5 month old-short naps since 4 months

[mommykay410]

Hi!  My LO is almost 5 1/2 months old and has been taking 30-40 minute naps for a little over a month now.  When she was younger she was on a good schedule...waking up at 8, yawning at 9 and falling asleep on her own in the crib for a good 2 hour nap, and continuing that 3 hour schedule the rest of the day usually going to sleep around 8.  Once she hit close to 4 months, she began waking around the 45 minute mark, and I would end up rocking her back to sleep for every nap.  Eventually the rocking got to a point where I could hardly put her down once she was asleep, so I decided to look in to sleep training ideas, which is what led me to The Baby Whisperer, since I am not interested in CIO methods. 
I started about 1 1/2 weeks ago using pupd and more often just shush/pat, and after a couple days she was able to fall asleep on her own again rather than me rocking her every time.  However, she still wakes up around the 30-40 minute mark.  If she would wake up crying at that point I know I should do shush/pat or pupd, but she usually wakes up and lays calmly for a few minutes and then starts talking to herself, or she poops and then is wide awake.  I don't want to intervene if she is content, but after 30+ minutes of talking to herself she eventually gets mad and starts to fuss, at which point I would go in.  A lot of the time though when I go in at that point she smiles at me and then just wants to play with my hand while I try to pat her.  So eventually I just get her up and feed her earlier than her scheduled time and restart the routine. 
Since I just recently read Tracy's book, I didn't realize that she should be on a 4 hour schedule, and I was probably not giving her long enough awake time either.  I have always been pretty good about watching for her sleep cues and putting her down at the right moment, so I started watching more closely again and she is now able to stay awake happily for at least 1.5 hours before she starts rubbing her eyes and fussing, at which point I immediately put her down because she gets overtired quickly and would have trouble falling asleep on her own.   
So I guess my main question is, what do I do when she wakes after 30 minutes and talks to herself or needs a diaper change? 
Any help anyone can give would be greatly appreciated!  I'm starting to get anxiety whenever it comes close to nap time 

[Kellyjs]

Hi and welcome. Sorry you haven't had a reply yet 

I want to say forts off is that I totally feel your pain, exact same thing happened to us too. Had short napping forever! It will get better hun, I promise as I'll walk you through it. If it makes you feel any better my DD loves her nap now!!

Would you mind posting your easy for me please? Ideally not what you're working towards but what the last day or two looked like for me? Helps immensely if I can be there with you 

Tracy's 4hr routine is really for around 4mo hun and related to feeding (bottle feeding really rather than BF as that's a little outdated now in the book). A times for a 5mo should be closer to 2.5hrs so if you're doing less than 2 I would definitely expect UT. Don't worry though, I did that too. Sleep cues start to get a bit unreliable at this age as they show signs even when they're bored, hungry or just need a change in scenery so it helps to have one eye on the clock too. Look forward to hearing from you xx

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[mommykay410]

Kellyjs, thank you for your reply and support!  I know it will get better at some point, I just hope that it is sooner rather than later.  Here was our schedule for the last two days:
Tuesday -
E 8:10a
A til 9:25a
S 9:30a-10:40a (asleep on own)
E 11:05a
A til 12:20p
S 12:30p-1:05p (asleep on own, pooped awake)
E 2:05p
A til 2:55p
S 3:00p-3:30p (asleep on own), 3:40-4:10 did shhpat/pupd
E 4:15p
A
E 6:20-6:50p
S 7:10p-1:45a (had to shhpat to sleep at 7)
Wednesday:
E 1:50a
S 2:25a-6:10a (left in crib)
E 7:00a
A til 7:55
S 8:05-9:15 (asleep on own)
E 10:00
A til 10:50
11:05-11:15 shhpat
S 11:15-12:15p (tried wake to sleep at 11:40)
E 1:10
A til 1:45
S 1:55-2:20 (asleep on own)
2:25-3 shhpat, then got up until 3:20
3:30-3:45 shhpat
S 3:50-4:15
E 4:20
A
E 6:10-6:35
S 6:50-11:45
E 11:50
Thursday:
S 12:15a-4:00a
E 4:15
S 4:35-7:15a
E 7:25
A til 9:05
S 9:15-9:50 (asleep on own)

