3-2 Transition and now NWs and EW

[Erin M]

Just had a read through and it sounds like you're making some really great progress.  I'd say there's two things I'd probably point out -- for us (and my youngest is 4 now so this is going back for me!) - on the days when we started pushing A times consistently, we did often get those early evening wakings, which were really just OT wakings -- but don't necessarily shorten your A time, it really could just be your LO getting used to the new A times - it seemed like there was always an adjustment period for us.  You really do seem to need to get rid of that third nap, so sometimes you just need to push through the wakings and let them get used to the new A times.  The other thing is that teething and developmental stuff (but especially teething!) caused EW with all of mine, so that definitely could be one of your problems right now as well. 

[Mom2012]

Thank you for taking a look. Maybe the EWs are occurring because of teething or him learning to crawl. I guess only time will tell. It has now been a little over a month since it started.  I agree we definitely need to get rid of the third nap. Most days he does 2 naps but when he wakes early and doesn't nap well, we have to have a third because BT is just way too early. Yesterday I did the late CN for just 20min and got him to sleep at 7:20. It is 5:30 am now and he's already up! If he isn't crying how long do I leave him in there? I want to nurse him to sleep so bad every morning so he will go back to sleep but I know I shouldn't. That's the only time he's ever gone back to sleep after EW.

I do think the second nap is usually UT. My instincts tell me to try increasing A time before that nap but was worried to. Do you think I should try or keep times where they are a bit longer? The last time I increased was 6 days ago when I increased the first A time before his morning nap.

[Mom2012]

With the EW, I haven't tried feeding again because I fed around midnight.  That tends to be the time he wakes to eat. Should I try feeding and putting back to sleep even if he's not crying. Or do I continue to just leave him in there since he's not crying? I know for sure if I were to go in there to try shh/pat he would just cry because he always cries more when in for NWs.

There were two nights he actually slept later and got a full 12hr sleep and the difference was his middle of the night BF. He happened to sleep and not wake until 3ish one morning and 4ish the next. He then was able to eat and go back to sleep until around 6:30-7. I've considers trying put him back to sleep around the midnight time he wakes but was worried those other two nights were just random and he is truly hungry around midnight. And thoughts on that??

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Tbh I would have thought that a 7 month old could go til 2 or 3 at least before needing a feed,  though I always found that very hard to judge with my two. My daughter was going all night without a feed at this age,  and my son was on one feed at 3-5am, but some LOs need a night feed for longer.

I would leave him in the morning  (or for any nw) if he isn't crying.  If he starts I'd wait til he sounds like he really needs you,  and then try and resettle the same as you would at night, up until a consistent Get Up time which you think is acceptable to start the day.

And if your instincts are to increase his second A then there's no harm in trying it - just keep everything else the same so you can tell how he's getting on with it.

[Erin M]

I would leave him in the morning  (or for any nw) if he isn't crying.  If he starts I'd wait til he sounds like he really needs you,  and then try and resettle the same as you would at night, up until a consistent Get Up time which you think is acceptable to start the day.

I do agree with this.

WRT to the night feedings, there's a lot of variation - I had one that just had a dream feed at 7 months, one that needed an earlier feed at that age, and one that was feeding multiple times a night at that age -- I'd more look at how the feeds are going - is he taking full feeds?  Have you tried resettling without a feed?  (Sorry if you've answered these things already, just coming late to the thread...)

[Mom2012]

I haven't had time to sit down and write the last few days, but I'm glad to say we have made some good progress!  Wednesday night I took my hand off his back and laid it next to him on the mattress. That night and the next two nights he held my hand or finger for a bit.  Then Saturday night I tried to let go before he fell asleep and he was fine.  Tonight he didn't even touch my hand and went to sleep on his own    I am still in the room with him, but I am happy with this progress so far! 

Also, The night I started making the GW step (Wednesday), he stopped waking for that midnight feeding.  Every night since then wakes sometime between 9-11 but just fusses a little so I don't go in and he goes back to sleep pretty quickly.  Then he has been waking around 4, one night around 2. He usually doesn't start off crying but then he does so I go in to feed. Wednesday night he actually didn't wake until morning (no NF at all).  So I guess he kinda solved the midnight feeding problem for me!

