3-2 Transition and now NWs and EW

[Mom2012]

My LO turned 6 mo one week ago.  I know we are going through the 3-2 transition right now.  I have been trying to extend his A times closer to 3 hrs for a while now.  He was doing 2hr 40min A time before his first nap and then 2hr 45min before his second nap.  He had been doing around 30min for his second nap for a while now, so yesterday I decided to push his a time before that nap by 10min so now it is at 2hr 55min. That resulted in a 1hr 15min nap yesterday, so I was excited about that. 

The problem with our transition has been that his second nap is almost always too short, leaving me with needing to do a third nap.  That then pushes our day back some because he resists a CN unless I can give him a full a time. I have a hard time doing EBT instead of late CN because I also have a 2yo and I wait on DH to get home from work to help my oldest so I can BF and do BT with my LO.  So if DH can't get home early enough, I attempt the late CN and if he refuses then I do BT as soon as DH is home. If we do the CN, then I struggle figuring out how long to keep him up before putting to bed after a CN.  I have tried as long as 2hr and as short as 1 hr.  I don't know if that time is causing the NW and EW.

He started having EWs Saturday.  Usually around 5.   My DH has tried resettling him, but I usually end up BF.  He won't go back to sleep in his crib after that, so I have held him once he falls asleep BF two of the days just so he would get more sleep.  I'm sure that's probably not good. I don't normally do that.  I read some on here and thought that maybe the EW could be from needing more A time in the morning, so this morning I pushed that time 10min.  Well, he napped 35 min!  That's usually his decent nap.  It's usually 1hr 30 min, but the last few days it's been a little shorter.  So now our day will be crazy because he woke at 5:45 and took a 35min nap by 9:05am! 

I will post the last 2 days so you can have an idea of what's going on.  I'm not sure if I need to go back to the a time I was doing before I pushed it today, or do I just hold it and see if he adjusts in a few days?  I should also add that I am expecting his first two teeth to cut through, so I believe that is what was causing the extra NWs the last few nights.  I gave him Tylenol last night and he ended up sleeping much better, so I do think that's part of the problem.  However, even before the extra NWs he almost always wakes about an hour after going to bed.  He cries out to where DH or I think we need to go in there.  He usually settles pretty quickly once we go in there.  He will usually do that maybe 2 or 3 more times within the next hour or two. Before teething, he would then sleep a decent stretch and wake around 7.

So I'm wondering where to go from here?  Do I need to adjust any a times, or keep them where I have them? What do you think is causing the EWs and how should I handle them?  Thanks so much!

Monday:
WU-6:50 (He woke around 5:20 and DH got him back to sleep but woke again at 6.  I BF and then he fell asleep in my arms until 6:50)
E: 8:00 (top off feed since fell asleep after first feeding)
A:a time = 2hr 45min - He took longer to fall asleep than normal.
S: 9:35 - 11:00 (1.25)
E: 11:05
A: a time=2hr 40min
S: 1:40 - 2:15 (35min)
E: 3:00
A: a time=2hr 35min
S: 4:50-5:30 (40min)
E: 5:30
A:low key a time
E:6:35
S:7:20
*NWs-8:15, 9:30, 10:45 (fed), 2:15, 4:15, 5(fed)

Tuesday:
WU- 6:55 (He woke at 5 and I tried BF and then putting him back in his crib.  He only stayed asleep 10 min.  When I picked him up, he fell asleep so I just held him in rocking chair until 6:55.)
E: 7:00
A:a time=2hr 45min
S: 9:40 - 10:55 (1.15)
E: 11:00
A: a time=2hr 50min
S: 1:45 - 3:00 (1. 15)
E: 3:00
A: a time=2hr 45min
S: tried for CN at 5:45 (We had a bad thunderstorm last night.  I got him to sleep at 5:55 but 5 min later the thunder woke him.  Then I got him back to sleep again and he slept 10min when the thunder woke him again.  I just decided that time to get him up since it was 6:10pm.  I waited for DH to get home then got him ready for bed.)
E: 6:25
S: 7:00
*NWs: 7:30, 8:30, 9:45 (decided to try Tylenol for teething and then BF) He then slept until 5:45.  I fed him but he would not go back to sleep so we started our day.