And that brings us up to now    I thought I would try wake to sleep to see if that would help her make it past transitions, but I've only had the opportunity to do it twice so far, but I think I will keep trying to see if I can make any progress that way.  I do watch the clock as well as sleep cues when it gets close to nap time.  Since she falls asleep on her own within a few minutes of putting her down, I'm pretty sure I have the timing right.  Yesterday when she was closer to 2 hours of awake time I caught her a couple minutes too late, and that is when I got stuck having to do shhpat to get her to fall asleep for that nap.  I have tried to just change the scenery when she starts fussing or rubbing her eyes, but she is not interested in that, so I then know it's time for sleep. 
In regards to the 4 hour routine, are you saying that she should not necessarily be on a 4 hour at 5 1/2 months if she is EBF?  She will not take a bottle and is not on solids yet. 
If I could solve this nap problem with as little shhpat/pupd as possible I'd be ecstatic, as my back and neck are killing me from leaning over the side of her crib haha. 
Looking forward to hearing any advice you have for me!

[Kellyjs]

Oh I know exactly what you mean hun, I still have a crook in my back from those ssh/pat sessions!!

I know you mean well looking for the sleep cues, I really do, however those. A times are much too short hun, even for a high sleep needs LO. 1hr 20-30mins A is really for under 4mo and she's 5.5mths so really should be closer to 2.5hrs maybe even a little less if she is high sleep needs.

I think the reason you had to ssh/pat that first night is that she had closer to 3hrs last A there which might have been a tad too much, so I think a little better spacing of your day might help.

You've really set up a good basis with her learning that ssh/pat and pu/pd means it's time to sleep. W2s won't always be successful if the A time is too short I'm afraid.

Let's start with that first. A shall we as that's the one that's much too short. I would extend slowly so add on 15mins A first thing. Hold it for 3 days then extend the same again. She may get a bit grumpy as going down at that time can be learned behaviour. I didn't believe this either when I was told hun as we had sleepy cues galore, but please trust me ok? I used to just do something low-key like carrying her round the house pointing out all the things I needed to clean  .

I want to warn you though, once we start extending, she will get used to it and we definitely will need to extend again in time. The first nap might be long on some days (like you've had already), short on others but we really need to extend it as it's going to cause you more problems in the long run keeping it short. Tbh I'm surprised you haven't had EW with that short of an A first thing!

From what I can see, your bubba is like mine in that she can do a full A time after a short nap. And that too results in an UT nap. This reinforces the fact she can handle more A time than she's having.

What do you think? Doable? Fwiw I had a very similar routine with my DD. Ideally she should be on 2 good naps a day by now xx

Eta sorry I forgot to answer your question about bf didn't i? I'm not an expert hun, but no 4hr feedings for ebf bubbas is sometimes not achievable until they start solids around 5.5-6mo. Many stick with 3hrs for the day. It's so important to get as much milk into them during the day as possible (without creating a snacking habit), sometimes moving to 4hr feeding causes them to wake more at night as they've dropped a feed during the day. We like to think Tracy would've updated her book wrt bf if she was still with us xx

[mommykay410]

Thank you for the suggestions.  I will try keeping her up 15 extra minutes in the morning starting tomorrow and see if we can make any progress.  I got 1 hr 15 mins out of her for her second nap today, and I did W2S at 25 mins.  But her nap at 2:40 was only 30 mins, and that was with doing W2S again (however she sneezed and I think that woke her fully then).  I tried to put her down for an extra nap then at 4:30 and did shhpat from 4:40-5.  She was looking like she was going to doze off for a couple minutes but then became wide awake and was screeching at me so I put her in her swing to at least relax a bit.  I will put her down earlier for bed tonight after bath and hopefully she will sleep good tonight.  She normally only gets up once to eat between 2 and 4, but every once in a while she throws in an extra middle of the night wake up like last night. 
Would you be able to give me a sample schedule of what her day should look like ideally at this point with waking up around 7/7:15?

[Kellyjs]

I think we definitely have to consider she's HSN hun but time will tell. With that short of an A as I mentioned before should be causing you more issues than you have currently. I have no idea what a typical routine is, I can show you the link that lists many different sample routine but tbh that used to drive me up the wall trying to get DD to fit into it.

I think for you we should be aiming for a 2hr first A in time. Those other A's will stretch too eventually allowing you to get rid of the last CN as it does look like she's starting to resist it. For now, I'd keep with the w2s as you've obviously nailed it and try the extra 15mins in the morning tomorrow with the w2s again and let me know how it goes?

