3-2 Transition and now NWs and EW

[Mom2012]

Ok, that all sounds like a good plan.

To be clear, are you saying to do that set bedtime every night no matter what? I've never done set bedtime before. It always changes based off when he wakes from that second nap.

Would I still do early bedtime of 6:15-6:30 even if his short second nap ended at 2:30? That is a long awake time for only having a 30 min nap, right?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

In that case I would probably AP a short (15/20 minute cn) after about 2hrs A if you can, and then a later BT of 7.15, depending on when the cn fell. Having said that, once my daughter dropped her third nap I remember she wouldn't go back to it for anything, so if you can't AP a cn I'd probably still brave an EBT  of 6.15, unless you think your LO will tack on and do a 13 hour night? If you think he would then by all means make BT even earlier Mine didn't tack on to that extent,  but I know some do.  You don't know til you try it

[Mom2012]

Well I ended up getting him asleep at 6:05 that night but he woke up an hour later and was up crying for 2 hours.  Then yesterday that second nap was only 10min! So I did bedtime about 6:30 because WU time from nap was different. He slept for about 3 hours and then was up crying again for 2 hours.  Yesterday he had one tooth cut through.  Today I can see 2 more are on their way! Good grief!! So I'm thinking between the short nap, all the teething, and standing, he's just going to continue with the NWs.  If thats the case, do you suggest not adjusting A times now, or do I go ahead and try?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

No, I'd go back to his old A times if he's teething.  Lots of LOs get more tired when they're teething, and if he's having long NWs and short naps he may get OT anyway.  Wait for those teeth to fully cut and then see where you are

[Mom2012]

I am feeling very discouraged and not sure where to go from here...

I feel like we have pretty much gone back to square one with GW.  When he was teething really bad and learning to pull up to stand all at the same time, I was doing pretty much whatever necessary to soothe him.  I didn't PU, but I would rub his back, sing, keep my hand on his back longer, etc. Well he had 4 teeth cut through in just a little over a week, so I think we have a little break from teething pain for now.  However, he is still not very stable when he pulls up to stand.  Most of the time he can figure out how to get down but he still falls a good bit.  When he started pulling up, I would sit on the floor with my arms through the rails and hold on to him to try to help prevent him from getting hurt.  As soon as I would put him in bed, he would pull up immediately and cry.  He will do this for as long as an hour before going to sleep.  When he finally lays down, I rub his back and sing.  Then I stop singing and rubbing but keep my hand on his back (longer than I should).  This is what I am doing now each night.  For naps, he usually goes right to sleep.

Since he got his teeth in, the long 2hr NWs have stopped.  The last 3 nights he has only woken once to eat around 2-4am.  But he has been waking early around 5:30.  He is getting about 10.5-11hrs sleep at night.  This might would be enough if he was getting more sleep during the day, but he isn't.  Naps aren't going too great either.  The second nap is still around 30min.  The first nap started to be really short also, but I think he was OT from the EWs.  Yesterday I decreased that A time by 10min and he slept better.  I'm hoping that continues to work.  But then  when I put him down for the second nap he stood and cried for 30min before falling asleep.  Even when the second nap is only 30min, he always goes right to sleep.  Is it possible he was OT in the morning but UT for the second nap??

So, I'm wondering...where do I go from here??  I start back work in 2.5 weeks.  He will be staying with a lady who will also have 3 other LOs around his age. So, she will not be able to spend the amount of time I do getting him to sleep.  I'm worried he will not sleep there!!  Do I try to start over with GW now, or is it too late?  With DS1, he too stood and cried (but he was 10.5mo so was much better at getting down without getting hurt).  With him, I sat on the floor with one hand through the rails.  He cried a while but eventually laid down beside me and held my hand.  I didn't touch him otherwise.  I am nervous to try this with DS2 because I'm afraid he will fall and will just never lay down!!!!  In your opinion, what should I do now??

