3-2 Transition and now NWs and EW

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That's great he's doing so well for settling at nap time

If I am supposed to try for 45min for a nap, would that still be the case with a late CN?

You can cut the CN to 30 minutes, or even 20 if it's falling later than usual.  That should help give you some flexibility with it.

Would I try until 6, get him up if he didn't sleep, then feed, and try for BT?

Yes, this is exactly what I'd do.  If he falls asleep during nursing you probably need to wake him I'm afraid if you want to carry on with sleep training.  I'd normally say a one off wouldn't matter but if you're right in the middle of sleep training it might confuse him.  He doesn't need to be wide awake and playing - just enough to realise that you're putting him to bed and leaving the room.

How did last night go?

[Mom2012]

Well to my amazement, he actually fell asleep for that CN the other day!  He is doing so much better than I thought he would so far.  His second nap is not consistent-has been 30min one day, 1hr the next, and then 40min the next day.  He is waking around 5:30 each morning except for this morning when he woke at 6:10.  He did have his NF a lot later that night so I'm wondering if that's what made the difference.  I thought it was okay since he's going to bed early, but one night he went to bed a little later and still woke around 5:30 so maybe it's something causing that WU time??   I would love to be able to push his WU and BT to be a little later.  It is really hard for me to get him asleep around 6 since DH isn't usually home by then so I have both boys by myself.  It makes it hard to entertain DS1 and nurse and put DS2 to bed.  I was wondering if you could take a look at our last few days and see if you think some tweaking in A times would help with that second nap and hopefully push our times back some. 

Monday: (1st day with ST)
BT last night was 6:35 ~ This was the night with the awful crying/choking when we PUd and fed
WU: 5:35
Nap 1: 8:30-10:30 (2hr nap with A time of 2hr 55min; went right to sleep with my hand on back)
Nap 2: 1:40-2:10 (30min nap with A time of 3hr 10min; went right to sleep with my hand on back)
Nap 3: 5:20-5:40 (20min nap with A time of 3hr 10min; took about 15min to go to sleep with some patting and my hand on back )
BT: 7:05 (A time of 1hr25min; took about 15min to go to sleep with some patting and my hand on back)
NWs:8:00 (settled himself), 12:20(NF)

Tuesday:
WU: 5:30
Nap 1: 8:30-10:30 (2hr nap with A time of 3hr; went right to sleep with my hand on back)
Nap 2: 1:40-2:45 (1hr 5 min nap with A time of 3hr 10min, went right to sleep with my hand on back)
BT: 6:15 (A time of 3hr 30min; took about 10min to go to sleep with some patting and my hand on back)
NWs: 8:10 (DH went in after he started crying and didn't take long to settle with his hand on back), 11:10 (settled himself), 2:40 (NF)

Wednesday:
WU: 6:10
Nap 1: 9:15-11:05 (1h 50min nap with A time of 3hr 5 min; I kept him up a few min longer b/c he didn't seem tired and went right to sleep with hand on back)
Nap 2: 2:15-2:55 (40min nap with A time of 3hr 10min; didn't seem as tired again but went right to sleep with hand on back)
BT: 6:15 (A time of 3hr 20min; took a little less than 10 min to go to sleep with a little patting and hand on back)

I know you said as he gets more sleep, I might need to extend A times.  Do you think extending might help?  He seemed tired as usual Monday and Tuesday, but today he just didn't seem as tired before both naps.  He did get more sleep last night so maybe thats why. 

Am I "cheating" for his naps?  I have always done this routine for nap time but wondered if I was helping him get too drowsy: about 10min before I put him in bed, we read books, then we walk around the house a few mins and talk/sing songs.  Then I take him in his room to swaddle and sing one song then put him in bed.  He is always awake when I put him down though but I wondered if I was doing too much.  Is this something I need to do less of gradually or is it ok? 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

No, I'd say that was perfect - it looks like he's doing really well. That's brilliant he's resettling himself at night sometimes too. Well done you! The only thing I'd start working on now is getting him to fall asleep with your hand next to him rather than on him.  I've done it before by slowly lifting my hand so that gradually the pressure is less, and then moving it slowly to the mattress. Otherwise I think you're doing great!

With that second nap, I agree,  it's confusing.  It starts off looking OT buy then sounds UT after a couple of days.  Have you tried reducing that second A slightly,  to rule out OT?  Or is he on the same A times he's always had? If so, you could try increasing his first A slightly to 3rs 10ish, but leave the others the same for now, so you can see what the impact is.

[Mom2012]

I haven't changed A times in a while now.  I went ahead and increased his first A time by 10 min this morning.  He's been asleep for 1hr now so, so far so good!  Great news! He only woke once last night at 12:30 so went ahead and fed and he then slept until 6:30.  WOW! 

Should I keep the second A time the same for now and see if that first increase helps out?

With DS1 we were very slow with the GW process.  I let him hold my hand to sleep for a very long time.  So you think I should go ahead now and start doing less for him to go to sleep?  You said to try putting less pressure with my hand and moving it to the mattress.  Would I do this for naps, BT, and NWs?  What if he does okay with that step for one time, let's say BT, but he seems to need more help another time, let's say NWs.  Would it be okay to keep patting/put my hand on his back for NWs but stop doing it at BT or naps if he doesn't need it then?