So Far Today:
WU: 5:45
E:5:50
A:a time=2hr 45min
S: 8:30-9:05 (35min)
E: 9:50
A:

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hello there and hugs for the EWs and NWs. The 3-2 is so tricky - we really struggled with that one, so you're not alone.

Looking at your routine I'd guess that your LO might be a bit OT from pushing A times. It's common during transitions If pushing his first A resulted in a shorter nap, that's a big clue for me. You're right that pushing the first A can help with EWs,  but being OT by bedtime can also cause them  I would also guess your second nap on Monday was OT too. My son used to be good at taking a first nap, but then shorten his second A if the first A was long.

How about something like :

WU: 7
A: 2hrs 40 max
S: Hopefully 1hr 30 @ 9.40-10.10
A: 2hrs 20
S: Hopefully this would give a longer nap of 1hr 30ish again  @ 12.30 - 2
A: 2hrs 15
S: Aim for an UT cn at 4.15 - 4.45
A: 2hrs 15
BT: asleep by 7.

If that goes ok you can work on increasing your second A again and try and get rid of the cn. Do you want to try that for 3 days and see how you go? We should be able to tell after that if those A times are now too short or what. I also remember that A times can increase quite quickly at 6 months, so it might be that you need to go the other way,  but that first nap shortening on a longer A time says you've got that one as long as it can go for now.

What do you think?

[Mom2012]

Thank you for your reply!  It is hard to tell the difference between OT and UT behavior to me.  I can see what you are saying that he might be OT due to the increase in A times.  I did go back 10min this morning and got him to sleep with a 2hr 40min A time for his first nap, so I'm crossing my fingers he sleeps better.  He did wake early this morning at 5:50, but he slept a little better last night with 3 NWs. Although yesterday's naps were terrible.  Three 35min naps and he slept in my arms after nursing for 40 min once.  I guess that's a sign of OT if he keeps falling asleep nursing when he didn't before??

I am nervous to push his second A time back that much though.  He used to take a decent second nap, but when he stopped I had to push his A time.  Then he would do good for a few days and then start doing short naps again, so I would push it another 10min until he started doing a little better.  So, I thought this was a sign to push it again.  Are you possibly suggesting to decrease it for now though due to him being OT and needing to catch up on sleep?  I am unsure of how to fix OT so maybe that's what you meant.  I am concerned if I try too early I won't be able to get him to sleep.  That's how it always is for the CN.  He just doesn't seem tired enough, but maybe I'm misreading him and he's OT.

[Mom2012]

I guess my LO was tired yesterday because he would have just kept napping if I didn't wake him.  That NEVER happens.  I pushed the morning A time back 10min.  I decided to just watch him for sleepy cues for the second A time to see when I should put him down.  I ended up taking him in his room at 2hr40min (10min earlier than what I was doing).  He has never done two 2 hr naps but I thought I'd give it a try.  Well, BT was a disaster.  I think I might have waited too long to BF before bed because he was falling asleep nursing.  Then when I tried putting him down, it was like he caught his second wind or something because he didn't seem tired.  He didn't cry but was awake for a good 45min.  Then he started to cry and scream so I thought maybe he was still hungry so I fed again and finally went to sleep at 8 (so now it was a long A time).