[LovelyLilyandJack]

(((hugs))) I'm sorry you're feeling so discouraged. I actually think it sounds like he's doing quite well if the long nws have stopped and he's doing 10.5 - 11hrs at night, especially considering the teething and pulling up   I definitely don't think it's too late to get back to the GW either - it'll probably work quicker this time cos he'll realise what's going on.  The pulling up is tricky though. I would leave him to it as much as you can,  but if he's hurting himself when he falls you could help him lie down by bending his legs and showing him how to get himself down and then stand back again.  He'll most likely get up again, in which case you help him back down and do it all again.  I think I used to wait til J was looking like he wanted to get down but couldn't before I helped him rather than popping up and down all the time, and I used to say "lie down" while I did it.  It did take a while  (J's first words were "lie down", which gives you an idea of how much he heard it!), but we got there in the end. Eventually when he learnt to get down by himself I could just tell him to lie down and he  (begrudgingly) would, cos he knew I was only going to lie him down anyway if he didn't,  so it paid off in the long run too.

WRT naps, it definitely is possible that he was OT for his first nap and UT for his second. How old is he now, and what does his day look like typically?

[Mom2012]

Thanks for the encouragement!  So in your opinion, how would I start with GW now?  Should I continue with what I've been doing but just try to do less gradually? For example, maybe try to not rub his back but start with just putting my hand on his back to calm him.  Or, should I just start by not touching him at all (unless I need to help him down from standing so he won't get hurt)?

I know you said a while back you were always pretty aggressive with ST, so I'm thinking I need to do that now since we have been working on this for over 1.5mo now.  So, can you give me an example of how I would do that?  Would it be something like this:  Night 1- rub his back and then hand on his back, Night 2- just hand on his back, Night 3- no hand on his back but maybe on the mattress, Night 4 - No hand in the bed at all but sit by the bed .... Is that too fast, or would you maybe do some of those for two nights and then move on?

He is now almost 8.5mo.  On a typical day, he will nap around 1hr 15min in the morning (A time is 3hr 25min) and then 30min in the afternoon (A time is 3hr 35min).  If he has an EW then that second nap is pretty early so I will AP a CN in the car and then do BT about 1.5 hr later.  I have had to do this maybe 4 times in the last 2 weeks, but one of those times he wouldn't fall asleep.  If he wakes from the second nap close to 3, then I will aim for BT by 6:15. 

Before two days ago that morning A time was 3hr 35min but I went back down and he's napped a little over an hour.  The day before yesterday he cried for 30min when trying for that second nap, so I increased 10 min yesterday (so A time was 3hr 45min).  He went right to sleep but still slept 35 min.  I don't know what to do with that nap!  Is it possible that's all he will do?  It doesn't seem like that's enough day time sleep. 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hmm.... I would try a little more A time for that second nap.  So 3hr 25 first A, and I'd hold 3hr 45 for that second nap for a few more days to see if it improves.  My LB only ever did about 1.5hrs day sleep at that age, though he's very LSN so it doesn't necessarily follow that's right for your LO. It is a possibility though. How is his mood?

With the GW I would probably do what you suggested as the fast version, yes. Otherwise the next thing will come along which throws it again and you'll never get there! You could always hold at day 4 for a couple of days if it feels too fast for you, before starting to move away from the cot.

[Mom2012]

Ok, I did stick with the 3hr 45 min today for the second nap.  He cried and pulled up for about 5min but then laid down (with me rubbing his back). It has been 35min now, so we will see how he does.

As far as his mood, he is always very happy.  He does cry when he wakes from a nap, but he does this even for his morning nap.  As soon as I go in to him he is fine.  He never really fusses or cries unless it's in the bed when I'm trying to get him to sleep!

I had a feeling I should go with the fast approach now with GW.  I guess I will give it a go tonight!