[Mom2012]

Well he woke at 1hr 20min for the first nap. He has been doing about a 2 hr nap for the last 4 days, so do you think I shouldn't have increased his A time?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I'm so pleased your nights are so much better

I wouldn't take too much from that one nap today - my LOs nap lengths used to fluctate all the time and it's hard to tell from one day. 1hr 20 is still a good nap - it was 2 sleep cycles for my littlest LO and a fully refreshing nap for him so it might be that was all your LO needed that day.  One thing I really learnt with my second one is that a bit of consistency does wonders when it comes to A times.  You start to notice patterns of sleep when you increase A' which helps you figure out what to do when it goes wrong again!

Should I keep the second A time the same for now and see if that first increase helps out?

I would stick with the increased first A time only for 2 more days and then see where he is.  If you think he's clearly UT for his second nap then go ahead and increase it before then if you like, but if you're not sure, I'd increase the first only and just observe for at least 3 days in total.  If his first nap stays at 1hr 20 or more on those A times, then I'd go ahead and increase his other A's as well.

With DS1 we were very slow with the GW process.  I let him hold my hand to sleep for a very long time.  So you think I should go ahead now and start doing less for him to go to sleep?  You said to try putting less pressure with my hand and moving it to the mattress.  Would I do this for naps, BT, and NWs?  What if he does okay with that step for one time, let's say BT, but he seems to need more help another time, let's say NWs.  Would it be okay to keep patting/put my hand on his back for NWs but stop doing it at BT or naps if he doesn't need it then?

I think he's doing really well and you *could* make the next step with GW if you wanted to, but you don't *have* to if you're comfortable with where you are and would prefer to take it slower.  If NWs increase again I'd definitely step it up though.  If you do want to go ahead, then yes, I'd do the same thing every time he's going (back) to sleep.  If he needed more help for NWs, for example, you could take that a bit slower I guess, though personally I'd do the same everywhere and suffer a slightly longer NW if need be, rather than always wonder if I was getting more NWs cos he'd sussed he got more time with me then than at other times.  But I'm quite strict when I sleep train and like to be clear on what the various factors might be.  It doesn't mean you have to

[Mom2012]

Well the first nap was worse today. I must say though that he had a bad poopy diaper right before I was getting ready to take him in his room so that threw us off some so maybe that caused it. I'll see how he does tomorrow with the new A time increase since that will be the third day and I'll let you know how it goes. 

I think I do want to go ahead and take the next step with GW but I'm still a little unsure if I'm doing it right.  Sometimes he doesn't cry and let's me just put my hand on his back and go to sleep but other times he cries. So I feel inconsistent.   I think my LOs crying makes me nervous and I feel like I have to do what I can to make him stop so I think I'm doing more than I should because I don't like him crying.  When he is in the bed, he moves around a lot while crying.  He rolls around and sometimes hits his head on the sides of the crib.   I feel like I'm following him trying to put my hand on him to calm him.  And I try to scoot him back when his head is hitting the sides.  Should I not do this?  Am I supposed to only talk to him and out my hand on him once he's more still? Or is it ok to do this while he's moving around crying but my next step would be once he is calm to then move my hand to the mattress?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, let me know how you get on with the increased A time.

On the GW, I  know it's really hard to see your LO  cry but the idea really is that he has a chance to learn to self settle before you step in. So I wouldn't put your  hand on him unless he's already crying,  and I'd try and soothe with your voice first,  and then put your hand on him only if that doesn't work.  If he's rolling around and hitting his head I would probably haul him back into the middle too, but only if he's hitting his head hard.  If he's just rolling over and ending up by the edge I'd leave him.

That makes me wonder - is he in a full size cot?  Is he swaddled? I wonder if he might like that if he's used to being held, as it'll make him feel more secure?

[Mom2012]

Yes, he is in a full size bed and he is swaddled but with his arms out.  I will try to step back some and let him learn to self soothe first before putting my hand on him. 

I don't know why his sleep is so inconsistent.  I was thinking things were going good and then last night it got bad again and today's naps haven't been great.  Can you take a look at the last few days?  I increased the morning A time by 10min on Thursday.  It has now been 4 days with that increase.  He was starting to sleep longer at night, so I thought that 10min increase would help with naps but now I just don't know what's going on.  What's weird is yesterday he actually had good naps but then had his worse night.  I don't know if he just had an off night or what.  I know babies will have good days and bad, but it's hard to figure out what to do when he is inconsistent. 