I'm much more cautious of a too long of an A to BT. It does happen during these nap transitions but I think as she's showing she's wanting to get rid of the CN we need to space the naps in the day better for you so we don't get OT at BT xx

[mommykay410]

Well I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but we have made progress!  On Friday she woke up at 6:25a, napped 8:30-9:30, 11:30-12:35p, 2:55-3:35 and then went to bed at 6:55.  Saturday she woke up at 6:30a, napped 8:35-10, 12p-1:15, and 3:25-3:50, then went to bed at 7:15.  And today she woke up at 7a, napped 9-10:10, 12:15p-1, 3:15-4:25 and went to sleep at 7:10.  So she seems to be doing well with the 2 hour A time.  Do you think I need to increase it more, or do you think she is where she should be now?  She does get cranky the last 10-15 minutes, so I don't think I could really push her much longer at this point without her getting OT. 

[Kellyjs]

That's sounding great, yay! I do think you might need to push the A time soon, but perhaps hold for another 3 days where younger and see how it goes? Xx

[mommykay410]

We're still doing good!  She did have a short one the other day because she got her other arm out of her swaddle and couldn't make it past the transition then, but for the most part she's been napping for around 1 hr 10 mins - 1.5 hr.  I don't think she's ready to push past the 2 hour A time yet because she seems to hit the OT quick after that, and then I end up having to shh-pat to get her to go down for the nap.  She has been quite cranky and hard to entertain this past week, so I didn't want to make it worse haha.  Thanks so much for all your help!

[Kellyjs]

This is amazing hun, go you! And really good to know that she prefers the lower than average A times for her age... That'll help a lot in the future xx

[mommykay410]

Apparently I spoke too soon!  Last night she was up 3 times and only slept for a total of 9 hours, and today she was back to taking half hour naps    I think tomorrow I will try to increase her A time then to 2 hr 15 mins and see if that gets her back on track.  Hoping that does the trick again!

[Kellyjs]

Unfortunately around now they like to increase their A time every few weeks or so! Just as we think we've sussed it....  xx

[mommykay410]

Ok, I'm at a loss again    Her schedule has been all over the place the past few days, and she has been cranky during her playtime for around the last 2 weeks it seems.  Sometimes she takes a nap over an hour, sometimes 35 mins, sometimes 50 mins.  Some nights she gets up twice to eat, but then last night she slept the whole night from 7:50p-6:30a.  I'd like her to at least make it to 7:00am if possible.  Here has been her EASY for this week (I'll just list her nap/sleep times and first and last E to make it easier.  She eats within 15 minutes of waking from each nap/sleep).  Hoping you can help!
Sunday night:
S 7:30p-11:40
Monday
S 12:35a-6:20
S 7:05-8:45
S 11:00-1:00p   
S 3:20-3:45
E 4:00, 6:25
S 7-8:20 (had to shhpat to fall asleep)
S 9-1:20a
S 2:15-6:40
Tuesday
E 7
S 8:55-10:05
S 12:10p-1:15 (shhpat to fall asleep)
S 3:40-4:05
E 4:15, 6:30
S 7-9
S 9:35-12:45a
S 1:25-6:30
Wednesday
E 7:10
S 8:45-10
S 12:15p-1:30
S 3:45-4:15
E 4:30, 6:30
S 7-3:30a
S 4:10-6:45
Thursday
E 7:15
S 9-9:35
S 10:50-11:25 (shhpat from 10:30-10:50)
S 1:50p-2:45
S 5:15-5:45 (shhpat from 4:55)
E 5:50, 7:15
S 7:50-6:30a
Friday (today)
E 6:50
S 8:40-9:15
S 11:15-12:05p
S 2:35-3:30

Thank you!!

[Kellyjs]

Fwiw hun, I tried and tried to get my DD on a 7am wu. Drove me a little nuts tbh, turns out her natural rhythm really is wu around 6.15-6.30.

I still might be tempted to push that first As though to see if it helps with a later wu. Even if she is HSN she may be on her way to dropping that CN.

I wonder if she's teething atm too? Mine was ever so grumpy when teething and still is! Have you checked out the wonder weeks website too, that saved my sanity more than once! Xx

[mommykay410]

I'm beginning to think that she is not HSN at all with how little she's been sleeping lately haha.  She always seemed to do best when sleeping 11+ hours at night, but lately she's only been getting around 10-10.5 and then taking short naps on top of it, so I'm afraid she will become chronically overtired eventually.  Today she woke up at 6am and then both of her naps were only 1/2 hour, and that was with 2.5 hour A time between each.  I have read the Wonder Weeks, but I should probably check in with it again just to see.  I thought maybe teething too, but there doesn't seem to be anything going on in there really.  I will keep increasing her A time to see if that makes a difference as long as she's not too super fussy when I extend it.  I'll keep you posted!