so I had to take him to bed for a bit before 2.30 when he woke again and I BF), 2.30 (BF), 6.10 (EW but I treat it as NW anyway and co-slept with him till 7.08 when we started the day) - I know, so many APOPs!!! Oh gosh... you can see how desperate I am!

But today is pretty good I think!

Awake 7.08
E. 7.30
A.  (3hr10min)
S. 10.17-11.19 - 11.54 (DS woke up sitting at 11.19 but fairly easy to resettle)
E. 12.00
A.  (3hr20min)
S. 3.15-3.46   4.00-5.25 (woke 30min mark not sure if OT or UT as we had visitors just before his nap time and when he woke he seemed wanted to get up and play.. but overall he was calm so I managed to get him back to sleep again and had to wake him up at 5.25 cos didn't want his bedtime to be too late)
E. 5.30
A.
E. 7.45
S. 8.40 (aimed for 8pm but oh well... the lay-down-wake problem dragged it on a bit)


So I will see how tonight goes - if he keeps waking every hour or two like before, then I will almost definitely sure that I AM the prop and I will need to get rid of ME soon!  But if he sleeps better, then perhaps I'm not that quite a prop?

If I were to get rid of me as a prop, do you think I should start immediately or shall I wait for a few days for DS to catch up some sleep first? I think we are about to find his right A now so I think he might be able to take better naps soon... What do you think?

If I were to start leave him awake for his naps and night time, how long shall I leave him then? In other words, when shall I start to put him to bed? (Say if he does 3hr A and nap time is 10am, when shall I put him to bed? 9.45? 9.30? I worry if he is not tired enough and sleepy, he then wouldn't want to go to sleep anyway, would he? But if leave him too late say 9.50/9.55, then wouldn't he get OT because it'll probably take him AAAAGES to go to sleep or even might not go to sleep at all?  ) What would you reckon?

DH also asked a question: everytime DS wakes up at night, if we go in and get him quick enough he'll resettle pretty quickly cos he's still sleepy (but then of course he'll wake again later  ) but if we leave him too long (say wait for a few minutes) he'll usually wake up fully and it will take us another hour or so to get him back to sleep (and of course he'll wake later anyway) - and that's probably why we have gone into this pick-up thing. Do you think we should still leave him even if he'll wake up fully?

Think backwards, I think I have been following BW's shhpat/drowsy method quite well and DS used to fall asleep on his own that way but we never moved on to the lay-down-awake stage. Not because I don't wanna do it, but seems there is no specific way of telling us how to do it? Or am I missing something important in this site?

Sorry I have sooo many questions - please do not be overwhelmed!  Just let me know any thought you might have and that's fine! 


Laura - Holly's having poo all up her back? DS had that every single time when he poos but that was when he was on exclusive BF... his poo becomes more solid now since I introduced solids to him which is soo much nicer.... cos we used to have to bath him every time when he poos! I hope she'll sleep better now she's over her tummy bug! 

Oh BTW, I"ve got the monitor today! Yohoooo.... I can't wait to set it up tomorrow!  DS is now sitting pretty well and starting to crawl   ....I'm sure we'll have lots of fun soon! 

It's sooo hard not to go rushing in every time you here them making a sound.  For a while DD would wake up during the night and sometimes it took her up to 40 mins to start crying.   

I know! Tell me about it! When DH offered to help, he was stamping on the floor waiting soooo anxiously to go in when I tried to hold him back for a little... but then I couldn't hold for too long either... so oh well.... plus I haven't really figured out his sort of intermittent cries and real cries - they all sound soo anxious! Just making things even harder!

Sorry long post again....

Thank you both big time!!!

T xx

[mokey_cat]

Hi T - I am very impressed with the naps today  .  I know they were broken but the am one he didnt wake until 1 hour!!  Thats great!!  I would even said a 1 hour nap is a decent enough morning nap (although its better if its closer to 1.5hours but 1 hour is still pretty good).    The second nap could have been OT or overstimulation from the visitors.  That tends to happen to us as well.  But he still slept a good nap eventually!!

I would try and stick to the 3hr10mins tomorrow to see what happens.

If I were to get rid of me as a prop, do you think I should start immediately or shall I wait for a few days for DS to catch up some sleep first? I think we are about to find his right A now so I think he might be able to take better naps soon... What do you think?

Do you think he needs to catch up on sleep?  I would maybe have a few more days to try and see if these A times are going to give you decent naps, and you can build up the energy .  But I think maybe until we get rid of the prop (if you think it is a prop), he may still have these NW's.