WU: 5:55
Nap 1: 8:30-10:30 (A time was 2hr 35min - went right to sleep; I think this is a good A time)
Nap 2: 1:25-3:25 (A time was 2hr 55min - took him about 10min to fall asleep this time)
BF before bed: 6:05-6:35
BT: 8:00
*No NWS!  BUT he did wake at 5:20.  I tried feeding him and treating it like a NW, but he just won't go back to sleep when I put him in bed.  I'm pretty sure if I would have just let him sleep in my arms he would have, but I'm afraid that will just become something he thinks will happen every morning if I let him do it.  So we got up for the day once I realized he wouldn't go back to sleep in bed.

So, where did I go wrong you think???  Was two 2 hr naps too much?  Should I have tried for an earlier BT?  I was aiming for an A time of no longer than 3hr, but was a little later than I planned. 

How should I handle the EW?  He usually wakes crying so I feel like I need to go in there.  Once I'm in there, he seems to get worse though.  Then I don't know whether to feed or not.  It's been a week now with EWs and I'm just not sure I'm doing the right thing to try to correct it.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Aawww, sorry BT didn't go well last night, especially after you'd had such good naps! I suspect he was OT by BT cos that last A was very long. I probably would have aimed for a BT of 6.30ish, but hey, that was yesterday and today is a new day!

With the EWs I had an Earliest Wake  Up time in my mind for my LO, and at 6 months I would try and feed / resettle before that, and get him up after that. I think if you're effectively treating the EW like a NW til it's time to get up, you should be fine in terms of discouraging further NWs  (as far as you can with your behaviour, anyway!).

The other thing is that there's a growth spurt at 6 months too, so he could genuinely be waking hungry.  Have you started solids yet? That can disturb nights too for a little while.  It's a tough time, 6 months...

[Mom2012]

Yes, I did start solids a little over 2 weeks ago.  He has had rice cereal and oatmeal so far.  I didn't realize that could disturb his sleep.  He is still waking early but has had two mornings where he woke closer to 6:45.  However, he has been doing his NF at a different time.  So maybe he is genuinely hungry.  Last night he ate at 11:30 and again at 4:30 but then slept until almost 7. 

I'm still struggling with naps though.  I kept the A times consistent for a few days to see how he did.  He of course only had those good naps that one day.  He has been doing a decent first nap, about a 30min second nap, and 30min CN.  Yesterday, his first nap was also 30min though, so all day was 30min naps.  I decided today to see how he acted around the normal A time I've been doing.  He didn't seem as tired, so I kept him up 10min longer today.  Hopefully, he will nap better. 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, let me know how you get on. If that doesn't help you could post your EASY for a couple of days and see if we can figure out if any of it is routine related. Has the 30 minute second nap started since you reduced that A time?

The eating can cause disturbed nights for a bit as their little tummies are getting used to new foods.  It can also trigger developmental type changes as the new tastes and textures are a whole new type of stimulation which can set their brains off, processing it all   So you might find things just calm down by themselves in a couple of weeks anyway.

[Mom2012]

Thanks for the info on starting solid foods. 

I went ahead and added the 10min back today, but he still did a 35min nap.  I will give the new A time a few days and then post our EASY so you can see if maybe I need to tweak something.  With the A times he is doing now, we would be able to do only 2 naps if he could extend the second.  Instead, we are having to fit in a catnap because the time from the second nap to BT is way too long.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Ok, yeah, let's take a look in a few days. It might just be a case of trying a few things and seeing what works 

[Mom2012]

So now my LO is almost 6.5mo and we are at about 2hr 50min A time before the first nap and about 2hr 55min before the second nap.  He always naps around 35min for the second nap, so I have a hard time figuring out the right A time before a CN.  I read to try about 15min shorter, so I have been trying around 2hr 35min, but he takes much longer to fall asleep for the CN.