I am struggling with how to handle the next feeding when he has a NF around 4.  I like to follow EAS and have always fed pretty much right when he wakes up in the morning and after naps (unless the nap is really short), but if he eats at 4 then he is not hungry when he wakes up.  I have been waiting until it has been about 4 hours since the NF but he still doesn't seem hungry and take a full feed because he had a full feeding at 4. I hate to wait even longer though because it then pushes back solids (which I do an hour after Bf) and its almost nap time.  Am I just supposed to kinda do what I've been doing and our day be a little off until he drops that feed?   

Also, I think I am guilty of feeding him when he might not need it.  I am assuming when he wakes at 4 that he has to be hungry so I feed before trying to resettle.  Since I am doing GW, I am worried to try to resettle at 4 and then realize he's hungry and think I can't PU to feed after trying to resettle.  Also, since I don't like to feed so close to WU, I would rather go ahead and feed when he first wakes around 4 rather than wait for him to cry to where he needs me, so I feel like I rush in before I probably should.  SO for the 4ish NW, would you also wait until it sounds like he needs me, try to resettle, or just go ahead and feed? 

I did end up adding 10min to the A time before the second nap.  After I said my instincts were telling me to, that day I didn't increase and he refused to take that nap.  He has never done that for the second nap.  The next day I went ahead and increased 10min and he slept 45min.  Day 2 of the increase he slept 1hr 10min, but today (day 3) he only slept 35min.  I just can't seem to figure out that second nap.  His first nap has been around 1hr 20min so that one is still okay.  I guess I'll give him more time to maybe adjust to that increase.  You think?

 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Great update!  I'm so pleased the GW is going well and that it's fixed your midnight feed

I remember that 4am feed causing us issues too.  If it's any consolation my LO wasn't having it for long before he started sleeping through, so hopefully that'll be the case for you too.  WRT the morning feed, what do you think about swapping his solids and milk feed round for a bit to help address that?  You could do solids soon after WU as a top up snack, and then a milk feed an hour or so later?  That might make it easier to fit them both in, and when he starts sleeping through you can go back to offering a milk feed first.  Or alternatively, could you keep the milk feed later in his A time as you're doing, but offer the solids after his first nap as a snack? 

The other thing I started doing at this point was to reduce the size of the night feed by feeding for less time, so he's only getting a snack feed and not a full feed at 4.  That will help him to be more hungry in the morning too, and help him have more calories in the day and less at night, which is where you need to be to get rid of that night feed.  If he's still not hungry 4 hours after a NF, then he possibly doesn't really need it - or certainly doesn't need a full feed, so I'd hold back and see if he self settles like you do at 11ish, and if you really think you do need to feed, then just offer a small one.  You can gradually reduce the amount of time you feed for over a few days if you think that will work better.

I would try another 10 minutes before that second nap, too.  If he was refusing it and is now sleeping 35 - 60 minutes that probably means an A time was the way to go, and he just needs a bit more to get to a decent nap length. 

It sounds like you're reading him really well and it's all paying off

[Mom2012]

Ok, so I have a confession to make: I have been letting him nurse to sleep for the NF  I know you said I don't need to with GW so I don't confuse him but I just don't see how I'll be able to keep him awake with it being in the middle of the night.  And especially now that the NF is around 4 (this morning was 5), I am TERRIFIED of EWs again.  I guess I'm worried he will not go back to sleep if I wake him when nursing and we will be stuck with EW.  Your suggestion is really good, but I will have to stop letting him fall asleep if I am going to gradually shorten that NF.  I guess I will work on that!

So I spoke too soon on the first nap.  This morning he did a 40min first nap.  He is definitely sleeping much more at night now (12hrs + depending on how the day before was for naps). Do you think instead of increasing the a time before the second nap again, should I try increasing the first a time and see if that helps all around?