I would maybe start putting him in the cot 20 mins before he is due to sleep - see how he gets on with that.  When getting rid of a prop, there is inevitably going to be some OT unfortunately  .  If you try not to worry too much to start with unless its gets really bad (like he is not sleeping at all for naps in 1 day).  There will be maybe a few days of OT but this should be solved when he is sleeping better - I promise!!

To answer your DH's question - which is one I had myself  - I know he is easier to settle if you get there quickly, but if you continue rushing in, you are taking away all his chances to settle himself and he will keep relying on you  .  Its soooo hard I know honey and I also used to rush in all the time but DD didnt learn to sleep without props until I left her EVERY time (I still had to go back a lot but it got less and less).  I hope that makes sense.

The way I taught independent sleep (after getting rid of the dummy as that was a simple pop in her mouth and she was off!!) was by shhpat.  So the 1st day I had to shhpat for 20mins or so until she was fully asleep, and each day I did it less so for example I would only do it until she closed her eyes.  I would stop patting and stay there for a few mins - if she woke I would pat again until eyes closed etc.  Then after a few days, I would shhpat until just calm - eyes kind of glazing over.  If she started crying, pat again until calm then stop, pat until calm, then stop.  If she would not go to sleep I would then shhpat until eyes closed but usually I only had to do it until calm.  After 2/3 weeks I was able to pat her a few times until calm then leave the room and she would fall asleep on her own!!  Im not sure if your LO is maybe too old for shhpat?  have you used it before?  Or can you calm him by another method (in the cot though) like a hand on his chest or rubbing his cheek - something that you can do less and less over time?

I know it is VERY difficult to leave him even for a few mins to cry.  I find it sooooo hard as well but it wont be for long.  Just until he can learn how to settle himself and then you shouldnt need to hear him cry at all   If you are sure he needs you , then go in but he may be trying to soothe himself so if you leave him to settle for a few moments, you are giving him the opportunity.  I hope your DH agrees with this.  I dont want him to think I am telling you to let your LO cry it out!!!  I would never do that.  I posted a thread a while ago asking if I was letting DD CIO - in fact I have found my old post

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=146642.msg1622225#msg1622225

If you read that you will see that I was also very scared of letting her cry but she did learn to fall asleep on her own without crying but I think we had to go through that wee spell to get her there.

I hope that helps honey.  I know Its very difficult to know where to start but I think, a few more days of the same A's and to make sure he is not OT then we can tackle the holding prop - what do you think?? 

We are off to the zoo tomorrow.  Im terrified as DD no longer sleeps in her buggy so I think she may not sleep the whole day  and then we are going out for dinner (my mum is up from Bristol for the weekend so I agreed to let Holly stay up a bit later  ) so I ma in for a horrific night no doubt.  So I probably wont be online until tomorrow night but let me know how you get on with naps tomorrow.  Good vibes for you LO 

Laura
X

[Barbaara]

What she said! 

I'm not sure you should wait a couple of days more before you're going to get rid of you being the prop.  To me it doesn't sound like he's OT.  When you do decide to start, you should stick with it and not give in.  Otherwise you're giving him mixed signals and that's pretty confusing.  Some OT is to be expected when getting rid of a prop, but he might just surprise you and catch on really quickly.    Consistency is the key though!

I also agree with Laura regarding the settling at night.  I know it's easier to go in before he's fully awake, but that way he doesn't learn to settle himself at all.  A couple of though nights and things should be improving really fast! Maybe you could turn the monitor down at night or try to sleep with earplugs just to drown out the fussing. That way it might be easier to ignore it and wait until he really needs you.

When you do decide to tackle the problem, we'll be here to hold your hand along the way, don't worry! 

Laura, have a lovely day at the zoo!  DH has been wanting to go as well, but I feel like DD is still to young to really enjoy it.  But maybe I'm wrong? 

Have a great day ladies!!

xx

[mokey_cat]

I'm not sure you should wait a couple of days more before you're going to get rid of you being the prop.  To me it doesn't sound like he's OT.  When you do decide to start, you should stick with it and not give in.  Otherwise you're giving him mixed signals and that's pretty confusing.  Some OT is to be expected when getting rid of a prop, but he might just surprise you and catch on really quickly.    Consistency is the key though!

I have to say that I agree with Barbara that he doest sound too OT, and would also be inclined to start right away as well.  Try not to worry too much about OT for the next few days, he probably will get a bit OT but it wont last long.