I first tried increasing to these times last Wednesday, but after your suggestion on him maybe being OT I decided to drop back the next day (decreased by 10min).  That was the day he for some strange reason took two 2hr naps. (That was a one time only day!) Since that time seemed good Thursday, I stuck with it  for 4 days.  His morning nap those days was 2hr Thursday, 2hr Friday, 1hr 20min Saturday, 34min Sunday.  His second nap was 2hr Thursday, then Friday-Sunday was around 35min.  His EWs were getting a little better so I decided to add the 10min back to see if it would help lengthen those naps.  So, here is the last 3 days with the new A times:

Since I just started solids, he is doing oatmeal about 1hr after morning BF and trying veggies about 1hr after the lunch BF.

Also, I used to keep him up longer after CNs but you had thought it was too long before BT and maybe causing him to be OT, so I have tried doing a much shorter A time.  This has helped with the BT battle a lot.  Although, he seems to pretty much fall asleep nursing and then I put him down, so I'm not sure if this is going to create a future problem.

Monday:
Night before- BT: 7:05; NWs: 10:30, 11:30 (NF), 4 (just wouldn’t settle so NF again at 4:30)
WU: 6:55
E: 7:00
A: A time=2hr 50min
S: 9:45-11:20 (1hr 35min)
E: 11:25
A: A time=2hr 55min
S: 2:15-2:50 (35min)
E: 2:55
A: A time= 3hr (He took about 20min to go fall asleep)
S: 5:50-6:20 (30min)
E: 6:20
E: 7:00
A: A time before BT=1hr 15min
S: 7:35
NW: 8:30, 9:45, 4:25(NF)-tried putting him back in bed and just would not settle so BF again and had to hold some before he would stay asleep in his bed

Tuesday:
WU: 7:30
E: 7:30
A: A time=2hr 45min
S: 10:15-11:30 (1hr 15min)
E: 11:35
A: 2hr 55min
S: 2:25-3:00 (35min)
E: 3:05
A: A time=2hr 45min (He took about 15min to fall asleep)
S: 5:45-6:15 (30min)
E: 6:15
E: 7:00
A: A time before BT=1hr 20min
S: 7:35
NW: 8:20, 8:50, 10 (NF), 4:10(NF)

Wednesday:
WU: 6:50
E: Wouldn’t eat when he woke so waited until 7:30
A: A time= 2hr 50min
S: 9:40-11:05 (1hr 25min)
E: 11:10
A: A time=2hr 55min
S: 2:00-2:40 (40min)
E: 2:50
A: A time=2hr 40min (I waited 5 more min today to start trying for this nap and he only took about 5min to fall asleep!)
S: 5:20-5:50 (30min)
E: 5:50
E: 6:55
A: A time before BT=1hr 35min
S: 7:25
NW: 9:30, 11:30 (12:00-NF), 5:30 (NF-we both fell back asleep in the rocking chair until 7)

Let me know what you think.  I really want to be able to do 2 naps, but he can't sleep long enough for the second one.  Our A times are long enough to where we could do only 2 if he could just start sleeping better! Thanks!!!

[Mom2012]

Well he just woke from a 1hr nap. Also, for the first 30min of his nap he kept turning his head and pushing up like he was going to wake up. He just seemed to have a hard time settling. Is that an UT nap you think?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

OK, so here's what I think is going on:

I think he probably was OT originally, and when you reduced his A times he was able to catch up - hence the 2 x 2hr naps, and why, over the next few days, his nap time slowly descreased: he was catching up on sleep and the A times were then a bit short for him cos he was now well rested.  We had this a lot with my LO, which is why I recognise it

I think your second nap is probably UT now, so you can try increasing the A just before that nap.  My littlest LO would pretty much need a full A time after a short UT nap and it looks like that's going on here with you too, where he's taking a while to go to sleep for the cn, except where you slightly extend the A before it.