How long should his two naps be at this age, now 7.5mo?  I am having a hard time seeing how to fit two good naps in when I keep increasing the A times.  Currently, I am laying him down for the first nap with A time of 3hr 5min and the second nap at 3hr 15min.  So take a look at Saturday, a day he took somewhat two decent naps:

WU: 7:00
Nap 1: 10:05-11:25 (1hr 23min nap with A time of 3hr 5min)
Nap 2: 2:42-3:50 (1hr 8min nap with A time of 3hr 17min)
BT: 7:10 (A time of 3hr 20min)

That was just close to a 12hr day, but if he were to nap better for the second nap, it would push BT later.  I thought I read he should do about two 1hr 30min naps, but that would make BT late if so.  Also, if I add more A time, then that makes BT later also if he naps well.  So what am I aiming for?

[Mom2012]

Update:  yesterday I went ahead and increased the first A time by 10min to help with the first nap. He did about 1hr 20min so that's good. But he still did a 30min nap in the afternoon. Today his first nap was 1hr 10min. Do you think I should also increase the next A time or give him time to adjust to the first A time increase since it's just day 2 for that?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I'd stick with just the first A increase for the full 3 days and then increase the second cos sometimes it takes a few days for the tiredness to build up and carry over to that second nap. 

Glad the first A increase went well 

[Mom2012]

Well I am at a loss on what to do about this second nap!  Since my last post I did increase the second awake time but out of the 5 days I increased, the longest he napped was 1hr 5min.  The other days ranged from 30-45min.  He then started taking a shorter first nap, so I increased that time and stuck with just that increase for a few days.  The first nap started getting back to around 1hr 20min, which is what he usually does now.  On the day I increased that morning time, I was actually about 10min late getting him down for the second nap and he actually slept an hour.  So I was thinking maybe he needed another increase.  Well, I waited the full 3 days for the first increase so it would not make him OT with increasing both, then I increased the second awake time.  It's only been two days, but both days he has napped around 35min.  He does not seem like he's OT to me though because he doesn't show any signs of being tired early on during his awake time.  Also, before I did this recent increase in awake time he started taking longer to fall asleep.  Since I added the extra 10min, he is going to sleep quicker so I thought that meant it would be a good time. 

Even though he was napping around 1hr 20min in the morning and 30min in the afternoon, he was actually getting at least 12hr night sleep because I would do EBT.  He has only been waking once (most nights) to eat.  He is getting ready for another tooth to come in and just last night he pulled up to stand in his crib.  So I know those two things can be a factor.  However, last night he was up for almost 2hrs and woke early.  Therefore, with the way he naps I have to do a CN or else EBT would be really EBT!!  Can you take a look at the last few days and see what you think I could do to help?  He just turned 8 months today.

Friday
WU: 6:50
Nap 1: 10:15-11:25 (1hr 10min nap with A time of 3hr 25min - this was the 3rd day I had increased to that time)
Nap 2: 3:15-3:45 (30min nap with A time of 3hr 40min - I had tried at 3hr 25min to put him down like I had been doing for about a week and half but he had a hard time settling)
BT: 6:40 (A time of 2hr 55min)
NW: none until 5:10 (NF and back to sleep)

Saturday:  We weren't home all day so naps didn't go so great
WU: 7:20
Nap 1: 10:50-11:40 (50min nap with A time of 3hr 30min - I really think this was shorter due to new surroundings at grandmother's house)
Nap 2: 3:20-3:50 (Had to nap in the car on the way home for 30min)
BT: 6:40 (A time of 2hr 50min)
NW: none until 4:45 (NF and back to sleep)

Sunday:
WU: 6:35
Nap 1: 10:00 - 11:15 (1hr 15min nap with A time of 3hr 25min)
Nap 2: 3:00 - 3:35 (35min nap with A time of 3hr 45in - 1st day increasing 10 min but took about 10min to settle)
BT: 6:30 (A time of 2hr 55min)
NW: 12:15 - stood up in bed for the first time, cried for over an hour (I think because of tooth), I gave in and fed at 2 and went back to sleep (which I don't do normally but we were all exhausted)

