How to get our routine more consistent? Every day is completley different.

[clazzat]

There is a difference between going to sleep and resettling between sleep cycles, and it also takes them longer to figure out sleeping during the day compared to during the night - just developmental things that you have to ride out to a certain extent. It's also worth thinking about teeth at this age - they can start causing disruption even if you can't see anything happening.  There is so much going on!

[creations]

in peoples experience do LO's ever manage to get themselves back to sleep after 45mins with a mantra.. ive always thought with her she either sleeps through, or wakes.. very rarely does she go back to sleep herself.

but at the ages shes at do babies always wake fully between cycles?

Yes, as clazzat says they can put themselves back to sleep after a mantra. However, she is in the habit of waking after 1 cycle which is why I suggest using W2S to teach her to resettle at that transition. It could take just 3 days (or may need a few cycles of 3 days then a day off).  The mantra at 45 mins says to me that the A increase was better for her, made her tired enough to need the second cycle although as she didn't get it she became OT later.
Although Tracy advised to leave babies who are mantra-crying to self settle I learned with mine if he mantraed for more than say 2 or 3 mins he wasn't going to self settle (total independent sleeper but it meant something else was off and he needed a bit of help), I could leave him 45 mins doing it and in the end he'd escalated into an I need you cry.  So here if it went more than 2 mins I popped back in to give him a little pat/stroke or verbal reassurance and he'd settle fast to sleep.
Even adults wake at sleep cycles, about 5 or 6 times per night, we don't remember it but it is a brief awakening, we turn and go back to sleep. So waking is normal.

I agree you can set up a routine you are happy with, stick with a short morning nap if you like (in that case you would have a shorter first A) and go for the longer lunch time nap. It looks to me though like you could get that first long nap if you continue with the 2hr A for a few days, use W2S and see how things go. IMO trying to keep each day roughly the same in terms of nap length and where the nap is will help a lot to establish a routine so perhaps decide what you'd prefer before moving forward.

[Honeymonster]

Yipee... We're currently at 1hr10 and counting for first nap!! She didn't wKe at 6 this morning so only had the one feed during the night like she was doing before. Had 2 hr awake time this morning but also had a bath this morning as we're going out this afternoon. So she was pretty tired by nap time.. Was actually having a wee tired moan as I was getting her dressed.. Anyway she's still sleeping so that's good. I think tomo I'll try with 2hrs again or a tiny 5/10min push (as the bath must have shattered her more I think) and I'll see how she goes for a couple of days and if we don't get any consistency I'll try W2S!

If 2 hrs A time seems to be working better would you suggest a longer second A time?

[creations]

Great news!

I would imagine the bath would tired her, could be a higher stimulation level, or perhaps she finds it relaxing and readies her for a nice sleep.

I would give the slightly longer second A especially on a day the first nap has gone longer than 45 mins, you used to get a decent length nap there so I'd be looking for that again.

[Honeymonster]

Just a quick update for you both.. It's still a bit all over the place but getting much better. Yesterday's morning a of 2hrs got me a 45min nap with happy awakening so pushed it to 2hr 10 this morning and she slept for exactly an hour! It seems now she's caught up on her sleep from a bit of built up OTness I'm needing to push her A time even further. So after our 1 he nap I tried to put her down for lunchtime nap after 2hrs (as she hadn't had long in the morning) ... Wide awake and not having any of it.. So got her back up for some quiet activities then tried again after 2.5hr a time and we got a 2hr nap. She resettled herself with about 30seconds of mantra at the 45min mark! She then wasn't tired enough for her catnap so he just stayed up until bed and actually coped alright? What are your thoughts,, surely it too soon for only 2 naps? So today looked like this:

Awake:7.20
E 7.30
A7.20-9.30
S9.30-10.30
A10.30-1
E11.30 (top up at 12.30)
S1-3
E3.30
E6.15
Bed. 7

She went down well and wasn't too fussy (usually if she's been up all afternoon we get a bit of a frantic bedtime but she was happy after her feed)
Woke at 45min mark as she has been every night but didn't open her eyes just a little moan and I put my hand on her and she went right back off.

All in all she's def better from stretching her a times but how far should I go. It's still different every day.. Positives though are that she's shown she can both transition past 45mins and also put herself back to sleep too which is super!