Often you'd start with increasing the first A, but seeing as the last time you did that he shortened his nap, I'd assume that's pretty much where it needs to be (unless he's changed in the meantime of course!).  So for you, I'd try increasing that second A time by 15 minutes and see where that gets you.  You might have to wing it a bit with 2 or 3 naps, depending on whether an A time push results in a longer second nap or not.  I'd try and keep his last A to 3hrs - 3hr15 max if he does 2 decent naps, or around 1hr 30 if he does a short second nap, if that's working better for you at BT.  It won't always work out that way, but it's something to aim for

Finally, my LO used to fall asleep during his bedtime breastfeed for a long time too.  I always made sure I winded him quite vigorously so he woke up again, and read a story or sang a song, even if he was drowsy. Sometimes he was only awake for a minute or so between his feed and going into the cot, but he did always go in awake and we never had any problems with that.

Let me know how you get on

[Mom2012]

Your thoughts make sense.  I do think the second nap is UT also.  I will go ahead and increase that A time today.  I usually do 10min, but do you think 15min is better? 

You mentioned normally starting with the first A time.  That nap is longer but lately is more around 1hr 15min.  Yesterday it was only 1hr and he moved around a lot in hid sleep when normally he doesn't, so I'm wondering if that A time is now too short also.  I went ahead and put him down at the regular time this morning (we were about 5min late this morning though) to see how he did.  If he still doesn't quite make it to 1hr 30min would you suggest increasing that one also?  If so, do I do both at the same time, or do one for a few days and then the other?

Thank you for your time and helping me figure this out!  Hopefully he will start doing better soon.  We started the day early again today at 5:55 so hopefully we will do okay today with naps.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

You could always try increasing his first A again and see how he goes.  I'd only do one at a time though. You might find he's tired enough after a longer first A to sleep better for his second nap anyway. If he ends up shortening his first nap after an A time increase, you could try keeping his second A the same, since it may already be a bit short and that way you can test that theory too, if you know what I mean? In that if he then sleeps better without shortening that second A then probably it would mean that after a decent first nap that second A needs to be longer.

You can increase A's in 10 or 15 minute increments - whatever you feel comfortable with 

[Mom2012]

We seem to be getting worse!! Still waking early, having NWs, and can't seem to figure out the right A times.  I did increase the second A time last Friday by 15min, and he napped 1hr 25min!  I was so excited that day because he had also done a 2hr nap that morning.  I thought surely he would sleep better but he still took over an hour to get to sleep, had NWs, and EW.  After that increase in A time, he went back to naps around 45min the next few days.  His morning nap has also been getting shorter (as short as 45min-1hr).  The last two days though his morning nap was shorter (less than one hour).  I tried to keep him up almost his full A time to see and then he did a longer second nap I'm guessing because he was really tired.  I haven't increased the first A time, so maybe I should?

Most nights he is only getting 10 hours of sleep because he takes almost 2hours to go to sleep and then wakes early.  So when he wakes early, I feel like he is too tired for me to extend his first A time.  The other morning he actually went back to sleep after BF at 3:30am and slept until almost 7:30.  I was completely shocked because he has been doing EWs since Mother's Day.  Well that day he didn't seem tired at all for the normal A time, so I tried keeping him up an extra 10min.  He still didn't seem quite as tired but I tried anyways but it resulted in an early nap.  So on mornings he sleeps better do I extend but don't when he doesn't get much sleep?  I'm confused!

I am also wondering if maybe I need to focus on sleep training instead of figuring out his A times.  Maybe that's where my problem really is.  I tried shh/pat right before he was 4mo when I transitioned him from napping in the swing to his crib.  We were doing pretty good, but once he started not going right to sleep and doing short naps, I got more focused on just getting him to sleep rather than shh/pat.  So I guess I fell in the trap of holding him more.  He doesn't fall asleep in my arms, but I do have to hold him for a while before laying him down.  And at night me or my DH have to pick up him for him to calm down and also hold for a while.  Now, as I have told you, I have fallen into the trap of nursing to sleep for NWs and EWs.  I will let him nurse, fall asleep, and either carefully put him down or hold him to sleep if the EW is after 5am because he will NOT go back in his bed then.  So do you think I should focus instead in sleep training??