Monday:
WU: 5:45
Nap 1: 9:10-10:30 (1hr 20min nap with A time of 3hr 25min)
Nap 2: 2:05 - 2:40 (35min nap with A time of 3hr 35min - 2nd day with increasing 10min and went right to sleep)
I guess I'll try for a CN because with the awake time of about 2 hr 45 min I have been doing before bed after his 30min nap, that would make BT at 5:25. Seems really early to me?? Also hard since DH isn't home from work so I've got DS1 who needs a bath and dinner.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hmmm.. I wonder if he could do with another little push on that first A?  Maybe aim for 3hrs 40 if you think he can handle it?  And then second A of 3hrs 30 for now?  I really wouldn't change too much - we had very long NWs with the big developmental stuff so I'd try and hang on in there for a couple of weeks if that continues.  Generally, waking happy from a 35 minute nap sounds UT to me though, so if his nights are OK, you could try increasing that second A time again after a few days.  I'd also be careful not to change too much cos you're getting some very good nights (apart from the one with the long nw, which it sounds like could have been teeth / developmental), and that's actually a good sign that things are OK in the day.  You may find that if he naps much more that it starts to affect nights - it's all about getting the right balance.  Most LOs do better with more overnight sleep, but you've got to find what's right for you both.

WRT early bedtime, I pretty much always did a set BT of some time between 6.45 and 7.30, depending on what his outine was at various ages, and then an EBT just became whatever was set, minus 20-30 minutes, depending on how day sleep had been.  It meant some really long A times on occasion, but J could handle it as a one off.  He didn't tack on well though - only ever by half an hour at most - so that's why.  Maybe something to consider if you find yourself needing a very late CN or super early bedtime?

[Mom2012]

Well yesterday I decided to try to APOP a CN with a car ride but he wouldn't fall asleep. So we came home, fed, and tried for bed.  He took about 45min to go to sleep.  He was crying hysterically and was constantly trying to pull up to stand.  Since he just started doing this, he's not too good at it so was falling all over the place.  We had to take some steps backwards with GW because I had to kind of hold him through the crib rails at times to keep him from getting hurt.  He woke at 1:30am doing the same thing. I decided to go ahead and make that his NF. After that he slept until 5:40 and woke standing and laughing so we started our day. 

I feel like today we will have the same problem as yesterday due to the EW.  Not sure whether to try EBT or late CN.  Late CN was not successful yesterday so I'm leaning towards EBT.  I've noticed that if I feed him about 2hr 10min after the 30min nap and then try for bed, he goes to bed fairly quickly and those were the nights he slept without NWs until early morning feeding.  However, doing this would put me feeding him around 4:45 and then trying to put him in bed around 5:15.  Seems crazy early! So are you suggesting trying a longer awake time on days like this so that BT won't be so early? Whe. Would you suggest I do BT?

I can try increasing the first awake time and pulling back a little on the second one. But do you think it's okay to increase that first awake time even though he's getting less night sleep and waking early now?

I'm hoping once he's used to standing, we will get back on track!

[Mom2012]

Oh I should add...he's not waking happy from that short second nap. I thought that would mean OT but before I increased it by 10 min he had trouble settling and didn't seem tired. Now that I added it, he seems ready and goes right to sleep.

Today is almost identical to yesterday. He just woke crying after 37min. I don't really try resettling anymore because it never works. he gets so worked up when I go in his room. I also try to fit in a feeding since I feed again not too long after before BT, therefore I am afraid to spend too much time resettling.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

It's tricky cos of the developmental stuff - it's going to be hard not to end up with an OT LO cos of that, which you can't do anything about.  I would probably stick with a set BT of 6.45, and 6.15 - 6.30 as an EBT?  Otherwise your WU  is going to creep earlier and earlier.

On the second nap, if he's settling better after a bit more A, that probably does mean that was the right move.  Maybe you could increase it a bit more - I found with J that there would be an awkward point where he was up long enough to be grumpy after a short nap, but not tired enough to get past one sleep cycle. Another little A push usually sorted it. It's worth a go, just be ready to try it again later if it doesn't work, cos that could just be cos of the developmental stuff, or teeth.