Wednesday Night:
BT: 6:15
NWs: 12:15 (NF at 12:35 when he started crying out)

Thursday:
WU: 6:30
Nap 1: 9:35 - 11:00 (1hr 25min nap with A time of about 3hr5min)
Nap 2: 2:05 - 3:10 (1hr 5min nap with A time of about 3hr 5min)
BT: 6:35 (A time of 3hr 25min; took about 20min to fall asleep)
NWs: 10:00 (DH went in after 10min when he started crying out, took him about 20min to go back to sleep)
         4:50am(NF)

Friday:
WU:7:00
Nap 1: 10:10-11:05 (He woke crying about 5min after I laid him down, so went in and pat/shh and after 10min or so he went back to sleep.  So total maybe 45min of actual sleep with A time of 3hr10min)
Nap 2: 2:10-3:00 (50min nap with A time of 3hr 5min)
BT: 6:20 (A time of 3hr20min; took only about 10min to fall asleep)
NWs: 3:45am (went in for NF at 4:00 when he cried)

Saturday:
WU: 7:00
Nap 1: 10:10-12:10 (2hr nap with A time of 3hr10min)
Nap 2: 3:15-4:15 (I woke him at 1hr so he would have decent BT; A time of 3hr5min)
BT: 7:30 (A time of 3hr 15 min; took only 10min to go to sleep)
NWs: 10:45 (was in with him about 25min getting him back to sleep)
         11:15(woke up not too long after and this time was in there for an hour!)
         12:25 (again woke up not too long after so thought maybe he was hungry so went ahead and fed right when I went in)

Sunday:
Early WU: 5:40
Nap 1: 8:50-10:00 (1hr 10min nap with A time of 3hr 10min)
Nap 2: 1:10-1:50 (40min nap with A time of 3hr 10min)
-Guess we will try squeezing in a CN this afternoon

[LovelyLilyandJack]

To be honest, I can't see anything obvious as to why Saturday night and today haven't been good.  It looks like he was doing really well until then.  How old is he now?  Could it be a growth spurt?

I'd stick with the A times you're currently on for a few more days if you can and see if it passes. Sorry, that's probably not what you wanted to hear,  but like I say, I can't see anything obvious in his routine, so not quite sure what else to suggest

[Mom2012]

I appreciate you looking! I couldn't figure out why he didn't do well last night and today either. Like you suggested, I guess I'll stick with it a few days and see how he does. Hopefully it was an off night and day and things start improving.

He is 7months and 1 week now. He got his first tooth a few weeks ago, so was wondering if maybe another could be trying to come through but I don't see anything yet.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Aah, yes, it could be.  My two got their second tooth about a week after their first.  The other thing is whether he's working on any milestones or if it's developmental. Anything like that going on?

[Mom2012]

He has been working on crawling for a couple of weeks now so not sure if that could cause any sleep disturbances.

He was doing so good getting closer to a 12 hour night, but this is the second morning in a row the EW is back and he's only getting a little over a 10hr night. He isn't crying so I have left him in there but I am still unsure of what A time to go with. Yesterday I stuck with when he actually woke up and he did about an hour nap. Maybe I should try what you suggested about halfing the time he woke and got up. I'm worried he will be OT though by the time I put him down.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

We got EWs with major milestones, so it definitely could be developmental...  Or teething - we got EW with those too.  My son is very prone to EW....!  I'm afraid I think you probably need to sit it out, but I will see if anyone else can take a look in case they have any ideas.  I'm finding it hard to see if he's OT or UT as his A times are about average now.  How is his mood?

My son often slept well after an A time push, but then after a few days of catching up on sleep, needed another push - but he was LSN and that won't work for many, so I don't want to push you in that direction unnecessarily.  The only other thought I had was to try a shorter A before bed as that one tends to end up longer than the others, and if he's going to bed OT that can cause EWs.

I'll see if anyone else can take a look for you...

[Mom2012]

I have a hard time telling when he's OT or UT. He is a happy baby and doesn't seem upset or fussy really so I'm not sure.

I have had to increase A times pretty quickly in the past because like you said with your LO he would do okay when I increased and then it seemed like he needed another increase in the next week or two. I'm nervous to increase again though just in case my instincts are wrong.

Yesterday he did three short naps (50min, 40min, 35min). He did however sleep last night from 6:35 to 5:35 without waking to eat. He woke once at 11 but didn't cry too much and put himself back to sleep. I have noticed I think we might be going in too soon. He is crying but when we go in there his cries get worse. So maybe I'm going in before he has a "I need you" cry.

Today he napped for 2hrs for the morning nap and he's asleep now. So again, very inconsistent! Maybe I should wait on increasing A times and see how he continues to do.

In regards to the A time before bed- he has been having pretty early BTs lately and like I said, it's hard for me to get him to bed early with DS1 around while DH isn't home from work yet. I try to get him asleep as soon as I can but could maybe try a little earlier. I struggle when his 2nd nap ends early because I don't know whether to do early BT or late CN. For example, look at today:
WU: 5:40
Nap 1: 8:45-10:45
Nap 2: 1:50-2:30
So now I struggle with whether to do early BT of 5:30 (which DH won't be home so I don't want to do this and iI'm terrified EW would be at 4:30!) or late CN at 5:30? He takes longer to go to sleep for a CN so he probably won't actually go to sleep right at 5:30. Then that pushes BT back to be pretty late for waking  at 5:40 this morning. So what would you say is the best option?