Barbara - I think my LO might still be a bit young to appreciate it as well but all the family are going so it should be fun  .  I just need a trailer to  carry everything I need for her  .

Have a nice weekend ladies!!

X

[TurboMum]

Hiya!!! I just love you ladies!!!    

OK, we had a pretty good night after a good day!

He went to bed at 8.40pm, then woke at 9.10 (30min after bed, so OT, isn't it?), 11.00, 3.50 (BF - I really think he can do without the night feed now... have your LOs dropped it yet?), and 5am and 6am this morning but we didn't go in and he resettled by himself until 7.15 I think when we heard him again and started the day! I am really happy with it!   DH tried to jump in but I held him back and eventually all three of us fell back to sleep!

I'm not sure you should wait a couple of days more before you're going to get rid of you being the prop.  To me it doesn't sound like he's OT.  When you do decide to start, you should stick with it and not give in.  Otherwise you're giving him mixed signals and that's pretty confusing.  Some OT is to be expected when getting rid of a prop, but he might just surprise you and catch on really quickly.    Consistency is the key though!

I have to say that I agree with Barbara that he doest sound too OT, and would also be inclined to start right away as well.  Try not to worry too much about OT for the next few days, he probably will get a bit OT but it wont last long.

I know he might not sound too OT and especially after these couple of days' good naps... I think it was ME who need sometime to get ready to be very determined! I'm sooo weak and easy to give in! So I agree with Laura that we give it another few days sticking to the As and see if we really got it right, and then we start the lay-down-awake process, OK?

It's sooo hard not to go rushing in every time you here them making a sound.  For a while DD would wake up during the night and sometimes it took her up to 40 mins to start crying.   

I know! Tell me about it! When DH offered to help, he was stamping on the floor waiting soooo anxiously to go in when I tried to hold him back for a little... but then I couldn't hold for too long either... so oh well.... plus I haven't really figured out his sort of intermittent cries and real cries - they all sound soo anxious! Just making things even harder!

Sorry I meant to ask you Barbara - did you leave her for that 40min and even at night? When she starts crying, what did you do when you go in? Shhpat?


I also think DS might be too old for shhpat as well... it worked before but seems not any more (however I'm not too sure either as I haven't really used it that much now since we started the picking-up game... )... so I will give it a try again once we start to get rid of the prop!

So just now I lay him down drowsy for his first nap after 3hr10min... and left room in 5min!!! and he's still sleeping...now is 30min mark...let's see if he wakes..... I'm watching him on the monitor...it's soooo cool! absolutely cracking that I can check on him without going into his room!!! One of my best buys, really impressed!!

Laura - your detailed description of how you processed to lay your LO down awake really helped and I'll def stick that in my mind and follow suit once we start DS on this! I'll also check up your other thread too...Thank you million time!!!! You are a star!!! 

Have great fun at the zoo!!! I'm sure she'll enjoy it as much as she can! You might be impressed!!!      

You ladies have a great weekend!!! Will keep you posted...

Thanks thanks thanks soooo much!!!

T xx

[Barbaara]

Hi T,

That's really great news he was able to resettle on his own!! Good job for not rushing in!    If you keep it up, things should improve fairly quickly.

Yes I left DD until she was really crying and sometimes it took up  to 40 mins, but usually about 25 mins or so.  Shh/pat worked really well for us when she was only a couple of weeks old and I taught her how to fall asleep independently, but when she was 4 mos it didn't work anymore.  I was still shielding her eyes, but eventually that became a distraction as well.  Now I do PU/PD when needed.

I haven't fed DD at night for over 4 mos now.  I stopped BF entirely when she was 3.5 mos old and after that she hasn't needed a feed a night.  Before I switched to formula only occasionally during a GS.  If I'm not mistaken they don't really need a feed at night any more when they're 6 mos old.   

Take your time hun!  You have to be ready for it otherwise I'm guessing you'll just end up giving in. 

xx

[mokey_cat]

Hi T.  Thats wonderful news!!!  Well done you for hanging back during those mornign wake ups.  Each time he does this he is another step closer to being a fully independent sleeper 

I know he might not sound too OT and especially after these couple of days' good naps... I think it was ME who need sometime to get ready to be very determined! I'm sooo weak and easy to give in! So I agree with Laura that we give it another few days sticking to the As and see if we really got it right, and then we start the lay-down-awake process, OK?