I also wanted to ask your opinion about naps when I go back to work.  I have been working so hard adjusting and trying to find the right A times for him for months now, but the lady who will keep him does more of set nap times so I'm really worried about him not being able to fall asleep.  She said she usually puts them down around 9 and wakes them after an hour.  Then puts them down around 1 and lets them nap as long as 2 hours if they will.  I am not as concerned about the morning because he will have to wake early for me to go to work, so it will be close to his A time.  However, if she wakes him at 10, that only leaves a 3hr A time before that second nap. So, how do I handle this?  There's not really anything I can do I guess.  Do you think he will learn to adjust?  I have never done set nap times, so I am extremely nervous he will never nap there!!

Another concern...Let's say he cries and cries and won't go to sleep for her.  I know she can't spend a lot of time in with him having 3 other Los and I don't want her to let him just stay in there by himself crying.  So, What do you think is best....getting him up and missing the nap, or letting him sleep elsewhere?  I have worked hard not to let him sleep anywhere except his crib (with the exception of the occasional AP car ride for the CN).  I know with some of the other babies there, they will sleep in her arms or in a bouncy chair.  Would it be best to tell her just to let him up if he won't sleep and try again later, or let him nap somewhere else? 

I know things won't be perfect, but I want to try my hardest to not go too backwards with what I've done so far when I go back to work.  As you probably tell, I am a perfectionist and I'm having a TOUGH time thinking about leaving him and worrying about him not adjusting there.  I really do appreciate your support and advice!!!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

How are you getting on?  When my LO was happy in between naps and only cried when I tried putting him to bed, he was UT, but how has the A time increase gone?

Regarding nursery, it's a really tricky one.  You do have to accept to a certain extent that things are going to go wonky for a while, and just know that they'll have to catch up on days when they're at home.  What do you think about moving to set naps in readiness to match the childminders?  And will she wake him early from that first nap if you ask her to (I would have thought so, surely, so that she can get the other nap in - you are paying her after all and she'll want your LO to nap in the afternoon too I'd have thought?).  You might well find that he's more tired there and will take a decent nap after only 3 hours A, but if he won't, you could ask her to cap the morning nap at 45 minutes and see if that helps?

In terms of settling for sleep, I've honestly found that my LOs have done very different things at nursery to at home.  So he may well completely surprise you.  If the worst came to the worst though, I'd probably ask her to AP a nap.  My youngest napped in the buggy or bouncy chair at nursery quite often (or on the floor), or would be sshh patted to sleep, or have someone sit with him with a hand on him til he fell asleep - all things I never did at home - and it never affected his sleep with me.  My eldest's first nursery only used big Silvercross prams to put the babies to sleep - they used to bounce them to sleep for every nap.  It never affected her ability to sleep independently at home

I think they get that the rules are different when they're at someone else's house, and as long as your childminder keeps trying the cot then he should get used to is as he settles in. 

[Mom2012]

Well, he has been doing better at BT.  I have stopped rubbing his back and now just place my hand on his back.  He went straight to sleep the last 2 nights, but he had more NWs.   He was only waking once to eat but two nights ago he woke around midnight and then 3:15 to eat.  Last night he woke at 9:30, 12:30, and then 3:45 to eat.  My DH went in the times he woke before feedings and also would just put his hand on his back until he was asleep.  He was maybe in there 30min each time with him.  He didn't go straight to sleep tonight, but he actually didn't cry.  I waited for him to lay down and then put my hand next to him while he fell asleep.  So I think we are making progress!  I'm just not sure why he had those NWs.

I hadn't seen any changes with the A time increase until today.  He had actually been sleeping for 50min but I had to wake him in order to pick up DS1 from the sitter.  I couldn't believe he was finally sleeping and I had to wake him!!!! 

Thank you so much for the encouraging words about napping at the sitters.  You made me feel so much better.  Hopefully he will surprise me and do better than I think.  I am taking him tomorrow morning for a few hours to start adjusting.  I'll let you know how it goes.