[Honeymonster]

Oh and I should say since altering a times we're back to sleeping pm7-7.30ish am with one wake up for a full feed (any time between 12.30 and 3 depending in how she's fed through the day) I don't do a dram feed

[clazzat]

Sounds like it is going great so I would stick with this for a few days and see how it goes. Good news!

[creations]

Great news!
Sounds like she is very close to independent sleep with just minimal help with that first NW - Great!

What are your thoughts,, surely it too soon for only 2 naps?

It's not unheard of. If you take into account that the 3-2 can happen around 5 or 6 months and add to that your LO *might* have needs closer to 5.5 months rather than 5 months then I think it is a real possibility. Although the main thing isn't her age but what suits her, if she gets longer naps which are more restorative on just 2 per day then this is better than 3 shorter naps.
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
So, you'd usually look for an A time of 3hrs to achieve 2 naps and you are not there yet - such a long A time to bed wouldn't usually be suggested.  I would stick at the 2hr 10 another day and see if the first nap lengthens, then prob increase the A again.  Even if the first nap does not lengthen (which I suspect it will on the right time which may be 2hr 30 at a guess) it would likely be preferable to spread out those 2 naps to reduce the A to BT.
It is possible to move to naps on a 2hr 30 A time if the naps are 2hrs long and if (as with your LO) the night length is long eg:

WU 7.30
A 2hr 30
S 10 - 12
A 2hr 30
S 2.30 - 4.30
A 2hr 30
BT 7.00

If she isn't ready just yet you might need to wing it a bit over the next couple of weeks whilst she gets there. Maybe try for a short CN or do EBT at 6 or 6.30 if the first nap is only an hour and teh CN is refused to avoid another 4hr A to bed.
hth

[Honeymonster]

Yup 4hrs to bedtime not good... I'm currently sitting at 4am and after waking at 11.30 for a feed she's now chatting away and has been for 30mins! .. Hmmm! Not ideal since her nights had gotten a lot better!

[Honeymonster]

I rekon she'd prob be close to the schedule you've posted there creations.. Its very very restrictive though it feels since she'll only catnap out of the house. Currently we've been having her catnap out in the buggy and that's when I meet up with people.. Any suggestions as to how I could fit a catnap in if her a time is stretching ? Maybe do a longer day and just aim for a 45min first nap? I really don't want to go back to being stuck in all the time just to get a decent nights sleep (and obv a well rested LO which is important). I also worry that the chatty awakenings are due to a long nap so late in the day but this is where we got all confused before.. I think her OT awakenings are just chatty cos she's a happy wee thing!

[Honeymonster]

Or maybe cut naps to 1.5 hrs? Just saw this on the examples  board, something like this may work:
lockie is 6.5mo today. he's ebf & is taking solids 3 times a day now. his routine - on a good day! - is as follows (though we may be increasing solids soon as he always wants more!):

E-7:00am wake & bf 5-10mins
A-8:00am solids - rice cereal 2Tbsp
S-9:00am nap
A-10:30am wake
E-11:00am bf 5-10mins
A-11:45am solids - vegetables 2Tbsp
S-12:30pm nap
A-2:00pm wake
E-3:00pm bf 5-10mins
S-4:30pm catnap
A-5 pm wake
E-5:00pm bf 5-10mins
A-5:45pm solids - vegetables 2Tbsp
A-6:15pm bath, massage
S-7:00pm bedtime following bf top-up

Obv not the solids part.

Although she never really has ever taken a 1.5 hr nap so I'd have to wake her .. Feels mean if she wants to sleep till 2 hrs! Sorry for the multiple posts,. I'm keen to get this sorted as returning to work soon.. I know it will change again probably but would be good to get a bit more consistency first.

[Honeymonster]

Just had a 6am awakening crying.. Would only settle with a feed! That's technically 3 night feeds she's had.. We had got down to one again :-( I'm sleepy! .. Could all that really just be caused by too long and A time before bed? it's so complex.. What do people do who don't know about BW and don't understand any of this? I take back what I said about needing to get out and about.. I need my sleep more before I go back to work! :-)
Sorry your getting all my thinking out loud from the nifht!