Yes, you are right to take a wee break then and build up strength and motivation so you stick at it then.  Just let us know when you are going to start and we will help you through it 

I meant to say in my last post that when settling DD to sleep - if I put her down and she WAS NOT crying - then I just walked out of the room.  I started by patting all the time even when she was not crying but I could see it was slowly becoming a prop.  So just to say, if he is not crying, just try leaving him awake and see what happens.  He will probably end up crying for you and you will need to return to start with but I just dont want you to replace the holding prop by a patting prop!!  So only use pattin etc when he is actually crying (not mantra or fussing)

We stopped night feeds at 3.5 or 4 months as well.  Im sure Barbara is right that babies dont NEED a night feed after 6 months although a lot of people continue to do so until later (especially if BFing).  But if you want to wean the night feed, then I would say this is a great time to do it.  Just resettle at all NW's and he will then know he is not getting fed iykwim.  Its up to you though.  He may stop demanding a feed as often when he starts sleeping better at nights anyway.

Our day was great fun.  Poor DD was exhausted and only slept 20 mins when we were out.  She slept in the car home and went to bed at 8pm but is still fussing just now after 20 mins so must be soooo OT.  But she loved it so it was worth it!!

Hope you girls had a lovely day with the lovely weather!!

XXX

[Barbaara]

Lovely weather??    Rain in Belgium baby! 

DD gave us 2 35 mins naps and then a 1h30 nap (luckily!)    Don't know what that was all about, think she's in some kind of discomfort because it took us 2h to get her to fall asleep.  Her temperature was rising so we gave her some paracetamol but by then she was seriously OT.  Maybe she's coming down with something...  Could teething be causing her fever?

Laura, I'm happy you had a great day and I hope Holly has a good night!

T, how's your day been?

x

[mokey_cat]

I thought it would be nice in Belgium too today but then its forecast for rain here tonight  .

Im pretty sure Holly has a slight temp when she is badly teething and she gets the 35min naps when her gums are sore as well (always 35 mins!!).  If you try some paracetamol 30 mins before her naps to see if that helps.  Does she have any teeth yet?  I use Ashton and Parsons teething powder which really help before her nap but if its really bad I will use paracetamol at bedtime.

But I would just keep an eye out for the fever as she might be coming down with something    I hope not!!

Teething babies are NOT FUN though haha 

XX

[TurboMum]

Ohhhh yes.. I think that sounds like teething!     Fever, red cheek, extra drolling and especially the 2hr settling time definitely means discomfort and very likely teething discomfort! Perhaps try some meds 1/2 hour before her naps? (oh Laura - you got there first! heehee....)

And the Belgian rain has moved up here....   But overall we had pretty good weather until just now...

Our day wasn't too good I suppose - broken naps all day! 

Awake: 7.20
E. 7.30 BF + 8.30 solids
A.
S. 10.35 - 11.10    11.28-12.20  still wake up crying....
E. 12.35 BF + 1.35 solids
A.
S. 3.37 - 4.08   4.37 - 5.22  and wake up crying....
E. 7.05
S. 7.45


I kind of thinking perhaps the A wasn't quite right? Perhaps I shouldn't really stick with 3hr20min A after a broken nap in the morning? I'm inclined to try 3hr15min for his pm nap tomorrow and see if that makes any difference? But I'm not sure about the morning A - in the last three days we had 3hr5min, 3hr10min and today's 3hr15min A and I got broken naps all three days? Wonder why?

I also have some questions -
1. Since he can handle 3hr+ A now he has only two naps which is great. But I wonder what A should he do before bedtime? Last three days we had 3hr10min after a broken pm nap, 3hr15min after a good pm nap and today he's down after 2hr23min after his broken pm nap (which was really not good I believe), which is quite different from previous two days. Today I felt a bit lost as I don't know when to put him to bed (and he was rubbing eyes quite often since up from his broken nap.  I think he was very tired). How long do your LOs do after the pm nap?

2. I wonder what your feeding schedule was like? As I try to keep 4hr routine and I can stick with it in the mornings, the last two feeds in the afternoon always seem ended up only 2hrs apart and the last one he doesn't take much probably because not hungry enough. This would make NF weaning difficult wouldn't it? as he hasn't stocking up enough calories from his last feed - and which is supposed to last him till the morning? I wonder how I should play around this? Drop one day feed so that he takes more each time? 

3. DS woke up crying both naps even though they are decent length although broken. The pm one he actually wanted to sleep more but I sort of woke him as it was nearly 5.30pm! I wonder if that means 1.5hr nap is still not good enough for him? Or just broken naps won't satisfy him at the moment?