I asked her again about the nap times.  It seems like she is doing a little earlier now for some reason. She has kept one of the boys this summer so I think she is doing it based off his schedule.  She said he's doing nap 1 at 8:30 for about 30-45min.  Then nap 2 around 12:30.  So now I'm worried he won't be tired for that first nap.  He has been waking around 6 now so that gives him an A time of 2hr 30min as opposed to his usual 3hr 25min.  Do you think he will learn to adjust to such a shorter time?  I'm hoping I can talk to her more and see if she can put him down a little bit later. 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

You could always see how he does with the earlier nap and if it doesn't work then suggest she try a later one? If you warn her that it's quite early for your LO but give it a go I think it'd then be fair enough to then say "well, we tried it but it didn't work..." and see if she'll do a later nap for your LO? I'm lucky that the nurseries I've used have been very flexible, butI do think that if you're paying someone to care for your child then ensuring they get some sleep falls into the basic care category, so I wouldn't be afraid to be firm about what your LO needs if what she does isn't working for him.

In the meantime it sounds like you're making good progress at night, well done! And it sounds like naps are getting there too I'd stick with that A time for a bit longer and if his naps start to shorten again, add another 10/15 minuted A time.

[Mom2012]

He went today for a few hours to start letting him get used to being there and he did great!!  She only had him today and not the other babies, so I asked her to put him down for his nap at his regular time.  She told me he seemed really tired 15min earlier so she went ahead and put him down.  To my surprise, he went right to sleep!!!!  I was nervous he would be UT since it was a little early, but he slept an hour.  That's not his usual length (usually just a little longer) but I would say him going to sleep is a celebration!

I am going to talk to her and see about trying to follow my schedule first and see how it goes.  Hopefully she will be ok with that.  If he would go right to sleep like he did today then I wouldn't think she would have a problem with it. 

I stuck with the increased A time today after the 1hr nap and he napped 1hr 5 min for his second nap!  I am going to stick with that time a bit and see how he continues to do.

In your opinion, what should his A time be before BT?  When he does about a 30min nap, I usually do BF before bed at 2hr 40min (usually takes 30min) so I'm aiming for BT to be about 3hr 10min after that second nap.  That had been working pretty well lately, but yesterday it took him longer to settle for BT. He didn't cry but he almost didn't seem tired enough.  I'm wondering since he took a 50min nap yesterday verses 30min if he needed a longer A time.  So, today he did a longer nap so should I do BT a little later? 

Today:
WU: 6:15
Nap 1: 9:25-10:25 (A time 3hr 10min)
Nap 2: 2:10-3:15 (A time 3hr 45min)

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That's fantastic that he did so well at the childminders - that must be a huge relief for you  And it sounds like the new A times are working too!

I would aim for around 3hr 45 again after a decent second nap, and 3hr 20ish after a short nap. Or you could do a set BT of 7pm and just bring it forward by 20-30 minutes if naps are bad

[Mom2012]

I didn't get your reply until after BT so I did about the same A time as before and he took about 30min to go to sleep. He didn't cry though but just didn't seem tired. He seems tired and relaxed while BF before bed (I don't let him fall asleep though) but it's like as soon as he gets in bed he's more awake. So you think the longer A time before bed will help with that?

Since it's about 35min later than what I've been doing, Would I need to increase in 10min increments  over a few days or just go ahead and go to later BT?

So last night I decided to not put my hand on his back at all and keep my hand on the mattress. He fell 3 times and bumped his head so I did check him and rub his head a little to let him know I was there. But then went right back to hand on the mattress. He touched my hand some but actually fell asleep without touching me. Yay!! I thought that since he's not needing me as much to fall asleep that NWs would stop but he still woke. The first time was at 10:30 but he actually went back to sleep in 10min!! He hasn't done that on his own since way before teething and pulling up started so huge accomplishment!! He then woke again at 12:45 and was pulling up and down but not really crying so I left him to it until 45 min later when he strayed crying a lot. I decided to feed earlier than normal in hopes he would sleep until WU but he woke early at 5:15. He didn't cry so left him and he fell back asleep but only for 10min.

Do you think the NWs could maybe be UT from the early BT? 

So tonight do you think I should keep my hand on the mattress another night or go ahead and take it out?