[creations]

It's ok to get your thoughts out here, I often find it helps to think things through 'out loud'.
Sorry, I'm not surprised by the disturbed night, not nice for you

So, I think you really have to decide what you want before you move ahead. If it's ability to go out then choose which part of the day you are going to go out and try to make arrangements around that, planning for one decent nap at home and reducing A time before naps out and about so they are CNs, prob do 1 longer nap and 2 CNs. it really doesn't matter whether the long nap is morning or afternoon (unless it becomes glaringly apparent that it does matter by her behaviour and mood) but I really do advise you keep it regular, choose and stick to it.
If it's long naps then the chances are you are going to have to do shorter trips out so you are home for the naps. I don't think anyone here is going to tell you you have to do this, we all know getting out is good for our sanity and for LO to see the world.  Have a think. Her A time would be moving towards 2hr 30 rather than 1hr 45 so there is a chance to get out for say 2hrs between naps if you have things prepared for getting straight out the door as soon as she wakes (I used to stand next to DS's bed with the sling on and ready to lift him into it the moment he woke! Literally drove to a park fed and changed him in the open air so we could both see the sky, trees and hear the birds sing, then get him back in the car to get home!).
I realise this is not easy to decide on a plan. In the night you feel like naps are more important because you need your night sleep, in the day you feel like you need to get out.

I have no idea how others manage but I do know that a lot goes on behind closed doors that we are not always aware of. A mum I met IRL felt terribly sorry for me that DS would not sleep outside the house, she watched me rock and walk him in the sling trying to AP a nap whilst she just put her LO on the floor, anywhere, with any bit of cloth to use as a lovey (not even his own lovey!!) and her LO just self settled and napped silently. Amazing.  However during our chat I discovered that whilst DS STTN her LO was up 6 times a night and she was a wreck.  Other's lives with LOs are not always as trouble free as they may appear.

hugs

[Honeymonster]

Your so right creations. I need to think about a plan and stick to it and be consistent, the thing is I'm going back to work in august (just 2.5 days a week) and my mum and OH's mum are going to be looking after LO on alternate weeks until she starts nursery later in the year. So I need to think about what's going to work best to them too. My mum hates being stuck in the house but OH's mum is a bit less mobile and would probably rather be in more than having to push the buggy for catnaps. That's why I'm getting all stressed about getting some consistency before they start helping.. I had got much more relaxed about it all and although I was happy to begin with, things did start to slip with bedtimes and NWs.

Your also so right about what goes on behind closed doors- I have some friends I meet with from a baby music group and out of all their LOs, my dd is by far the best sleeper at night. Even the ones older than her have more night wakenings and they always comment on how relaxed and happy she seems all the time when we are out. Most of them have to AP for all daytime naps and I recognised lots of OT behavior whenever I'm with them that they don't always recognise.. It's all fine and good just now in the sun.. But what happens in the middle of a British winter when you HaVE to push a buggy to get a sleep!... I think I've just answered my own question! I'm really lucky to have a LO who will self settle and take good naps at home.. And because of this she also self settles well at night when on a good routine!

Can I ask if we did get to 2 x 2 hr naps what would be the next thing to drop as she moves onto a 3hr awake time ? Would the am one shorten first usually?

Thanks for all the support! Really appreciate it. Oh has just started a new job and is shattered coming in so gets totally sick of me going over and over what to do (plus he never does BT or NW just now so doesn't care so much) and all my baby mummy friends don't really believe in setting routines and are much more ATtachment parent inclined in their views so I don't really talk to them about it.. Plus I feel guilty sometimes (although I know I shouldn't) when they say their LOs are up so much in the night etc. when DD has been mostly great, xx

[creations]

It's a lot to think about and I can understand why you are trying to think of everyone's needs with you going back to work and different people minding her etc. Tricky, but try to think of yourself too LOs have a tendency to nap differently for other people so even if you had the 'perfect' routine in place it would likely get thrown up in the air. Try not to worry too much, she will be fine with her GPs

Once you're on 2 naps it should all settle down for a while. Hopefully you don't need to think about naps changing again for several months.  The 2-1 journey might begin around 10 months (but can be later) with one nap shortening. It doesn't matter which one, whichever suits your routine and LO's needs. For example because DS always had a great first nap at home (and we went out in the afternoon) I held on to his 2 hr nap which began as a morning nap and moved later in the day (increasing first A time) until it became an afternoon nap.  During the transition there would be a CN in the afternoon/eve and BT moved a little later until CN was cut and BT moved earlier.
However it is totally fine to keep an afternoon nap, in this case you'd cap the morning nap shorter and shorter allowing more A time before second nap and again shift BT if needed.  Neither is 'right' or 'wrong'.