And you ladies have dropped the NF since 3 or 4months? Oh LORD... that's quick! I think Laura you are right it's the right time to do it now! The last few times he was really just using the sucking sensation to go back to sleep, leaving me sooooo sleepy and nodding my head off on the sofa    But I know he can do without it cos he had only 1 NF when he was about 3-4months old and he could go 7-8hrs without a feed then and he should be able to do better now, shouldn't he?

I hope you ladies have a good night! And so do your LOs!

T xx

[mokey_cat]

Hi T

I would maybe try a shorter morning A - most babies tend to do the shorter A then.  So try 3hrs to start with and see how he gets on.  Try it for 3 days, then we can judge if he is OT or UT.  As long as he is happy during his A time.  Does he give many tired signs during this morning A?

I think you are right about decreasing the A time after a broken morning nap then.  So if he sleeps a good am nap, try 3hr20 but if its broken, try 3hrs10/15 and see if that helps.  I want you to get that nice long unbroken nap again!!

I was never sure about the final A time either and I kind of stuck at 2hr45 for some reason.  It was like that for a while which worked great but then we started getting EW's so now I dont have a clue what it should be.  Now I wont let Holly sleep past 4.30pm and I put her to bed at 7.30pm no matter what time she got up from her last nap, even if it was 3!!  She actually sleeps better if she has a really long A before bed 

Hope you have a better day!!  Oh we have rain now too haha!!

XX

[TurboMum]

Hi ladies,

We didn't have many NWs last night which is great So I think 2hr15-30min before bedtime might work better for DS. HOwever our night was ROUGH! 

DS went to bed at 7.45 yesterday then briefly woke at 8.25 then didn't wake again until 1.15am!  But this time it lasted for 2hrs!  He woke initially didn't cry, played for about 10min then started crying. I went in to put him back to sleep and tried to lay him down drowsy as I did before but not very successful!  (I don't why it tends to happen like this sometimes it's ok to lay him drowsy in the beginning of his bedtime but not quite ok when he wokes in the middle... )

After 1.5hrs try I was really tired and DH offered to help. BUT he lost his temper within five minutes being in there! I was sooo angry with him!!! He made DS suffer even more! How dare he! I sooo hated him!   Then after that five minutes I had to go in and to it myself again.. so until about 3.15 DS finally settled.... my poor little thing!

This morning I heard him again at 7.10 when I thought he just woke up.. but now I'm not quite sure about that... cos DS just went down for his nap at 9.45 (I didn't expect him to nap until around 10.30 though.. but....) because he was sooo sleepy and was falling asleep in my arms when we were downstaires.... so I brought him to his room and he went down easy! So I think maybe he was up waaaaayyyy before 7.10?  But when???  It is soo hard to judge the am wake up time if they don't make much sound isn't it? Even with a monitor!    I'm just gonna see if he's going to give me an UT nap....


One good thing about last night though was NO NF! And he seems to be quite ok with it this morning... so from now on... no NF every night! haha...

Yup... I'll try the new As for the next 3 days and see how it goes... oh btw.. how did you do the feeds then when your LO have 2 naps a day? I can't seem to fit in his dinner for him because his last two feeds were so clustered together...

It rained last night but now it's beautiful outside!  Just not sure how long it will last... you know British weather.....

HOpe you have a good day too! Will keep you posted!

Thanks millions,
T xx

[TurboMum]

Oh also Barbara - you do PUPD with your LO? I kind of dread that but I suppose I may have to do it as well if shhpat doesn't work for DS? I wonder how long shhpat I should try before I decide "ok it's not working"? 20min? 30min?

DS WILL sit up when woke crying in the middle of his sleep. If I shhpat, do I lay him down? But he'll keep sitting up though...

If I PUPD, I wonder if I should lay him down on his back or his tummy? He's generally tummy sleeper but has now changed to prefer side sleeping I think although sometimes he sleeps on his back too. We normally lay him down on his tummy but then will quickly find that he's on his side sleeping... The reason I ask is if I lay him on his tummy, he'll get up soo easily... if on his back.. he probably wont' like it much which wouldn't assist him going to sleep would it? I tried sometimes lay him on his back and put my hand on his chest/or pat his chest... but he'll push my hand away... wonder how I should do this?   This question may sound stupid.. but just wondered how you do it! Thanks!

Anyways, just to get some ideas to help prepare myself... I think I'm gonna start this soon cos 2hr wake-up time in the middle of the night is NOT good for DS... I'm still feeling very sad about last night...  

oh well... today is another day.... will keep it up and see how it goes...

Thank YOU ladies sooo much!!!  

T xx